Posting Of Pay Site Images - All Read.

Jenae LaTorque · #1 10-09-2009

The quote is from the character "Frenchy" in The Cotton Club movie.

So I did some research on copyrights, and I believe I now have a better grasp of the situation. Technically you are pretty much right, concerning the issue of copyright infringement, but I still think you are "barking up the wrong tree."

There are still a lot of "grey" areas in the matter of copyright infringement over the internet. You have several problems with your case:

1. Your Subject Matter - Your area is pornography, and to make matters worse, it is transgender porn which is even more repugnant to a large segment of the public. True, this should not matter in terms of the application of the law, but you know, as we all do, that justice is oftentimes not served when it comes to T-people. I don't expect that you will find a lot of sympathy out there for your plight. You will find more here as long as you are civil.

2. Proving Your Case - I can see where you may have a hard time proving damages here when you already have a multitude of porn images elsewhere availible on the internet for down loading free of charge. When it comes down to the numbers, the number of downloads here will be dwarved by the daily number of downloads at the original page. You will also need to prove that a significant number would have joined your site if they were unable to download the pics here.

As part of researching this subject I had to check out the Harley thread since I am not a fan of hers. And, I found that there are not really that many pics there. I am going to assume that there were a lot of them since you are bitchin' about it. That leads me to the conclusion that you have already coerced the site authorities into removing a great many of the disputed pics. If you did this solely on your own as a moderator, I suggest that there may be a "conflict of interest here." This would be further evidenced by the fact that I am aware of several threads where there are sets represented by many more pics than the 15 pic limit, and they have not been pruned or removed entirely.

3. The Question of Who is Liable - You suggested or threatened that you could hold us, the members of the forum, responsible for the copyright infringement. You know, or your lawyers should know, that this would be a very difficult road to follow since we are not the owners of the site. Now there are a whole lot of legal issues concerning that..... so, I won't go into that since you have lawyers for that. Suffice it to say, that most forum members have stayed within the requirements of the forum rules. You may have a case against members who posted pictures that they obtained as a member of your sites, but I think your case against those of us who simply posted pictures that are freely available is very weak at best, almost nil in fact.

:D Now I have a question here. By posting on here, did you solicit our opinions, and are you thus obligated to compensate me for my advice if you use it in any way to form your legal position. If you feel so, I would accept a free membership to the SM Club site

ladyboyadmirer · #2 10-09-2009

Hello Seanchai, Jenae, Violet lightning and fellow members,
I think I was the second to read the post from Seanchai and I already thought....this is going to cause a lot of discussion.
Firstly, I think you guys are being a little unfair to Seanchai. His initial post was polite and certainly not flexing the usual muscles that other site owners do with threatening legal action to the forum and its members and this ridiculous FBI crap statement ( Im sure the FBI have other things on their minds) ...it was merely a request stating his concerns and I think words like snarkey, rude, feeling affronted etc., uncalled for. Hey people, isn't this what a forum is for? Seanchai has the right to voice his opinions and of course his 'tone' is going to match the replies. Im sure none of us want to ruin the good work done by Grooby and indeed any other producer, so it would be in all our interests to settle this in a amicable manner. I think only sensible dialogue will bring a solution without any animosity. I see that you are all educated people, so a slanging match would be somewhat out of place.
Im surprised that the moderators here have not made a comment regarding this topic...after all, the fact that the post is in the 'sticky' section, proves it's of a legitimate nature...so lets hear your views from above please.

PS. Just for the record Jenae and Violet lightning, Im on your side but 'lest we forget'...without the pioneers like Seanchai, this forum wouldn't exist and we would all be still just dreaming of tgirls like before the internet era.
Regards to all Lba

seanchai · #3 10-09-2009

Hi Jenae
I'm not going to get into a long and lengthy debate about copyright laws. I don't want to go that route, I know my rights and the rights of all producers which is why their is a DMCA law and why servers, site owners and ISP's are so strict about. What you "think" is the law is frankly and with due respect, irrelevant as is your "grey areas".

I'll answer a couple of your more pertinent points but please read the post in response to Violet above this

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque
1. [B

Your Subject Matter[/B] - Your area is pornography, and to make matters worse, it is transgender porn which is even more repugnant to a large segment of the public.

