How important is passable/female identity?

For me, passability is in the eye of the beholder, and it's not for a TS to say whether they're passable or not.

I will say this however: TS don't have the right to judge their passability but they do have the ability to observe the frequency of passing. It appears I pass pretty much all the time and get hit on by unsuspecting guys on a daily basis. For me, that is the ultimate test. If the dudes are checking you out, you're good.

My credentials show me as female. That goes for my driver license, life and car insurance and credit cards. That was important for me. I felt it was disingenuous to live as Melissa but to be officially labeled in my old name and male gender. I remember once being stopped by a cop before I legally changed name and gender. The officer did not believe I was the person in the license.

I would also like to add that from the very beginning of my transformation passability was important to me. In the beginning, I did not pass all the time. And it fucking killed me. I would cry.

Some might say passability is overrated and what's most important is that you're happy in your own skin. While that is true don't let them fool you- passing is huge for any TS.

[cham]

Option 2

Cham

[smolderingtemptress]

I'm at a point now where I'm possibly considering facial feminization surgery. I'm pretty passable as it is, but I realize there are some masculine features on my face, though even genetic women have a few. I think what helps me pass the most is my voice, which I've been training since puberty attempted to change but I won the fight, and that I've socialized as a girl. All too often I see transgirls trying to overcompensate their masculinity with obnoxious femininity, and that just isn't how it is with most genetic females.

Passing is definitely important, but when you start to dwell on it 24/7 and it starts to affect your life, it's time to reprioritize. When I look in the mirror I'm realistic about what I see, and of course I'd want to polish off a few features, namely my jaw and my forehead, but right now it just isn't as important to me as other things. I still get hit on and told I'm cute, from guys who don't even know about me... that's enough for me.

Oh, and a small rant: The goal of passing is not a beauty contest. Too many TS get plastic surgery in the name of "FFS" when really, after constant procedures, they start to cross from "feminization" to "cosmetic". Everyone has something they don't like, but it doesn't always have a distinctive gender marker, either.

Who gives a shit what you think? You should not be on my threads Mister.

[smolderingtemptress]

Grow up and get over it.

good luck at your pathetic job today and enjoy being the man that you are.

[smolderingtemptress]

You're not doing yourself any favors by dragging out this temper tantrum of yours.

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by TSmelissacarter

[COLOR="DarkRed"]For me, passability is in the eye of the beholder...

For me too... I surely can say when a T-woman is too much man (for my taste), but that's actually not necessarily the same as her being not woman enough... or lovely enough... or wonderful enough...

To me, I guess, the slight socalled "masculinity" in most (not all) T-women is merely part of her charm. To some extent it can make her even more feminine...

Originally Posted by smolderingtemptress

You're not doing yourself any favors by dragging out this temper tantrum of yours.

Don't forget to use the men's room at work, dude.

Any TS who does not think passing is at the top of the priority list must be butt-ugly and have no hopes of passing so they justify their failure to appear female by lessening the importance of the look.

I can say this with confidence because I knew what it was like to get clocked and I know what it's like to pass.

And by the way, passing means everything, not just looks but walk, talk, demeanor the whole shebang.

[smolderingtemptress]

Originally Posted by TSmelissacarter

Don't forget to use the men's room at work, dude.

Don't forget the $10 on the dresser.

No one said passing isn't important, but when the fear of getting clocked consumes you, it's time to step back and look at the big picture. FFS isn't miracle work - while most get amazing results, no one's going to look 100% feminine, and we shouldn't expect that.

What's wrong with thinking positively, whether or not you pass?

And if TS don't have the right to judge passability, why are you criticizing those that may not completely pass but still find comfort with their looks regardless?

Get over yourself; this arrogance is a rather masculine trait for you.

Trim your moustache dude stay off my thread

Get back to work the drive thrus backing up

[smolderingtemptress]

Originally Posted by TSmelissacarter

Trim your moustache dude stay off my thread

Get back to work the drive thrus backing up

Working at fast food is more respectable than what you do.

