Posting Of Pay Site Images - All Read.

[ladyboyadmirer]

That reply must have taken you ages to compile Seanchai, some interesting facts there...thanks for your time

[seanchai]

Originally Posted by ladyboyadmirer

That reply must have taken you ages to compile Seanchai, some interesting facts there...thanks for your time

It's not the first time I've answered the same questions.
Thanks

[Excaliborg]

seanchai you sound very much like the RIAA who blame the end users of a product for the loss of business. consider this, i can do a google search right now for just about anything and i can guarentee you i will find what i am looking for without having to pay. whose fault is that? mine or yours? as a provider of a specific kind of content it is upon YOU to secure you data or IP(Interllectual Properrty) or whatever you want to call it. dont go after us poor plebs. go after the saucy knaves who are stealing your IP. it is not my fault that more that more than three pics of any given galllery is available on the internet. it is YOUR responsibility to ensure what is available to us poor plebs.

sure you can enforce a three pic rule on your own site via tours. as Jenae LaTorque said(i think), we help to promote your paysites.

now as to copyright. you have to PROVE what the INTENTION is. not what i'm actually doing. read them laws again. just because im searching for pics of shemales or tgirls (reminds me of a thread in the Shemale Chat section, they are women not just objects of sexual desire) does not mean im going to your site with the purpose of stealimg. i want to jack off to something that i find appealing. so im going to go where the freely availabel content is, not to a forum that only allows three pics of any given set.

so it comes down to this. if you want to protect your content, only make three examples available per set availanle to the public. do not have teaser sets of nine, twelve or fifteen examples available. once again the onus is upon YOU to protect your content. not me, not Jenae LaTorque or any other member of this forum.

to quote you "...Legal issues are not really opening to question, take them up with your politicians." why involve politicians? this is not a polical matter. secure your IP, make your data is protected. dont make us the scapegoat.

violet lightning and Jenae LaTorque(she has such nawty eyes)

[Bionca]

While I have obviously mixed feelings about the adult industry, I have to go with Seanchai here. I doubt there would be very many times when this is the case.

The porn industry does not have huge margins to begin with unless you are Playboy, Hustler, Vivid, or Private. Grooby may be the big fish, but they are still in a tiny pond. We are being nicely asked to actually support the industry that has made this site possible. We can join a pay site and/or stop snagging and posting their stuff. Simple really.

If Seanchai's request was unreasonable, you bet I'd be on it like stink on a skunk. However, I think this is a very realistic compromise.

[seanchai]

Originally Posted by Excaliborg

seanchai you sound very much like the RIAA who blame the end users of a product for the loss of business. consider this, i can do a google search right now for just about anything and i can guarentee you i will find what i am looking for without having to pay. whose fault is that? mine or yours? as a provider of a specific kind of content it is upon YOU to secure you data or IP(Interllectual Properrty) or whatever you want to call it. dont go after us poor plebs. go after the saucy knaves who are stealing your IP. it is not my fault that more that more than three pics of any given galllery is available on the internet. it is YOUR responsibility to ensure what is available to us poor plebs.

I'm not blaming anyone for our loss of business, I'm moving with the times and the current times indicate that this is what is necessary to protect the business as a whole. If you had any interest in the future of TS porn and the models, you'd respect that.
Pretty much with searching and hard work, you will find stolen content, we spend time and energy trying to delete and restrict access to stolen content so that the average surfer will get better value for his time and money, by spending on one of our sites and helping perpetuate more content.
I've already stated more than 3 pics can be posted if it's from content we give away freely, but not from membership area content.

Originally Posted by Excaliborg

sure you can enforce a three pic rule on your own site via tours. as Jenae LaTorque said(i think), we help to promote your paysites.

I can enforce a ZERO infringement of our copyright on any site or server. As you rightly paraphrased me, "you do help to promote our paysites" which is why we're not enforcing that rule as we've done on some sites.

Originally Posted by Excaliborg

now as to copyright. you have to PROVE what the INTENTION is. not what i'm actually doing. read them laws again. just because im searching for pics of shemales or tgirls (reminds me of a thread in the Shemale Chat section, they are women not just objects of sexual desire) does not mean im going to your site with the purpose of stealimg. i want to jack off to something that i find appealing. so im going to go where the freely availabel content is, not to a forum that only allows three pics of any given set.