Barely needs response. This is absolutely rubbish and irrelevant. Copyright is copyright. We work within the boundaries of the law and have regsitered at copyright offices, our names are Trademarked. Your point makes no legal sense at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

Proving Your Case - I can see where you may have a hard time proving damages here when you already have a multitude of porn images elsewhere availible on the internet for down loading free of charge. When it comes down to the numbers, the number of downloads here will be dwarved by the daily number of downloads at the original page. You will also need to prove that a significant number would have joined your site if they were unable to download the pics here.

Again, complete wrong and irrelevant. Copyright infringement is just that and each image that has been infringed is copyrighted. We wouldn't have to prove anything, having the screen capture is simply enough. For sites like this, (user uploaded) the DMCA Safe Harbour law protects them (for the time being) as long as the owner removes the content within a set time, upon notification from the copyright holder. Failure to do so, or if it was found that the owner uploaded the content themselves, would be an infringement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

As part of researching this subject I had to check out the Harley thread since I am not a fan of hers. And, I found that there are not really that many pics there. I am going to assume that there were a lot of them since you are bitchin' about it. That leads me to the conclusion that you have already coerced the site authorities into removing a great many of the disputed pics. If you did this solely on your own as a moderator, I suggest that there may be a "conflict of interest here." This would be further evidenced by the fact that I am aware of several threads where there are sets represented by many more pics than the 15 pic limit, and they have not been pruned or removed entirely

Correct, full sets of Harley were removed, 40+ images from Khloe Hart (per set), links to stolen content sites with full videos.
There is no conflict of interest, we both want to provide this site with good legal content, to generate discussion and fan base. The site owners and myself, would like people to join the sites, which in turn, keeps us able to produce content and the owners to pay the server fees in keeping this running.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

You suggested or threatened that you could hold us, the members of the forum, responsible for the copyright infringement. You know, or your lawyers should know, that this would be a very difficult road to follow since we are not the owners of the site. Now there are a whole lot of legal issues concerning that..... so, I won't go into that since you have lawyers for that.

Come on, it's not going to get to that point. A free site owner would kick the offending people or close the site before getting lawyers involved and it's not something I would ever want to do. However, for clarification purposes, the site's rules are also irrelevant. I could point you to sites whose rules are that you can only show full Hollywood movies, in HD for free ... and that's illegal! Technically, we could go after any 1 person posting our content, request their IP and information from the server ... blah ... blah ... blah but I'd much rather produce porn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

:D Now I have a question here. By posting on here, did you solicit our opinions, and are you thus obligated to compensate me for my advice if you use it in any way to form your legal position. If you feel so, I would accept a free membership to the SM Club site

Frankly, I had no interest in your opinion on this matter legally. The copyright laws are set. I'm not the owner of Shemale Club as much as I'd like to be. Apart from the top 10 links on that list, all the other companies are part of a group of producers with whom we work with on initiatives like this. I did put the wrong link up, their actual link is : http://shemaleclub.com/ and well worth investing a months membership on.

I do however, welcome an open dialogue. Legal issues are not really opening to question, take them up with your politicians.

Thanks

ladyboyadmirer · #4 10-09-2009

That reply must have taken you ages to compile Seanchai, some interesting facts there...thanks for your time

seanchai · #5 10-09-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by ladyboyadmirer

That reply must have taken you ages to compile Seanchai, some interesting facts there...thanks for your time

It's not the first time I've answered the same questions.
Thanks

Excaliborg · #6 10-09-2009

seanchai you sound very much like the RIAA who blame the end users of a product for the loss of business. consider this, i can do a google search right now for just about anything and i can guarentee you i will find what i am looking for without having to pay. whose fault is that? mine or yours? as a provider of a specific kind of content it is upon YOU to secure you data or IP(Interllectual Properrty) or whatever you want to call it. dont go after us poor plebs. go after the saucy knaves who are stealing your IP. it is not my fault that more that more than three pics of any given galllery is available on the internet. it is YOUR responsibility to ensure what is available to us poor plebs.

sure you can enforce a three pic rule on your own site via tours. as Jenae LaTorque said(i think), we help to promote your paysites.

now as to copyright. you have to PROVE what the INTENTION is. not what i'm actually doing. read them laws again. just because im searching for pics of shemales or tgirls (reminds me of a thread in the Shemale Chat section, they are women not just objects of sexual desire) does not mean im going to your site with the purpose of stealimg. i want to jack off to something that i find appealing. so im going to go where the freely availabel content is, not to a forum that only allows three pics of any given set.

so it comes down to this. if you want to protect your content, only make three examples available per set availanle to the public. do not have teaser sets of nine, twelve or fifteen examples available. once again the onus is upon YOU to protect your content. not me, not Jenae LaTorque or any other member of this forum.

to quote you "...Legal issues are not really opening to question, take them up with your politicians." why involve politicians? this is not a polical matter. secure your IP, make your data is protected. dont make us the scapegoat.

violet lightning and Jenae LaTorque(she has such nawty eyes

)

Bionca · #7 10-09-2009

While I have obviously mixed feelings about the adult industry, I have to go with Seanchai here. I doubt there would be very many times when this is the case.