[Bionca]

I'd like to go on record stating I hate the word "Passing". Is the opposite then, "Failing"? Is a Trans*woman who can't afford thousands of dollars in surgeries a failure? I don't think so. It also implies a level of deception, since the term is taken from light-skinned African-Americans who could "pass" as white.

All that said, I worked very hard to afford the feminization surgeries that modified my skull and neck. "Passing" is at the very least an issue of personal safety for many. Unfortunately, "passing" becomes equated with "pretty" and used to justify insulting some gals.

[Talvenada]

Originally Posted by Bionca

I'd like to go on record stating I hate the word "Passing". Is the opposite then, "Failing"? Is a Trans*woman who can't afford thousands of dollars in surgeries a failure? I don't think so. It also implies a level of deception, since the term is taken from light-skinned African-Americans who could "pass" as white.

All that said, I worked very hard to afford the feminization surgeries that modified my skull and neck. "Passing" is at the very least an issue of personal safety for many. Unfortunately, "passing" becomes equated with "pretty" and used to justify insulting some gals.

BIONCA,

Am I the first to notice your sexy new avatar?

Is this a one photo thing, or more than one photo taken at that time?

[furion]

i think its down to the girl at the end of the day, if shes happy shes happy. some women dont care that they dont always pass as they are very confident.

Others as you say can get upset and cry as you did. i guess this is because they strive for perfection and want to pass 100% of the time as a female.

From a guys point of view, especially a str8 guys this is perhaps more important since he wants to be seen dating females and not TS ladies.

Just some thoughts for your tread

Originally Posted by Bionca

I'd like to go on record stating I hate the word "Passing". Is the opposite then, "Failing"? Is a Trans*woman who can't afford thousands of dollars in surgeries a failure? I don't think so. It also implies a level of deception, since the term is taken from light-skinned African-Americans who could "pass" as white.

All that said, I worked very hard to afford the feminization surgeries that modified my skull and neck. "Passing" is at the very least an issue of personal safety for many. Unfortunately, "passing" becomes equated with "pretty" and used to justify insulting some gals.

I can understand you hating it but the fact is, it's the word referring to "believable". So pick a word, any word, but in the end we are talking about being perceived as a woman.

Originally Posted by smolderingtemptress

Working at fast food is more respectable than what you do.

Hey smothering ma-nin-a-dress whats lacking respect is your high talk and complete anonymity. You accuse me of a lowly profession when I'm doing more to make the world respect TS than you could ever do with your cartoon profile and empty words.

One day you'll beg me to fuck you and you'll pay handsomely for the privilege.

[smolderingtemptress]

Originally Posted by TSmelissacarter

Hey smothering ma-nin-a-dress whats lacking respect is your high talk and complete anonymity. You accuse me of a lowly profession when I'm doing more to make the world respect TS than you could ever do with your cartoon profile and empty words.

One day you'll beg me to fuck you and you'll pay handsomely for the privilege.

You're so delusional, I almost pity you.

And I thought you weren't trying to do anything for TS? Don't tell me you've had a change of heart now?

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by Bionca

I'd like to go on record stating I hate the word "Passing". Is the opposite then, "Failing"? Is a Trans*woman who can't afford thousands of dollars in surgeries a failure? I don't think so. It also implies a level of deception, since the term is taken from light-skinned African-Americans who could "pass" as white.

All that said, I worked very hard to afford the feminization surgeries that modified my skull and neck. "Passing" is at the very least an issue of personal safety for many. Unfortunately, "passing" becomes equated with "pretty" and used to justify insulting some gals.

Well said, Mizzy B. Obviously, grasping not only the superficial feminine prettyness but rather the entire beauty of transsexuality, which by my book goes way much deeper than merely a great face-job, is what this is all about.