I think you need to read the laws and my posts again before you jump on your high horse. It's not about searching or viewing pics - it's about posting them. Any server that hosts the photos, without permission, is in breach of copyright laws.

Originally Posted by Excaliborg

so it comes down to this. if you want to protect your content, only make three examples available per set availanle to the public. do not have teaser sets of nine, twelve or fifteen examples available. once again the onus is upon YOU to protect your content. not me, not Jenae LaTorque or any other member of this forum.

a) It doesn't come down to this. Abide by rules set by producers or expect to see material from those producers removed from all sites other than those they've expressly given content to.

b) I've stated, that they can use the sample photos ... the 3 image rule, is for those from the website members area. If in doubt, don't post as you more than likely, got them from illegal postings.

Originally Posted by Excaliborg

to quote you "...Legal issues are not really opening to question, take them up with your politicians." why involve politicians? this is not a polical matter. secure your IP, make your data is protected. dont make us the scapegoat.

Negative. How ridiculous, a shopkeeper should lock up his wares because if he doesn't then he's responsible for people stealing them and the thieves are the scapegoats.
My point was, if you have problems with the current copyright laws, take them up with politicians and not with us. We act within the current laws and all we're asking, is for you to do the same.

[Jenae LaTorque]

OK! You have cleared up some matters. You are not against us posting 15 pics from those pages that you have already made available on the net for free. OK You are against people who post material from the members section of the sites you are representing here. OK Perfecty understandable and justified. When we are talking about such material, and you wish to set the limit at three, I say fine. Not that it affects non-member me, but it isn't something I would do anyway due to ethical considerations. I am sure there is a clause in your member agreement prohibitting such behavior. I can't find any excuse for such contract breaking save that of sub-normal intelligence.

Even with that being said, I still believe that "you are barking up the wrong tree." But then, that is okay as long as you are barking up the other more likely trees also. I think this forum would have to be a very minor part of your problems. I think you would have to agree that the entry into the Tgirl market by big players like HUSTLER has cost you far more. The last five years have seen an explosion in the number of Tgirl related internet sites. When such an event occurs in any business, usually it is because the demand is there and there is money to be made. When this reaches a certain point where supply exceeds demand, then there will be a leveling out. Some producers will fall, while most others will have to become more efficient to survive. Also, we are now in a world-wide recession and perhaps you are feeling a crunch between the effects of that and a reduced demand due to the increased competition. And I have noticed that the competition is increasing not only in quantity, but in quality. There have never been so many truly attractive Tgirls on the net as there are now. No longer are photoshots like something that could pass for home candids or crappy movie stills. There are pics out there that approach closely to the standards as set by PLAYBOY. There are even some who are retouching their photos, like PLAYBOY, to such an extent that it is hard to recognize the silky smooth skinned model as the same one you just saw in another set with an acne pitted face. Speaking of Playboy; has anyone in the western world ever tried to emulate them by having a Tgirl club complete with Tgirl hostesses?

So here you are. And here I am. I have been looking at the numbers. Lol I am a great believer in numbers. When people say this is so or that is so, I want to see the hard data; the numbers. Home page says we have 35, 969 members, 4,371 of whom are active members. Now I am unsure of what constitutes an active member as opposed to a non-active member. Perhaps one of you moderators or SSL could explain this distinction. Furthermore, it says there are 72 users online-18 members and 54 guests. Looking at the stats for where these members are currantly viewing, we see that the large majority of them are in the freebies section. So we can see that only 25% of those viewing at one point in time are members. It would be interesting to know how many visitors we get a day. Now it is true that one is not able to download pics unless one is a member and that is limited until you get enough points to where you are allowed more than you need or want. All in all, I don't see where those numbers can support a contention that you are losing much business here. Now links to video sites may well be a whole differant story. Visitors would be able to use those links to go there just as much as members. And if as you say, some of these links do lead to sites with stolen content; would it not be possible to create some kind of software linked to a database of known thief sites that would alert moderators to their posting, or even better, disallow the posting at all. Yes, I know that software doesn't grow on trees

In summation, I still think this tree ain't worth barking up. But I really would not be bothered with a total limit of five or so pics from any one shoot. Because when you get down to it; there is so much availible free for the downloading out there, that there is no need for this forum to be a pic supplier. Five should be enough to convey the essence of any single shoot of a Tgirl. I am hereby assuming that limit. No longer will I post more than 5 pics from any one shoot. If they want more, than they can darn well go search them out on the FHG sites like I do.