The porn industry does not have huge margins to begin with unless you are Playboy, Hustler, Vivid, or Private. Grooby may be the big fish, but they are still in a tiny pond. We are being nicely asked to actually support the industry that has made this site possible. We can join a pay site and/or stop snagging and posting their stuff. Simple really.

If Seanchai's request was unreasonable, you bet I'd be on it like stink on a skunk. However, I think this is a very realistic compromise.

seanchai · #8 10-09-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Excaliborg

seanchai you sound very much like the RIAA who blame the end users of a product for the loss of business. consider this, i can do a google search right now for just about anything and i can guarentee you i will find what i am looking for without having to pay. whose fault is that? mine or yours? as a provider of a specific kind of content it is upon YOU to secure you data or IP(Interllectual Properrty) or whatever you want to call it. dont go after us poor plebs. go after the saucy knaves who are stealing your IP. it is not my fault that more that more than three pics of any given galllery is available on the internet. it is YOUR responsibility to ensure what is available to us poor plebs.

I'm not blaming anyone for our loss of business, I'm moving with the times and the current times indicate that this is what is necessary to protect the business as a whole. If you had any interest in the future of TS porn and the models, you'd respect that.
Pretty much with searching and hard work, you will find stolen content, we spend time and energy trying to delete and restrict access to stolen content so that the average surfer will get better value for his time and money, by spending on one of our sites and helping perpetuate more content.
I've already stated more than 3 pics can be posted if it's from content we give away freely, but not from membership area content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Excaliborg

sure you can enforce a three pic rule on your own site via tours. as Jenae LaTorque said(i think), we help to promote your paysites.

I can enforce a ZERO infringement of our copyright on any site or server. As you rightly paraphrased me, "you do help to promote our paysites" which is why we're not enforcing that rule as we've done on some sites.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Excaliborg

now as to copyright. you have to PROVE what the INTENTION is. not what i'm actually doing. read them laws again. just because im searching for pics of shemales or tgirls (reminds me of a thread in the Shemale Chat section, they are women not just objects of sexual desire) does not mean im going to your site with the purpose of stealimg. i want to jack off to something that i find appealing. so im going to go where the freely availabel content is, not to a forum that only allows three pics of any given set.

I think you need to read the laws and my posts again before you jump on your high horse. It's not about searching or viewing pics - it's about posting them. Any server that hosts the photos, without permission, is in breach of copyright laws.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Excaliborg

so it comes down to this. if you want to protect your content, only make three examples available per set availanle to the public. do not have teaser sets of nine, twelve or fifteen examples available. once again the onus is upon YOU to protect your content. not me, not Jenae LaTorque or any other member of this forum.

a) It doesn't come down to this. Abide by rules set by producers or expect to see material from those producers removed from all sites other than those they've expressly given content to.

b) I've stated, that they can use the sample photos ... the 3 image rule, is for those from the website members area. If in doubt, don't post as you more than likely, got them from illegal postings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Excaliborg

to quote you "...Legal issues are not really opening to question, take them up with your politicians." why involve politicians? this is not a polical matter. secure your IP, make your data is protected. dont make us the scapegoat.

Negative. How ridiculous, a shopkeeper should lock up his wares because if he doesn't then he's responsible for people stealing them and the thieves are the scapegoats.
My point was, if you have problems with the current copyright laws, take them up with politicians and not with us. We act within the current laws and all we're asking, is for you to do the same.

Jenae LaTorque · #9 10-10-2009

OK! You have cleared up some matters. You are not against us posting 15 pics from those pages that you have already made available on the net for free. OK You are against people who post material from the members section of the sites you are representing here. OK Perfecty understandable and justified. When we are talking about such material, and you wish to set the limit at three, I say fine. Not that it affects non-member me, but it isn't something I would do anyway due to ethical considerations. I am sure there is a clause in your member agreement prohibitting such behavior. I can't find any excuse for such contract breaking save that of sub-normal intelligence.