And with that comes a deep respect and a realization that transsexuality above all and deeper than all is an amazing degree of self-realization that very few people would ever have the courage to pursue.

I've certainly been in circumstances where more "passable" transsexual women would actually mock their socalled less passable sisters - and that's not nice at all. Actually, it's ridiculous.

But that's to some degree the name of the game, I'm afraid...

Originally Posted by smolderingtemptress

Don't tell me you've had a change of heart now?

Hey Dude, I take cash only no checks and no English currency.

Get a new cartoon profile. You can keep hiding behind your computer like a scared little man.

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

Well said, Mizzy B. Obviously, grasping not only the superficial feminine prettyness but rather the entire beauty of transsexuality, which by my book goes way much deeper than merely a great face-job, is what this is all about.

And with that comes a deep respect and a realization that transsexuality above all and deeper than all is an amazing degree of self-realization that very few people would ever have the courage to pursue.

I've certainly been in circumstances where more "passable" transsexual women would actually mock their socalled less passable sisters - and that's not nice at all. Actually, it's ridiculous.

But that's to some degree the name of the game, I'm afraid...

It is easy to downplay the importance people place on passability as "superficial" and "shallow".

Now imagine this: you live your life as a woman, and with every daily outing you are clocked and stared at, like a spectacle, hopelessly male and not passing. People are merciless in their stares and their judgments. That is a transsexuals's worst nightmare. Ansd she will avoid it at any cost.

So I disagree. Passability is HUGE and becoming fully passable is expensive and painful. I have gone through the procedures and am still having more work done. Some respect should be given to those of us who did the hard work, not for superficial reasons but because we believe we became the woman we felt like inside.

[smolderingtemptress]

Originally Posted by TSmelissacarter

Hey Dude, I take cash only no checks and no English currency.

Get a new cartoon profile. You can keep hiding behind your computer like a scared little man.

May I remind you that it was you who started insulting me in this thread, and that I merely posted about my own experience relevant to the topic on an OPEN FORUM. You're repeating the same thing over and over whenever you see my avatar, which you no doubt admire so much, to the degree that is almost obsessive.

I'm not going to be one of your clientele; there's no need for you to sell yourself to me at every opportunity.

He who talks shit and hides behinds a computer, that should be your Indian name.

You show me a TS I'll show you a girl with 1000 pics of herself.

[smolderingtemptress]

Originally Posted by TSmelissacarter

He who talks shit and hides behinds a computer, that should be your Indian name.

You show me a TS I'll show you a girl with 1000 pics of herself.

I never said I didn't have pictures - I said I wasn't going to post them here. I know it drives you mad; that's merely an amusing aftereffect rather than an intended consequence.

PS: Ever hear of the pot calling the kettle black?

[liesjeversteven]

Ladies please, could you keep it civilized? There's nothing wrong with having different opinions. Just agree to disagree, and stop acting like two twelve year olds. At least keep the discussion at a level above the Jerry Springer show.
If you don't like each other, fine, then don't, but I think this board is hardly the place for this kind of trash talk.

Originally Posted by liesjeversteven

Ladies please, could you keep it civilized? There's nothing wrong with having different opinions. Just agree to disagree, and stop acting like two twelve year olds. At least keep the discussion at a level above the Jerry Springer show.
If you don't like each other, fine, then don't, but I think this board is hardly the place for this kind of trash talk.

Lady, it's one not two.

We have no evidence this hack is anything but a man tranny wannabee.

He also denigrates any TS who escorts, which encompasses some of the brightest stars and personalities in the TS community. I am not just defending myself but all TS who do what we do. He calls it a plague. I'm not gonna take that crap not on my thread.

[smolderingtemptress]

Originally Posted by liesjeversteven

Ladies please, could you keep it civilized? There's nothing wrong with having different opinions. Just agree to disagree, and stop acting like two twelve year olds. At least keep the discussion at a level above the Jerry Springer show.
If you don't like each other, fine, then don't, but I think this board is hardly the place for this kind of trash talk.