P.S. The whole thing about my legal fee was a joke - that is why there are the smilies with it. Perhaps you are not in a receptive mood for humor at this point in time. Well, that's OK too! I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors.

"When the wolf gnaws, smile." - Robert Heinlein

[violet lightning]

Thanks for answering all my questions seanchai. It all sounds reasonable, and it seems like your really after a few major offenders who don't respect the money and effort that goes into actually producing original material and maintaining websites.

I hope you don't mind a few more thoughts/questions/observations as this seems like a good opportunity to learn more.
Are you a moderator or owner of this site? Is this forum connected in some way to commercial sites, or was it established for members to enjoy and share pics, etc?
Is there a legal precedent for forums like this to exist?

Also, an example of an earlier point: I visited a site earlier today,(juicyshemales.com) that is a freebie-link page, and there were two different sets of Carla Novais from shemaleclub that had 20 pics each. (thats 40 free pics from just two sets on a page with hundreds of free sets--and they change daily!) Multiply that by the hundreds of other freebie pages and your talking thousands of free pics daily. Does releasing so many free photos hurt yours (and others) business much? How do you differentiate between the free pics and the ones that are on the pay-site?
It also seems like the free pics are so good, you would have just as many people being satisfied with those as being tempted to join. (I would assume this is not the case or you wouldn't be doing it)

Does any problem arise when free sites like this begin getting "too good"?
(The content is excellent, traffic goes up, the word gets out and perhaps people start wondering if we are cutting into their business....?)

Are you generally ok with this site and others like it as long as they don't post whole sets or proprietary material?

I won't belabor the point. These are just a few thoughts and questions. As I said, I get where you are coming from, and I believe your concerns are legitimate. I just hope you can solve the problems without becoming too draconian.
I enjoy your sites as well as others, but I enjoy this site very much too.

(Note-in the time it took to compose this, you answered or addressed some of my questions already in other posts, so forgive some of the points)
It sounds like you are ok with this site and members, as long as we follow some basic rules...and that seems reasonable enough to me.
Now you just have to convince everyone else!

[johndowe]

Hi there.

One thing that HAS to be said is that everything that is posted on the internet becomes de facto public domain, so copyrights are a bit of a non issue, if you don't wany your pics to be shared, don't post them on the internet in the first place, free or not, because they will always be someone that will resent having to pay for something and not be "allowed" to do what they want with it, which is the real issue here.

The same is true for software, what is it we realy pay for? The disks, the manuals, the box? No we pay for the software, and since software is data, and easily copyable, why should i have to pay for 3 identicle copies of a piece of software for my 3 computers? I shouldn't, i paid for the software and i should have the "right" to do with it as i please, within reason of course, but again if you don't want others to have your software, don't publish it or accept the FACT that there will be some copy, even if you put all kinds of copy protections, someone ALWAYS finds a way to overide them.


JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

I live in Canada and the gov had pretty heft tax on cigarettes and after a new increase of the cigarette tax the people revolted and a big black market cigarette "market" opened up to the point that the gov lost more revenue due to the black market and removed the new tax, but the dammage was done and the cigarette black market (from native tribes) is still booming not as well as when it was at it's strongest but it is better than it was before the gov put the new (but removed) cogarette tax, so actions often have unforseen concequences.

Remember the OLD lawer addage; don't ask a question you don't already know the ansewer to? The reason is simple in a courtroom, if you ask a question you don't know the ansewer to, you may very well blow your own case out of the water.

The same principle applied to the Germans in WW2 they attacked England to erode their morale, but to the German's dismay, it gave the Allies a new war cry "For England" and the end came several months sooner than expected.

So in trying to protect yourselves and make more money off of the pics and vids on the internet through legislation you may create a backlash that will end up biting you in the ass.

JohnDowe.

[Excaliborg]

Originally Posted by johndowe

Hi there.

I live in Canada and the gov had pretty heft tax on cigarettes and after a new increase of the cigarette tax the people revolted and a big black market cigarette "market" opened up to the point that the gov lost more revenue due to the black market and removed the new tax, but the dammage was done and the cigarette black market (from native tribes) is still booming not as well as when it was at it's strongest but it is better than it was before the gov put the new (but removed) cogarette tax, so actions often have unforseen concequences.