Even with that being said, I still believe that "you are barking up the wrong tree." But then, that is okay as long as you are barking up the other more likely trees also. I think this forum would have to be a very minor part of your problems. I think you would have to agree that the entry into the Tgirl market by big players like HUSTLER has cost you far more. The last five years have seen an explosion in the number of Tgirl related internet sites. When such an event occurs in any business, usually it is because the demand is there and there is money to be made. When this reaches a certain point where supply exceeds demand, then there will be a leveling out. Some producers will fall, while most others will have to become more efficient to survive. Also, we are now in a world-wide recession and perhaps you are feeling a crunch between the effects of that and a reduced demand due to the increased competition. And I have noticed that the competition is increasing not only in quantity, but in quality. There have never been so many truly attractive Tgirls on the net as there are now. No longer are photoshots like something that could pass for home candids or crappy movie stills. There are pics out there that approach closely to the standards as set by PLAYBOY. There are even some who are retouching their photos, like PLAYBOY, to such an extent that it is hard to recognize the silky smooth skinned model as the same one you just saw in another set with an acne pitted face. Speaking of Playboy; has anyone in the western world ever tried to emulate them by having a Tgirl club complete with Tgirl hostesses?

So here you are. And here I am. I have been looking at the numbers. Lol I am a great believer in numbers. When people say this is so or that is so, I want to see the hard data; the numbers. Home page says we have 35, 969 members, 4,371 of whom are active members. Now I am unsure of what constitutes an active member as opposed to a non-active member. Perhaps one of you moderators or SSL could explain this distinction. Furthermore, it says there are 72 users online-18 members and 54 guests. Looking at the stats for where these members are currantly viewing, we see that the large majority of them are in the freebies section. So we can see that only 25% of those viewing at one point in time are members. It would be interesting to know how many visitors we get a day. Now it is true that one is not able to download pics unless one is a member and that is limited until you get enough points to where you are allowed more than you need or want. All in all, I don't see where those numbers can support a contention that you are losing much business here. Now links to video sites may well be a whole differant story. Visitors would be able to use those links to go there just as much as members. And if as you say, some of these links do lead to sites with stolen content; would it not be possible to create some kind of software linked to a database of known thief sites that would alert moderators to their posting, or even better, disallow the posting at all. Yes, I know that software doesn't grow on trees

In summation, I still think this tree ain't worth barking up. But I really would not be bothered with a total limit of five or so pics from any one shoot. Because when you get down to it; there is so much availible free for the downloading out there, that there is no need for this forum to be a pic supplier. Five should be enough to convey the essence of any single shoot of a Tgirl. I am hereby assuming that limit. No longer will I post more than 5 pics from any one shoot. If they want more, than they can darn well go search them out on the FHG sites like I do.

P.S. The whole thing about my legal fee was a joke - that is why there are the smilies with it. Perhaps you are not in a receptive mood for humor at this point in time. Well, that's OK too! I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors.

"When the wolf gnaws, smile." - Robert Heinlein

violet lightning · #10 10-09-2009

Thanks for answering all my questions seanchai. It all sounds reasonable, and it seems like your really after a few major offenders who don't respect the money and effort that goes into actually producing original material and maintaining websites.

I hope you don't mind a few more thoughts/questions/observations as this seems like a good opportunity to learn more.
Are you a moderator or owner of this site? Is this forum connected in some way to commercial sites, or was it established for members to enjoy and share pics, etc?
Is there a legal precedent for forums like this to exist?

Also, an example of an earlier point: I visited a site earlier today,(juicyshemales.com) that is a freebie-link page, and there were two different sets of Carla Novais from shemaleclub that had 20 pics each. (thats 40 free pics from just two sets on a page with hundreds of free sets--and they change daily!) Multiply that by the hundreds of other freebie pages and your talking thousands of free pics daily. Does releasing so many free photos hurt yours (and others) business much? How do you differentiate between the free pics and the ones that are on the pay-site?
It also seems like the free pics are so good, you would have just as many people being satisfied with those as being tempted to join. (I would assume this is not the case or you wouldn't be doing it)

Does any problem arise when free sites like this begin getting "too good"?
(The content is excellent, traffic goes up, the word gets out and perhaps people start wondering if we are cutting into their business....?)

Are you generally ok with this site and others like it as long as they don't post whole sets or proprietary material?