She won't stop. Watch her come at me in another thread later.

[CreativeMind]

Originally Posted by TSmelissacarter

He who talks shit and hides behinds a computer, that should be your Indian name.

You show me a TS I'll show you a girl with 1000 pics of herself.

Or maybe we can show you someone who very simply is doing what 99.999% of everyone does on the Internet -- protecting their privacy.

Honestly, Melissa, I don't understand why you keep bringing up this personal attack on Smoldering. It's brainless, pointless, and no one here is buying the bullshit you're peddling -- no matter how much you want to constantly declare "If you don't love me now, you will", as if parading an over-sized ego is going to win you more admirers or win an argument. Every single time you address Smoldering in such a dismissive way, I think that YOU picture yourself as some sort of triumphant ape in the jungle thumping your chest...meanwhile the rest of us see you for what you really are: a day-dreaming trained chimp behind the bars of a local zoo, tapping their chest and desperately hoping that someone will pay you the slightest bit of attention or toss you a banana.

Look, you work as a hooker. Oh, sorry, I guess I should be more of a gentleman and be a bit more diplomatic. Fine, you're a self-declared "escort." But the bottom line is that you fuck for cash...you sell your face and body...therefore you have an actual BUSINESS reason for putting your face out there as much as possible. And you have an actual BUSINESS reason to promote your web site or blog as much as possible, too (as you do at the bottom of each of your posts), simply so potential clients can contact you and thus you can possibly make more money.

But Smoldering isn't a hooker. She has no reason to post her picture. For that matter, NO ONE here really does when you come right down to it. Hey, I'm a professional published writer...I'm a printed artist...plus I work in Hollywood having done work behind and, yes, in front of the camera, too. But that doesn't mean I have a need to declare "who" I am versus simply being here for some fun or to meet and make new friends. And once I've made those friends, fine -- THAT'S when you can confide in those people your real name or give them your e-mail address or phone number or trade pictures or whatever the hell else you want to do.

And why? Because at that point you trust them and you DO want to be friends with them.

So, ENOUGH ALREADY with this utter horse shit you keep throwing at Smoldering, especially your debasing charge that she must be a man sitting behind a computer simply because she won't show her picture to you. Fuck that shit right up its ass. You fucking bitch all the time and whine like a little baby about how tough your life has been compared to other people or other TS (as if they've never faced obstacles or tough times)...you complain about the things you had to overcome to find your own identity...you want to stroke your own cock and ego to declare how "passable" you are...and yet you don't want to show a single shred of decency or respect to any other person or TS who might be shy or who is trying to find themselves...or who simply wants their privacy respected on the Net.

And speaking on the whole "passable" issue, the one person with the truly RIGHT post here was Bionca, who as usual showed what a class act she is. I realize "passable" is a term that the TS community uses, but Bionca was 100% right -- what is the alternative to that word, that you "failed"? That now you must be ugly and thus you have NO worth in life at all?

Again, fuck that shit right up its ass. Speaking as someone who does live and work in Hollywood, let me tell you that the FIRST lesson you learn working out here is the depth (or lack there of) regarding people.

In a previous post and in another thread, I noted that you can break people down into two types: Those who want to help other people, who want to help those who are coming up the ladder behind them versus those who are angry, embittered, and totally self-serving. Those who will say "Fuck that. I had a hard time in life, no one helped me, so now you should have a rough time, too." The result: they DON'T help other people.

Well, you can now amend that a bit because here is another difference in the two types of people in life: there are those who are all consumed by looks versus those who realize the human spirit and all that we are as human beings comes from within. So, Melissa, if ALL you care about is looks...if all you care about is how "passable" you are OUTWARDLY...if being a hooker sprawled out in a hotel room collecting 500 bucks a shot for taking it up the ass is "how" you define your true femininity and self-worth...then you're a pretty sad excuse for a TS.