Remember the OLD lawer addage; don't ask a question you don't already know the ansewer to? The reason is simple in a courtroom, if you ask a question you don't know the ansewer to, you may very well blow your own case out of the water.

The same principle applied to the Germans in WW2 they attacked England to erode their morale, but to the German's dismay, it gave the Allies a new war cry "For England" and the end came several months sooner than expected.

So in trying to protect yourselves and make more money off of the pics and vids on the internet through legislation you may create a backlash that will end up biting you in the ass.

JohnDowe.

also knwn as the streisand effect.

now we can bandy words as to who is write and who is wrong. the fact remains that if you dont want more than say five of any given set floatnig about the internet, its your responsibility to ensure that.

reading through the posts again, your request is a fair one. but wouldnt it have been more efficient to first open a dialogue with SSL and the moderators? they could then enforce you request as a rule for content from those sites listed.this way just looks like you are out to get us.

[seanchai]

Originally Posted by Excaliborg

reading through the posts again, your request is a fair one. but wouldnt it have been more efficient to first open a dialogue with SSL and the moderators? they could then enforce you request as a rule for content from those sites listed.this way just looks like you are out to get us.

Been in dialogue with the owner for many months.

[seanchai]

Originally Posted by johndowe

Hi there.

One thing that HAS to be said is that everything that is posted on the internet becomes de facto public domain, so copyrights are a bit of a non issue, if you don't wany your pics to be shared, don't post them on the internet in the first place, free or not, because they will always be someone that will resent having to pay for something and not be "allowed" to do what they want with it, which is the real issue here.

The same is true for software, what is it we realy pay for? The disks, the manuals, the box? No we pay for the software, and since software is data, and easily copyable, why should i have to pay for 3 identicle copies of a piece of software for my 3 computers? I shouldn't, i paid for the software and i should have the "right" to do with it as i please, within reason of course, but again if you don't want others to have your software, don't publish it or accept the FACT that there will be some copy, even if you put all kinds of copy protections, someone ALWAYS finds a way to overide them.


JohnDowe.

Absolute rubbish. Go read the law before you bother posting.

[johndowe]

Originally Posted by seanchai

Absolute rubbish. Go read the law before you bother posting.

Hi there.

I WASN'T TALKING ABOUT THE LAW, I WAS TALKING ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON, AND HOW THINGS ARE.

GRAB A BRAIN, WILL YA!


JohnDowe.

[seanchai]

Originally Posted by johndowe

HAS to be said is that everything that is posted on the internet becomes de facto public domain, so copyrights are a bit of a non issue

So basically, you just made that up? It has no legal grounds or precedent?

I heard your brain was missing so maybe I'll grab that for a laugh or too.
Arse.

[GroobyKrissy]

Originally Posted by johndowe

Hi there.

One thing that HAS to be said is that everything that is posted on the internet becomes de facto public domain, so copyrights are a bit of a non issue, if you don't wany your pics to be shared, don't post them on the internet in the first place, free or not, because they will always be someone that will resent having to pay for something and not be "allowed" to do what they want with it, which is the real issue here.

One thing that HAS to be said in reply to this post is that you do not know what you're talking about. Although this may be your little fantasy world of what YOU consider to be true, a simple precursory look into copyright law proves you wrong.

Seriously... do a little research before you make comments about something you obviously don't know anything about.

[GroobyKrissy]

This reminds me of this old thread that I started...

http://forum.transladyboy.com/showthread.php?t=6026 Take a look at the last post on that thread. Clearly, this kind of post is damaging to the industry and has no place on a 'legitimate' forum such as this [is]. This post should be removed and the person warned against making further posts of this nature and banned if he/she persists.

Hey, I get it... you guys want free porn. It's human nature to want things for free. That doesn't make it right OR legal. The fact of the matter is that in posting mass amounts of ripped content, you don't often realize how you're hurting the models and the sites that provide you the content to 'get your rocks off.'

As an independent producer and a VERY careful keeper of all kinds of statistics and records for my site, I KNOW for a fact, when I see a sharp decline in sales, invariably, I can trace it back to either a forum with rips from my site or pw sharing.

I think Seanchai has done a pretty good job here of defending his stance and hardly needs me to weigh in on the subject but, what really irritates me about some of the responses is the 'justifications' for posting ripped content. Instead of making up illogical (and sometimes just plain stupid) reasons to justify your actions, you should just say, 'I'm selfish and don't want to pay for porn.' OR, 'I want to look important and that's why I post ripped content.' This last one is personally the reason I feel most people post excessive ripped content. They like the replies of gratitude and it helps them think that what they're doing is OK. Just my two cents.