I won't belabor the point. These are just a few thoughts and questions. As I said, I get where you are coming from, and I believe your concerns are legitimate. I just hope you can solve the problems without becoming too draconian.
I enjoy your sites as well as others, but I enjoy this site very much too.

(Note-in the time it took to compose this, you answered or addressed some of my questions already in other posts, so forgive some of the points)
It sounds like you are ok with this site and members, as long as we follow some basic rules...and that seems reasonable enough to me.
Now you just have to convince everyone else!

johndowe · #11 10-10-2009

Hi there.

One thing that HAS to be said is that everything that is posted on the internet becomes de facto public domain, so copyrights are a bit of a non issue, if you don't wany your pics to be shared, don't post them on the internet in the first place, free or not, because they will always be someone that will resent having to pay for something and not be "allowed" to do what they want with it, which is the real issue here.

The same is true for software, what is it we realy pay for? The disks, the manuals, the box? No we pay for the software, and since software is data, and easily copyable, why should i have to pay for 3 identicle copies of a piece of software for my 3 computers? I shouldn't, i paid for the software and i should have the "right" to do with it as i please, within reason of course, but again if you don't want others to have your software, don't publish it or accept the FACT that there will be some copy, even if you put all kinds of copy protections, someone ALWAYS finds a way to overide them.

JohnDowe.

johndowe · #12 10-10-2009

Hi there.

I live in Canada and the gov had pretty heft tax on cigarettes and after a new increase of the cigarette tax the people revolted and a big black market cigarette "market" opened up to the point that the gov lost more revenue due to the black market and removed the new tax, but the dammage was done and the cigarette black market (from native tribes) is still booming not as well as when it was at it's strongest but it is better than it was before the gov put the new (but removed) cogarette tax, so actions often have unforseen concequences.

Remember the OLD lawer addage; don't ask a question you don't already know the ansewer to? The reason is simple in a courtroom, if you ask a question you don't know the ansewer to, you may very well blow your own case out of the water.

The same principle applied to the Germans in WW2 they attacked England to erode their morale, but to the German's dismay, it gave the Allies a new war cry "For England" and the end came several months sooner than expected.

So in trying to protect yourselves and make more money off of the pics and vids on the internet through legislation you may create a backlash that will end up biting you in the ass.

JohnDowe.

seanchai · #13 10-10-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by johndowe

Hi there.

One thing that HAS to be said is that everything that is posted on the internet becomes de facto public domain, so copyrights are a bit of a non issue, if you don't wany your pics to be shared, don't post them on the internet in the first place, free or not, because they will always be someone that will resent having to pay for something and not be "allowed" to do what they want with it, which is the real issue here.

The same is true for software, what is it we realy pay for? The disks, the manuals, the box? No we pay for the software, and since software is data, and easily copyable, why should i have to pay for 3 identicle copies of a piece of software for my 3 computers? I shouldn't, i paid for the software and i should have the "right" to do with it as i please, within reason of course, but again if you don't want others to have your software, don't publish it or accept the FACT that there will be some copy, even if you put all kinds of copy protections, someone ALWAYS finds a way to overide them.

JohnDowe.

Absolute rubbish. Go read the law before you bother posting.

GroobyKrissy · #14 10-10-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by johndowe

Hi there.

One thing that HAS to be said is that everything that is posted on the internet becomes de facto public domain, so copyrights are a bit of a non issue, if you don't wany your pics to be shared, don't post them on the internet in the first place, free or not, because they will always be someone that will resent having to pay for something and not be "allowed" to do what they want with it, which is the real issue here.

One thing that HAS to be said in reply to this post is that you do not know what you're talking about. Although this may be your little fantasy world of what YOU consider to be true, a simple precursory look into copyright law proves you wrong.

Seriously... do a little research before you make comments about something you obviously don't know anything about.

violet lightning · #15 10-10-2009

I just noticed you (seanshai) deleted 3 photos of Meghan Chavalier from one of my posts. (Meghan Chavalier Post in freebies, #5)
Since I got these pics from a legitimate free site, (www.juicyshemales.com) and they are NOT stolen or from a members area, why did you delete them?
I thought you just said 15 pics from the same set were ok with you as long as they were free "marketing" pictures.
What gives? I'm playing by your rules! Is JSM not a legitimate marketing site? Are you saying they stole your content?
Grrrr.

seanchai · #16 10-10-2009

Quote: