Some scary facts

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by Bionca

Tal,

The all to frequent mis-gendering of trans women, being described as a "fetish" (sexual attraction to objects or body parts not conventionally viewed as being sexual in nature), and the ever popular "real woman" comments.

Lately the tone has changed here - and even among a particular group of trans*women there now seems to be an acceptance of fetish, castration and porn-selling as the comme-il-faute - as the modus operandum that is to be accepted as completely ok... I can promise you that I've made some real enemies here over the last weeks simply because I don't buy into all that trans*minimalizing crap.

And when the trans*women themselves start to attack me for what I consider quite reasonable and learned approaches to what a social approach to transsexuality should be, then I too wonder what I'm doing here.

The mix of ppl is changing here - less educated and more militant folks with particular agendas are entering, apparently. Unfortunately I've not from a single one of them met any opinions that I could relate to as particularily trans*realistic.

So maybe it's time to "pull our pants up" (no pun intended) and in my case to stop worrying so much what's going on at a particular forum that's clearly changing focus and habitus and in stead move back into the real life which in my case is luckily and abundantly peopled by the most amazing trans*women in the world.

Our "ancient" views are hardly gonna be missed here any more... ;-)

H

[randolph]

Well Hank, you are in the enviable position of being in an environment where you can enjoy the beauty and love of transsexual women. Most of us have to rely on our fantasies for the experience.

[Bionca]

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

Lately the tone has changed here - and even among a particular group of trans*women there now seems to be an acceptance of fetish, castration and porn-selling as the comme-il-faute - as the modus operandum that is to be accepted as completely ok... I can promise you that I've made some real enemies here over the last weeks simply because I don't buy into all that trans*minimalizing crap.

And when the trans*women themselves start to attack me for what I consider quite reasonable and learned approaches to what a social approach to transsexuality should be, then I too wonder what I'm doing here.

The mix of ppl is changing here - less educated and more militant folks with particular agendas are entering, apparently. Unfortunately I've not from a single one of them met any opinions that I could relate to as particularily trans*realistic.

So maybe it's time to "pull our pants up" (no pun intended) and in my case to stop worrying so much what's going on at a particular forum that's clearly changing focus and habitus and in stead move back into the real life which in my case is luckily and abundantly peopled by the most amazing trans*women in the world.

Our "ancient" views are hardly gonna be missed here any more... ;-)

H

Hank

Not sure what to say. I think your participation is quite valuable and you have a perspective that is lacking on many sites where guys like you talk about gals like me.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

In order to accomplish accomplish something you have to do something, you seem to be a strong person, morally and intellectually, although a bit rash at times, which isn't alwasy a bad thing.

Did you see the movie "Milk", (i haven't) but i hear the main character was a young gay man who wanted gays to be recognized as a minority, he started his political career in his late twenties, and got elected in his late forties, it took him 20 years to get to the point where he could do something, he was of the ultra gay type, and still he overcame and won in the end, he didn't quit when the going got a little rough, he took his lumps and persevered, quitter do not accomplish anything.

So Bionca, ARE YOU A QUITTER?

So you have to repeat youself over and over, big deal a waist of a bit of spit, or a few keystrokes on your keyboard, if that little effort is too much for you then by all means quit, you don't have the guts to even try to change the situation even here where averybody is pro tg in a porn type of view, but still pro tg.

But i don't think you are that weak, you may be facing some personnal problems, but then who doesn't, the Bionca i have read so far is far more of a fighter than a quitter, she speaks her mind, so where is that Bionca that i have come to "know" and respect? Even if i don't always agree with her views.

Before i read your post in my "Post op reason" thread i was a bit more ignorant about trans related problems, you showed me a side i had never tought of or imagined, ok i did start that thread to learn more about t-girls and i did, i had an open mind, but others read your ansewer and the other's and some don't objectify tg as much, it may not be that much, but it IS something, a start, a small step, but then, even the longest trip starts with one step.

It is your choice to quit or not to quit, but i don't think you should.

If you choose to stick around, remember that you do attract more flies with honey than vinegar.

JohnDowe.

[Bionca]

Funny you should mention Harvy Milk - you know he was assassinated by a hetero guy who didn't really do the time for it? I understand what you are saying, and I appreciate the sentiment. I just don't want to be a martyr or another statistic on that link I posted.

As far as fighting/standing up for myself. I did that, I do that, and I am happy to educate folks in my daily face-to-face life. I expect a level of confusion and uninformed comments from most people. However, I have higher expectations for guys who *claim* to respect/fuck/lust over/desire/whatever trans women. Having to educate guys on why "real woman" is problematic *HERE* is itself a problem. Having to be the one to point that out is a problem - when there are way more guys who know better here than there are trans women willing to address that.

This is a problem because it ALWAYS opens up conversation where I am put in a position to justify my identity and my experience and my understanding vs. someones memory of High School Biology class. That is not fun for me, that is not comfortable, and that does little to convince me that I'm wrong in my mistrust of men who claim to like gals like me. It makes me laugh to think someone would tell a French Man what France is really like based on a school Geography project (it is really the same thing when people tell me what being Trans is, in spite of me disagreeing).

