fear

[marlowe]

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

Being with a trans-girl is special! And it's never seized to fill me with awe and pride. It's the same as being with a cisgendered girl in many ways, ofcourse, but it's still SO beautiful and special... it fills you with warmth and pride in a totally unique way. You feel at HOME finally...

Hmmm... oh well... what more can I say? I better shut up :-)

H

We need a new sexual revolution. And just as "The Joy of Sex" carried the 60s to a wider public, so you will have to write and publish "The Joy of Transsex".

Seriously, it's good to read what you have to say, and your enthousiasm is infectious. Keep it coming!

M

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by marlowe

We need a new sexual revolution. And just as "The Joy of Sex" carried the 60s to a wider public, so you will have to write and publish "The Joy of Transsex".

Seriously, it's good to read what you have to say, and your enthousiasm is infectious. Keep it coming!

M

I, ofcourse, know, that u'r shitting me a lill bit here in a friendly way, Marlowe ;-)

Well, funnily, my sweet Fey (my First, my Goddess and all that) suggested something similar last weekend as we had out weekly cooking-day. "Honeeey, you really have a unique story to tell - u'r journey has been so interesting for us all... write a book, darling... many people are dreaming to do what you have done..." Yeah right :-)

I have, how ever, seriously been considering to throw myself into a self-financed PhD-study at Honkong University, where Dr. Sam Winther is having a very good program dealing with transgender-studies in Southeast Asia. But time is obviously lacking. I'd LOVE to do a Kinsey-report on transsexuality here in good old Indonesia. I actually already have it lined up :-)

But here I am, just a dumb lill brand-designer with a Master's degree in design and not the needed time :-(

But I admit, that it would be nice.

H

[sesame]

Hank:

considering to throw myself into a self-financed PhD-study at Honkong University, ... on transsexuality here in good old Indonesia

Hank, my man, go right ahead. Your research will be an original piece of work, a study with materials based on your first hand experience. It will not be the usual dry, drowsy sheaf of papers, with little relation to reality. Charge...

The courage that YOU show is NOTHING compared to the guts of a transsexual woman!

That statement is absolutely true. Men, who have achieved great things, who are really macho, even they feel nerous about what other people will think. The Transwomen wage a lifelong war on such concepts. Thats why I admire them so much. (I dont play pocket pool, though! )

[hankhavelock]

Originality I'm certain I'd be able to provide :-) Even something of value for a few wannabees out there who just need a bit of encouragement. Whether I could write something much longer than a forum posting that's bearable English reading is another matter - mind you, English is not my first language, and even though I do write fairly well in Danish, I don't have the elegant vernacular of writers such as you, Marlowe or Bionca.

[Bionca]

Hank, I have been kicking around the same idea - writing a book that is. I'm cutting my teeth with a friend by doing a little blog. If you need any help I'll be happy to.

[marlowe]

Originally Posted by Bionca

I'm cutting my teeth with a friend by doing a little blog.

Hey Bionca, is your blog up? Will you let us know about it?

M

[Bionca]

Originally Posted by marlowe

Hey Bionca, is your blog up? Will you let us know about it?

M

yup it's laughriotgirl.blogspot.com So far it my friend and I complaining about random stuff

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by Bionca

Hank, I have been kicking around the same idea - writing a book that is. I'm cutting my teeth with a friend by doing a little blog. If you need any help I'll be happy to.

Oh, should I decide to go ahead with it, that would surely be appreciated!

[Bionca]

That statement is absolutely true. Men, who have achieved great things, who are really macho, even they feel nerous about what other people will think. The Transwomen wage a lifelong war on such concepts. Thats why I admire them so much. (I dont play pocket pool, though! )[/QUOTE]

I don't buy that for a minute!! - hands above the table gents!!!

To be serious, I think this is part of the problem with seriously dating a trans* woman. Partly because guys are scared of what people think, and partly because by the time a TG is "full time" she's been through a little personal slice of hell. I know that I get angry, cranky, upset ... down right pissed when I hear about a friend whose date "isn't comfortable in public with her". I figure she's had to become comfortable in public with herself 24/7, and some guy can't muster the sack to spend a few hours??. It's that fear and the expectations on both sides of the date that make it difficult (at least in the West).

[sesame]

I don't have the elegant vernacular of writers such as you, Marlowe or Bionca

Hank! Come on, my friend, get off it.
I love to read your posts. They have substance.

[Well, most of Hankhavelock's posts have original material.
Some are too original, like the one about volcanic spunk
Still Hank is a good writer, he has clarity and balls to speak up]

[ila]

Originally Posted by Bionca

To be serious, I think this is part of the problem with seriously dating a trans* woman. Partly because guys are scared of what people think, and partly because by the time a TG is "full time" she's been through a little personal slice of hell. I know that I get angry, cranky, upset ... down right pissed when I hear about a friend whose date "isn't comfortable in public with her". I figure she's had to become comfortable in public with herself 24/7, and some guy can't muster the sack to spend a few hours??. It's that fear and the expectations on both sides of the date that make it difficult (at least in the West).