Because, really, why else would you care if you're asked to limit your postings to 3 pictures from one set?

[ila]

Originally Posted by GroobyKrissy

This reminds me of this old thread that I started...

http://forum.transladyboy.com/showthread.php?t=6026 Take a look at the last post on that thread. Clearly, this kind of post is damaging to the industry and has no place on a 'legitimate' forum such as this [is]. This post should be removed and the person warned against making further posts of this nature and banned if he/she persists.

Below is the message that you are referring to.

Originally Posted by Mold

For what purchasing pay sites??? On the NET you can find many shemale tube site, many of them have very nace content. PM me if you interesting.....

Tell me how this this message is damaging to the porn industry. The member stated that there are many tube sites on the internet. He is quite correct in that statement. Poor grammar and spelling aside he asked members to PM him for, I assume, the names of tube sites. There is nothing illegal about that. You might also note that this member has not been back on the site for more two months.

If you feel so strongly that Mold's post should be removed then I suggest that you use the Report Post button in the message box. The instructions that follow will tell you what to do.

[violet lightning]

I just noticed you (seanshai) deleted 3 photos of Meghan Chavalier from one of my posts. (Meghan Chavalier Post in freebies, #5)
Since I got these pics from a legitimate free site, (www.juicyshemales.com) and they are NOT stolen or from a members area, why did you delete them?
I thought you just said 15 pics from the same set were ok with you as long as they were free "marketing" pictures.
What gives? I'm playing by your rules! Is JSM not a legitimate marketing site? Are you saying they stole your content?
Grrrr.

[seanchai]

Originally Posted by violet lightning

I just noticed you (seanshai) deleted 3 photos of Meghan Chavalier from one of my posts. (Meghan Chavalier Post in freebies, #5)
Since I got these pics from a legitimate free site, (www.juicyshemales.com) and they are NOT stolen or from a members area, why did you delete them?
I thought you just said 15 pics from the same set were ok with you as long as they were free "marketing" pictures.
What gives? I'm playing by your rules! Is JSM not a legitimate marketing site? Are you saying they stole your content?
Grrrr.

Will investigate JuicyShemales but as I believe the images were from a new site, Shemale Pornstar, which doesn't have affiliates, no content should have been released.

Frankly, I'm not going to investigate deeply into each and every post, I'm pretty sure I know what content is what but if a few get caught up by mistake, then so be it.

[seanchai]

Originally Posted by violet lightning

Are you a moderator or owner of this site? Is this forum connected in some way to commercial sites, or was it established for members to enjoy and share pics, etc?

Almost all forums or websites have a commercial interest. Sites make money from advertising. That's how they pay the server and related costs. You'd have to ask the owner, why it was set up. I'm not the owner but I do own other forms

Originally Posted by violet lightning

Is there a legal precedent for forums like this to exist?

Don't understand question.

Originally Posted by violet lightning

Also, an example of an earlier point: I visited a site earlier today,(juicyshemales.com) that is a freebie-link page, and there were two different sets of Carla Novais from shemaleclub that had 20 pics each. (thats 40 free pics from just two sets on a page with hundreds of free sets--and they change daily!) Multiply that by the hundreds of other freebie pages and your talking thousands of free pics daily. Does releasing so many free photos hurt yours (and others) business much? How do you differentiate between the free pics and the ones that are on the pay-site?

I don't own Shemale Club. You'd have to ask their own specifically. I don't think releasing that much free content is good business.
I differentiate between our free released pics and pay site pics in that the free ones should be a tease. Other companies may have a different ethos.

Originally Posted by violet lightning

It also seems like the free pics are so good, you would have just as many people being satisfied with those as being tempted to join. (I would assume this is not the case or you wouldn't be doing it)

Agreed, this is why Grooby doesn't give the best content away.

Originally Posted by violet lightning

Does any problem arise when free sites like this begin getting "too good"?
(The content is excellent, traffic goes up, the word gets out and perhaps people start wondering if we are cutting into their business....?)

No, good forums and traffic are what we like. The problem arises when new people on the internet come to sites like this and can get the majority of a set or a link to a stolen video for free. It can easily be found. Then they don't join paysites. We don't make money. We have no money for future shoots ... blah blah blah.