Honey and vinegar both have uses. I'm not always trying to attract files - sometimes the pesky guy needs swatted.

[johndowe]

HI there.

Before i read your reply on the "Post Op Reason" thread i started, i was ok abou t the word "shemale" after reding it, i'm not so confortable about it, because of you, i realized that it is disrespectfull.

And i understand that most of the guys here are objectifying girls like you, but aren't guys that go to strip clubs, buy men's magazines objectifying women also? and those women and girls like you, aren't they objectifying themselves intentionally, to make a living?

The MARTHYR?

The only ones that want to be marthys are terrorists and in the end do they accomplish that, maby amongst their own, maby, but not anywhere else, also playing the victim may get some sympathy, but only for you and very little for your cause, and it IS weak, when i get in a confrontational situation, i do my best to do so form a position of strenght, cause if you start from a position of weakness, well winning is almost not an option.

When i said: "You attract more flies with honey than vinegar" i didn't mean attracting dates, i meant attracting people to your "cause", but i understand about the swatting.

Also i almost forgot that i ALMOST had a 1 night stand wit a girl like you, i had spent the evening with her, and spent quite a bit on the drinks, then at her place she wanted to charge me $50.00 to have sex with her, i didn't expect her to put out because i had spent some money on her, but if she was ok with spendong more time with me at her place, great, but i objected to paying her for sex, and the fact that i only had $30-35 left, so i left as she said that ALL the girls charged, well guess what i was put off and i never went back there.

AND when i left the club with her i went out the front door and i wasn't ashamed to be with her, and everybody that was near to the club knew that it was a tgirl club, and she was one of the nicest looking girls there.

So, the problem isn't just the guys objectifying the girls, but also the girls objectifying themselves, your goal shouldn't be to try to change the guys, but to get the message out that tgirls as other women aren't sex objects but are only human beeings that have feelings and asperations, and in order to make a living objectify themselves, and as such should not be disrespected or looked down upon.

I hope you will continue your "vigil" but i do respect the fact that it is your decision, i have said what i had to say, i will ansewer you, should you ask me something, but i will mo longer pester you about it.

JohnDowe.

[Bionca]

Originally Posted by johndowe

HI there.

Before i read your reply on the "Post Op Reason" thread i started, i was ok abou t the word "shemale" after reding it, i'm not so confortable about it, because of you, i realized that it is disrespectfull.

And i understand that most of the guys here are objectifying girls like you, but aren't guys that go to strip clubs, buy men's magazines objectifying women also? and those women and girls like you, aren't they objectifying themselves intentionally, to make a living?

The MARTHYR?

The only ones that want to be marthys are terrorists and in the end do they accomplish that, maby amongst their own, maby, but not anywhere else, also playing the victim may get some sympathy, but only for you and very little for your cause, and it IS weak, when i get in a confrontational situation, i do my best to do so form a position of strenght, cause if you start from a position of weakness, well winning is almost not an option.

When i said: "You attract more flies with honey than vinegar" i didn't mean attracting dates, i meant attracting people to your "cause", but i understand about the swatting.

Also i almost forgot that i ALMOST had a 1 night stand wit a girl like you, i had spent the evening with her, and spent quite a bit on the drinks, then at her place she wanted to charge me $50.00 to have sex with her, i didn't expect her to put out because i had spent some money on her, but if she was ok with spendong more time with me at her place, great, but i objected to paying her for sex, and the fact that i only had $30-35 left, so i left as she said that ALL the girls charged, well guess what i was put off and i never went back there.

AND when i left the club with her i went out the front door and i wasn't ashamed to be with her, and everybody that was near to the club knew that it was a tgirl club, and she was one of the nicest looking girls there.

So, the problem isn't just the guys objectifying the girls, but also the girls objectifying themselves, your goal shouldn't be to try to change the guys, but to get the message out that tgirls as other women aren't sex objects but are only human beeings that have feelings and asperations, and in order to make a living objectify themselves, and as such should not be disrespected or looked down upon.

I hope you will continue your "vigil" but i do respect the fact that it is your decision, i have said what i had to say, i will ansewer you, should you ask me something, but i will mo longer pester you about it.

JohnDowe.

I'm glad you realize that "shemale" is not a generally accepted universally loved term by trans women.

I don't have any issue at all with sex work. If the women has a free choice to get into and maintain that line of work, and men are willing to pay for the products/services - everyone wins. Part of the issue is that most people ONLY know trans women from porn. Not because there aren't trans gals doing other stuff, because that isn't the case. So unlike GGs TGs are only encountered in one specific way, there is no balance to maintain realism. Part of the role trans women have to take (and many many have) is to educate - but without people willing to listen and learn no amount of education is going to work. Also, at some point the educated really must start to help do the education.

Martyrs are simply people who die for a cause who are then used at a rallying point. Mr Milk's death absolutely made him a martyr - the gay political movement was galvanized by his murder and the results of the trial. We have plenty of murdered trans women, I don't particularly need or want to fill that role.

I wasn't talking about dating with my "honey and vinegar" comment. I was talking about how I address the guys here. I'm not always going to be the voice of unquestioning support and comfort. Sometimes frustration and even anger needs to be heard before people understand that something is hurtful.

Like I said, gals making money and guys spending money isn't my issue. Assuming that women of any type who do sex work are less worthy of respect or are simply objects is a problem. A common problem, but still a problem.

Also, I'm curious what you think I have been doing if not trying to get the message out that trans women are human beings? Part of that IS changing how men see trans women - pointing out how attitudes, reflected in words, contributes to an often particularly dangerous world for trans women to navigate.

[Jenae LaTorque]

To start off with; I agree pretty much with Robert Heinlein's quote:

"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense. (Hurting yourself is not sinful - just stupid)."


and one of his for Bionca:

"Being right too soon is socially unacceptable."


So you do have a "mountain to climb" and what better place than here where at least some of us have some empathy with what you are saying. Yup, I am a Bionca fan now. It's gonna take some time to get it right. Look how long it took to get where we are today on the "racial thing". We are not at the top of the mountain there yet, but we, as a society, are a lot closer than we were in the 1950s. And we need our pioneers who blaze the way. It is important that we have those who stand by their convictions and inspire others to re-examine their beliefs. I realize that we have some bad apples in this category ie. Hitler, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Pat Robertson but those who endure are the ones that count. Like Jesus of Nazareth, Ghandi, Thomas Jefferson, Charles Darwin, etc. All of them had their detractors, but who remembers their names. So please Bionca, "endeavor to persevere!"

Death Penalty? Yes, for those who have shown a complete disregard for human life themselves and there is absolutely no doubt that they are guilty. The only other option I could see for such, would be to have a escape proof reservation or island where we could just toss em in and let them live, or not live, in a society of like minded folks. No justice will ever bring back a murdered person, it's not about revenge. It is what can we do to protect society from further acts by these murderers. If it is by killing them in turn, then I would say so be it. Have there been miscarriages of justice in the US where innocent people were executed. Read:

http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/DP.html

and you will see that like many other issues, misrepresentations are made by the anti death penalty people regarding the actual facts.

To SweetCharmer who doesn't believe the death Penalty "gets us anywhere", I say that at least they won't kill again. And there are many cases of released criminal offenders who commit the very same crime they were NOT rehabilitated of, including murderers.

Speaking of Crime and Punishment; I read a SciFi story once where once a criminal was convicted of a crime, a mind block was put in his brain that suppressed all upper brain activity. The convict was able to function only on a very simple level where he was able to perform some simple work that would defray the expense of his incarcaration. One month before the end of his sentance, the mind block would be removed and he would spend his last month in solitary with periodic sessions with a therapist. He would have that time to reflect on the fact that he had just lost a portion of his life that he would never have any memory of. So a man who received a ten year term at the age of 20 would be 20 years old one day, and thirty the next, at least in his memory. Think about the deterrant that would be! Thoughts anyone?

[johndowe]

Originally Posted by Bionca

I'm glad you realize that "shemale" is not a generally accepted universally loved term by trans women.

I don't have any issue at all with sex work. If the women has a free choice to get into and maintain that line of work, and men are willing to pay for the products/services - everyone wins. Part of the issue is that most people ONLY know trans women from porn. Not because there aren't trans gals doing other stuff, because that isn't the case. So unlike GGs TGs are only encountered in one specific way, there is no balance to maintain realism. Part of the role trans women have to take (and many many have) is to educate - but without people willing to listen and learn no amount of education is going to work. Also, at some point the educated really must start to help do the education.

Martyrs are simply people who die for a cause who are then used at a rallying point. Mr Milk's death absolutely made him a martyr - the gay political movement was galvanized by his murder and the results of the trial. We have plenty of murdered trans women, I don't particularly need or want to fill that role.

I wasn't talking about dating with my "honey and vinegar" comment. I was talking about how I address the guys here. I'm not always going to be the voice of unquestioning support and comfort. Sometimes frustration and even anger needs to be heard before people understand that something is hurtful.

Like I said, gals making money and guys spending money isn't my issue. Assuming that women of any type who do sex work are less worthy of respect or are simply objects is a problem. A common problem, but still a problem.

Also, I'm curious what you think I have been doing if not trying to get the message out that trans women are human beings? Part of that IS changing how men see trans women - pointing out how attitudes, reflected in words, contributes to an often particularly dangerous world for trans women to navigate.

Hi there.

That IS what i tought you were doing and by your posts i was under the impression you were leaving, and i tought it was a mistake for you to leave because of the positive effect you have had on many people in this forum, follow the threads you posted an you will see, i and they have learned from your posts and underatand trans women better, a little good here, a little good there, it adds up, you may not change the world over nitght but you continue to educate people (subtily, excuse my french again) and other trans women do it too, and attitudes will change.

JohnDowe.