Not everyone is scared of what others think. I don't care at all what someone else would think or say if I was out with a TG.
My biggest concern would be for the girl when others would say "What the heck is she doing out with him"

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by Bionca

To be serious, I think this is part of the problem with seriously dating a trans* woman. Partly because guys are scared of what people think, and partly because by the time a TG is "full time" she's been through a little personal slice of hell.

Yep, part of the problem. But I sense that an equally big part of the problem is that they may be scared of themselves and their attraction - OMG!!!! Am I gay??? The question you encounter constantly.

[marlowe]

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

I, ofcourse, know, that u'r shitting me a lill bit here in a friendly way, Marlowe ;-)H

Well I was having some fun with "The Joy of Sex" thing but no, I'm not shitting you H. I meant what I said about your enthusiasm. And that's the point; your enthusiasm, and passion, and your experience will carry you a long way if you want to try and write something. It helps a lot if someone has something to say and believes in it. Your English is fine and you can always find someone to proof read and help with the fine tuning of language.
Like you say time is a big issue, I think it takes a lot of time and commitment to write something substantial. The Phd at Honkkong sounds a really interesting idea so I hope if it's what you want to do you can find a way to make it work.

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by marlowe

Well I was having some fun with "The Joy of Sex" thing but no, I'm not shitting you H. I meant what I said about your enthusiasm. And that's the point; your enthusiasm, and passion, and your experience will carry you a long way if you want to try and write something. It helps a lot if someone has something to say and believes in it. Your English is fine and you can always find someone to proof read and help with the fine tuning of language.
Like you say time is a big issue, I think it takes a lot of time and commitment to write something substantial. The Phd at Honkkong sounds a really interesting idea so I hope if it's what you want to do you can find a way to make it work.

Well, thank you again :-) Hmmm, I do admit that I feel I have a lot to say and tell about this my absolute favourite topic... I used to be quite active on a Danish forum as well. I was interesting to learn about trans-life in my old country - VERY different from here, I'd say.

What I appreciated about this here forum from the beginning, how ever, was the good-natured tone and what seemed to be a healthy interest in debating matters in a constructive way. And blissfully free of flaming and blaming. I also find it important that we're both girls and guys here sharing thoughts, wishes and experiences.

A PhD is currently not possible for me - simply because of the time such a project requires. When I said Kinsey-style study I was actually not kidding. And it would do a lot of good here to cast light on transsexual existense in this amazing land. It would, how ever, demand for not only a full time approach but also for substantial amounts of money as I would not be able to conduct all the necessary interviews myself - in other words, I'd have to hire and train assistants to actually go out there in the field and do the interviews. This is not per se impossible - I'm fairly well connected in the LGBT-community here, but it's just not realistic for me right now. Of course, I could (and probably would) limit my initial approach to the Jakarta area - a cute lill town of 23 mill. ppl :-) but it'd still be somewhat of a task...

Hmmm... but a little book? That does seem more manageable right now. And with a wee help from my friends... ;-)

Let's say I'll throw myself into it. What narrative concept would you then suggest? I can immediately say that my goal with such a publication (in which ever form it would have) would be exactly the same as here: via my own example to try to make the good folks realize that it is indeed possible to follow your heart and reap the fruits - that there really IS no reason to be afraid. It would also be a combination of illustrative examples and my own evolved "pocket-philosophies" which are obviously 100% empiric and not in any ways based on anything scientific.

I can also say that even though there would be some mildly juicy parts, then the sexual part of it would be very minor (just enuff to make the "dry stuff" go down as well :-)) Remember, that writing at a forum like this, where I'm among friends, is a totally different story than going public like that - and the last thing I'd want would be to enhance the lay-ppl's biases that we're a bunch of oversexed freaks :-) So the emotional content - which is btw also 1000 times more important to me than the sexual one - I can't BELIEVE I'm writing this...:-) - would be the focus.

What do you think?

H

[marlowe]

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

Hmmm... but a little book? That does seem more manageable right now. And with a wee help from my friends... ;-)

Let's say I'll throw myself into it. What narrative concept would you then suggest?

Well what you say here shows you already have a good feel for what you might do and IMO it fits. My thoughts: Yes, it's narrative, it's in the genre 'narrative nonfiction' or 'creative nonfiction', or to use a more old fashioned term 'memoir'. 'Narrative' is important: it should have a beginning, a middle, and an end; ie. arrival in Indonesia, encounters with transgender folk, revelation (where that journey has brought you to now).

I can immediately say that my goal with such a publication (in which ever form it would have) would be exactly the same as here: via my own example to try to make the good folks realize that it is indeed possible to follow your heart and reap the fruits - that there really IS no reason to be afraid.

Hmm... clearly this is the underlying theme and important, but in the first instance I think your goal should be to tell your story in a way that engages readers. How you describe experiences, encounters, discoveries, etc. is the substance. Simply banging on (excuse the pun) about your beliefs could become tiring.

It would also be a combination of illustrative examples and my own evolved "pocket-philosophies" which are obviously 100% empiric and not in any ways based on anything scientific.