Originally Posted by violet lightning

Are you generally ok with this site and others like it as long as they don't post whole sets or proprietary material?

I love sites like this and have been active on some for years. I hope to become more active on here other than just the complaints about the amount of material posted.


Thanks
seanchai

[violet lightning]

I think we (the reasonable ones) are more or less on board with your (also reasonable) requests, but I still wonder about the Meghan pics you deleted.
Shemalepornstars.com is one of the sites you listed in your first post here, and that is where those pics are from via juicyshemales.com, which (I checked) does have some sort of affiliation with grooby sites.

As I said, I downloaded them from one of YOUR promotional sites, (in good faith) and out of the 15 free pics, I only posted 6.
Are they stolen or used without your permission?? If they were legitimate free pics, I would appreciate them being put back up. They were posted on JSM on Sept. 26.

I completely understand your POV, but from mine its very disconcerting to have a post edited like that, especially (apparently) when all the facts are not in. (stolen content or not??)

Kinda sucks to have to go back and see whats been edited and why. If my posts (which are fairly well thought out) get edited like that, (half the pics removed) I'm not sure I even want to post anymore. Takes the fun out of things. My whole reason for being here is to enjoy sharing, taking part in discussions and just having fun.
I'm not pissed, just somewhat confused....

Post script: Regarding newbies finding this site and then not joining paysites.. As I said, I actively searched the internet for years for photos and only about 8 months ago did I stumble on this site. I assume the same to be true of people like Jenae, who joined fairly recently too, and has also been on the web for years. If its that random, do you really think newbies are coming here in droves? Do you have ANY data to back that assertion?

[seanchai]

Originally Posted by violet lightning

I think we (the reasonable ones) are more or less on board with your (also reasonable) requests, but I still wonder about the Meghan pics you deleted.
Shemalepornstars.com is one of the sites you listed in your first post here, and that is where those pics are from via juicyshemales.com, which (I checked) does have some sort of affiliation with grooby sites.

As I said, I downloaded them from one of YOUR promotional sites, (in good faith) and out of the 15 free pics, I only posted 6.
Are they stolen or used without your permission?? If they were legitimate free pics, I would appreciate them being put back up. They were posted on JSM on Sept. 26.

I completely understand your POV, but from mine its very disconcerting to have a post edited like that, especially (apparently) when all the facts are not in. (stolen content or not??)

Kinda sucks to have to go back and see whats been edited and why. If my posts (which are fairly well thought out) get edited like that, (half the pics removed) I'm not sure I even want to post anymore. Takes the fun out of things. My whole reason for being here is to enjoy sharing, taking part in discussions and just having fun.
I'm not pissed, just somewhat confused....

Post script: Regarding newbies finding this site and then not joining paysites.. As I said, I actively searched the internet for years for photos and only about 8 months ago did I stumble on this site. I assume the same to be true of people like Jenae, who joined fairly recently too, and has also been on the web for years. If its that random, do you really think newbies are coming here in droves? Do you have ANY data to back that assertion?

Violet,
I really think I've posted enough on this and I'm not going to get into tiny details. I told you already I'll look at the site you mentioned.
I think the main points are:

1. Posting of content is not a right, it's a privilege. You don't have to post.

2. The content always remains the rights of a producer and just because it can be seen for free elsewhere, doesn't mean that anybody other than the producer or persons they have given permission, has the right to post it elsewhere.

3. If your posts get caught up in some deletions, then deal with it. I'm not investigating every post. As mentioned above, it's a privilege. Sometimes I don't want my shoots given away at all or certainly, some of the select photos. I reserve the right to have removed any content belonging to us, that I want, regardless of the other rules.

4. ... and once again. You don't have to post images.

[Jenae LaTorque]

I think that Sesame is right. It is time to let this go. He has already demonstrated to me that he is here primarily as a money grubber looking after his own self interest. He has also demonstrated that he isn't very bright and I will be surprised if he survives the increasingly competitive nature of his niche of pornography. He has demonstrated that he has no respect for the forum members, only for them as a possible source of income. His position as a moderator has been only in his own self interest - the numbers show this - his post count of less than 60, is less than 3% of ila's post count. All in all, I believe his statements here have been some very dismal public relations. While I do not subscribe to online pic sites, I do purchase quite a few videos. From now on, I will be on the lookout for Grooby productions and will absolutely never ever purchase one.