Not to mention, with a piss-poor attitude like yours, you've got to be a truly terrible fuck in bed, too.

Damn the volumes you write, Creative, you must be so in love with me. Keep writing, maybe I'll go on a date with you one night.

Originally Posted by smolderingtemptress

I never said I didn't have pictures - I said I wasn't going to post them here.

Now I know you're a man.

There is no tranny on the planet, who having gone through the pain and personal struggle of transformation, would not proudly display her face to the world.

Now you show your respect to a fully developed transsexual woman, a woman who took every step, legally and physically to reach my status. Until you do I'll ride your ass like one of my clients, which is what you want.

I've brought some life to this board, before it was full of empty niceties. Now I see some feeling. You're all quite welcome.

Originally Posted by CreativeMind

Hey, I'm a professional published writer...I'm a printed artist...plus I work in Hollywood having done work behind and, yes, in front of the camera, too

OK Bruce Willis, no wait, you're Clint Eastwood? I see you have no time to write dissertations on why Melissa Carter is a skank, lol. You must be so famous.

[smolderingtemptress]

Originally Posted by TSmelissacarter

Now I know you're a man.

There is no tranny on the planet, who having gone through the pain and personal struggle of transformation, would not proudly display her face to the world.

Now you show your respect to a fully developed transsexual woman, a woman who took every step, legally and physically to reach my status. Until you do I'll ride your ass like one of my clients, which is what you want.

Looks like someone's starved for attention.

[franalexes]

Passing is not one thing.
PASSING is EVERYTHING !

[Talvenada]

Originally Posted by TSmelissacarter

I've brought some life to this board, before it was full of empty niceties. Now I see some feeling. You're all quite welcome.

MEL,

Or is it malicious?


Are you the cock that stirs the honey pot?


Piece,


TAL

Originally Posted by Talvenada

Are you the cock that stirs the honey pot?

I am the shiznitz

[Talvenada]

Originally Posted by TSmelissacarter

I am the shiznitz

MEL,

Could you translate from the language or slang what you are?


Piece,


TAL

[Limegirl]

To me it seems that you are a shemale instead for a transexual girl, to be a TS girl have NOTHING to do with a desire to get (sexual) attention from men, its about to be your true self, a woman, you have the bad luck to be girl born in a mans body and therefore need to correct there nature failed.
Transexualism has nothing to do with your sexuality, its about your gender.
Its not like transvetitets, men who get horny to wear women clothes.

Originally Posted by Limegirl

To me it seems that you are a shemale instead for a transexual girl, to be a TS girl have NOTHING to do with a desire to get (sexual) attention from men, its about to be your true self, a woman, you have the bad luck to be girl born in a mans body and therefore need to correct there nature failed.
Transexualism has nothing to do with your sexuality, its about your gender.
Its not like transvetitets, men who get horny to wear women clothes.

And posting on English-speaking boards requires command of the English language.

Originally Posted by Talvenada

MEL,

Could you translate from the language or slang what you are?


Piece,


TAL

It means I am a fucking Goddess now on your knees boy.

[Talvenada]

Originally Posted by TSmelissacarter

And posting on English-speaking boards requires command of the English language.

MEL,

English is not her first language, and this is a global forum, which includes some non-English speakers as well. Like you, she has an opinion, as do I. She wasn't being adversarial, just stating an opinion.

Piece,


TAL

[Talvenada]

Originally Posted by TSmelissacarter

It means I am a fucking Goddess now on your knees boy.

MEL:

Should I close my eyes, open my mouth, or both?

Should I offer you a hand, or both hands?


Piece,


TAL

[CreativeMind]

Originally Posted by TSmelissacarter

I've brought some life to this board, before it was full of empty niceties. Now I see some feeling. You're all quite welcome.

"Empty niceties"?
You mean like people actually being pleasant to each other?