That's the great thing about memoir, it can easily include episodes that are either more expository or persuasive in intention.

I can also say that even though there would be some mildly juicy parts, then the sexual part of it would be very minor (just enuff to make the "dry stuff" go down as well :-)) Remember, that writing at a forum like this, where I'm among friends, is a totally different story than going public like that - and the last thing I'd want would be to enhance the lay-ppl's biases that we're a bunch of oversexed freaks :-)

Agreed. You have an interesting viewpoint as a foreigner in Asia. Most peoples awareness, if any, is of Thailand as a ladyboy play4pay tourist paradise. I think it's to your advantage that your experiences are in Indonesia where the transgender scene is not so hyped.
Also I think it's tricky to pull off the sex stuff, unless what you wanted to write was in the 'sex confessional' genre. Mostly that genre is sensationalist and shallow. There was a book a few years ago called "The Surrender" by a ballet dancer called Toni Bentley which was about her discovery of, and passion for, anal sex. It made a bit of a splash and was described as a 'sodomy memoir'!

So the emotional content - which is btw also 1000 times more important to me than the sexual one - I can't BELIEVE I'm writing this...:-) - would be the focus.

Yes! That's why I think it's a good story to tell.

I reckon you should try to sketch out a structure; key events, encounters, people, that sort of thing, and see if it starts to form a sequence. That shouldn't take long. Grab a pencil, paper, a couple of Bintangs (do they still have that?), or better still some of that strong javanese coffee, find some shade and off you go.

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by marlowe

Grab a pencil, paper, a couple of Bintangs (do they still have that?)...and off you go.

U can count on it, mate!!! And they a colder than ever! :-)

Very good points, thank u - ok, I guess, I'll give it a go...

Cheers!

H

[soarbyrd]

This thread has taken an interesting turn!

Hank absolutely nailed it:

the emotional content - which is btw also 1000 times more important to me than the sexual one -

The emotional content -- that's really why I joined this forum. The pics are great, but I'm really much more interested in matters of the heart. Why do we humans behave the way we do? We are such amazing creatures once we step beyond the bogus boundaries of "thou shalt not."

This transsexual phenomenon is endlessly fascinating, and deserves a thorough scientific study as well as memoirs and documentaries. I agree with Hank that a proper study would take a lot of time and money to do it right. A memoir seems much more feasible, and after reading your posts, I'm convinced you could do a fabulous job, Hank! You already have a lot of fans eagerly awaiting your memoir.

The transsexual impulse has always been there in our species, and deserves a historical survey in its own right. But only recently have all the factors come together -- almost total freedom if you've got the money to pay for it; hormones; electrolysis; implants; reconstructive surgery -- to allow a man to transform himself into an amazing facsimile of a genetic woman... what is, for all practical purposes, an entirely new sex. And after all is said and done, when we look at a transwoman we are looking at the outward manifestation of an inner impulse. And it's this inner impulse that fascinates me so much. By any definition, a transwoman is an artist, and her canvas is her own body. Transwomen are taking body modification to unprecedented new heights of creativity.

What is this inner impulse that drives a person to go through all the time, money, pain and discouragement to complete this transformation? An amazing amount of dedication, determination, focus, and sheer grit is necessary to complete the task. Transwomen are admirable beyond compare.

Thanks to everybody for stimulating this and all the other discussions.

[TheSkronkDonkey]

Originally Posted by marlowe

Well what you say here shows you already have a good feel for what you might do and IMO it fits. My thoughts: Yes, it's narrative, it's in the genre 'narrative nonfiction' or 'creative nonfiction', or to use a more old fashioned term 'memoir'. 'Narrative' is important: it should have a beginning, a middle, and an end; ie. arrival in Indonesia, encounters with transgender folk, revelation (where that journey has brought you to now).

Yes! The structure can even be Campbellian. That is:

DEPARTURE (Beginning)

INITIATION (Middle)

RETURN (End)

Joseph Campbell was really writing about the emancipating function of mythology and the way it seemed to fit within this basic structure. It's more mental / spiritual than physical / literal, too -- i.e. you don't necessarily have to physically depart (though travel and displacement are recurrent metaphors in mythology) but you instead depart from your old beliefs and limitations as an individual, becoming more aware of the "larger world" (a Star Wars quote) around you, going through trials (and error ) in one's initiation and returning or reconciling with one's old self with the "boon" (a Campbell quote) of new knowledge and understanding, garnered directly through experience.

If the book was written in THAT manner, then it might read as a powerful statement about the liberating function of life for those bold enough to embrace it. In this respect, it would also RAISE AWARENESS in others as to their own dogmas and prejudices and ENCOURAGE them to move beyond their fears. I'm sure Hank already has this intuitive awareness and would accordingly make an excellent storyteller. If you've really got a story to tell, the book should almost write itself.

Anyway, there have been some really insightful and articulate replies in this thread, all coming from unique angles. This is the sort of thread that validates the "Shemale-Chat" forum and the board's continued importance beyond titillation.