Yeah, you're right -- we should really "thank you" for taking that away. We should thank you for throwing around an over-sized ego, or for insulting any fellow TS that are here simply because they don't agree with you on something or because they won't post their picture (choosing instead to protect their privacy online). And we should thank you for taking cheap shots at people -- like making fun of someone who lives in a foreign country, so English is obviously not their first language, and all they want to do is try and share some thoughts of their own on a public message board. Yeah, you're right, Melissa. We really owe you for all that you've given us. Like a cheap hooker who stakes out a spot on a local corner, you've added SO much class the neighborhood.

Oh, wait -- you ARE a cheap hooker.
So, I guess that comment is literally on target.

Ah, the sweet ironies in life...

Creative, I can always count on you to read my every word unfortunately I cannot return the favor.

You can contact me privately whenever you are ready for our date bring lube.

[Bionca]

There needs to be a clarification I think. To guys who love/date/fuck/admire/jerk-off to Trans*Women so often "Passing" = "pretty".

In my case, as well as most T-Gals I know, hormonal and surgical femiization was/is key to their own self-image and self-esteem. I may wish it was different, but the perceptions of strangers (not to mention friends) matters. Being un-gendered by a clerk at the store who calls you "sir" is a blow, teens at the mall insulting you is a blow, folks laughing as yuo pass them .. you get what I'm saying. The confidance of having something as basic as your gender affirmed unconciously on a daily basis cannot be over stated.

The reality is, most Trans*women can pass, given the means and access to do so. By "pass" I mean they can walk outside in daylight and not get insulted. They aren't porn chick sexy, they look like the average woman they are. So, "passing" is critical for the general well-being of most Trans*women. Being sexually desireable (for me) was way way down on the list.

[smolderingtemptress]

That's exactly right. Genetic women come in all different sizes, shapes, colors, etc. and it's the same with transsexual women as well. I've seen some rather manly looking GGs but no one questions them because it's still obvious that they're women. There's way too much pressure in the TS community to adhere to an (in my opinion) exaggerated ideal of feminine beauty, and I think that can be detrimental for transition. Not only do we need to look like the women we are, but we feel we have to look above and beyond GGs with regards to "beauty".

The admirers are always saying TS are even more feminine/beautiful than GGs... You would hope it's a little bit about the personality as well.

[Limegirl]

Originally Posted by Bionca

There needs to be a clarification I think. To guys who love/date/fuck/admire/jerk-off to Trans*Women so often "Passing" = "pretty".

In my case, as well as most T-Gals I know, hormonal and surgical femiization was/is key to their own self-image and self-esteem. I may wish it was different, but the perceptions of strangers (not to mention friends) matters. Being un-gendered by a clerk at the store who calls you "sir" is a blow, teens at the mall insulting you is a blow, folks laughing as yuo pass them .. you get what I'm saying. The confidance of having something as basic as your gender affirmed unconciously on a daily basis cannot be over stated.

The reality is, most Trans*women can pass, given the means and access to do so. By "pass" I mean they can walk outside in daylight and not get insulted. They aren't porn chick sexy, they look like the average woman they are. So, "passing" is critical for the general well-being of most Trans*women. Being sexually desireable (for me) was way way down on the list.

I couldn´t say it better myself, you put your finger right on the spot Bionca!

[jimnaseum]

I told my psychiatrist that if I ever became famous as an artist that he should tell people that I was completely insane, but if I stayed a loser to please keep my records confidential.

[CreativeMind]

Originally Posted by TSmelissacarter

Creative, I can always count on you to read my every word unfortunately I cannot return the favor.

You can contact me privately whenever you are ready for our date bring lube.

Translation: "Creative, I know you're right, but I can't admit it openly.
Otherwise my truly fucked-up ego would crumble and I'd have no reason to exist."

As for bringing lube to any date with you, a far better tip for all of your clients
would probably be to bring massive doses of antibiotics given your profession...