Barack Obama

[Limegirl]

Originally Posted by CreativeMind

In short: it's NEVER a good thing to lecture Americans on "true liberalism" or to lecture us on how we need to become a more "socially just" place. True ultra left liberalism is NOT who we are at heart. It's NOT a political philosophy that our country was founded on back in 1776 -- in fact, it's the polar opposite, which is why the average American voter...even to this day...still opposes it so much. So saying things like that -- as Obama has now found out -- only acts like a bucket of cold water to the face, at which point Americans remember that we LIKE being capitalists and we DO believe that our ways are superior. At which point we'll vote for the President who will give the middle finger to the rest of the "liberal and socialist" countries of the world because we, as Americans, want NO part of that.

Well, thats true, every country has its own way to see things depending its own historical heritage, most americans are people comming from Europe flewing poverty, political and religius opression toi create themselves a new life free of all that they left behind..
In contradictionary to that many European countries(not the easten ones) the word socialism have stand for something very good, justice, equality, fairness when its achived in the democratic socialdemocratic cote, not of cuz in the twisted comunist/socialist cote that comes from the former Sovietunion, thats another story.
In many western european countrues like in Scandinavia and Germany has
succeeded to create strong welfare states who has combined the econmical strengt of the efficient capatalist market and good social security and benefits for the citizens by economical transformations by taxes,
This kind of politic should be totally political impossible to achiv in America cuz of its historical traditions and heritage and the opposit, Americas politics should be totally political impossible to archive in many westeurpean countries cuz of their traditions and historical heritage..
Americans often see Comunism and twisted socialism in its Soviet version when they hear about liberalism, socialism etc they are not able to separate socialdemocrats from Soviet comunism, who is two total different things.. Europeans instead often see fairness and justice when they hear about american liberalism and they often see the average Americans opinions as egoistic, primitive and brutal..there people are left on their own and blamed if they failed in life as always their own fault..
This total different views often creates collisions and missunderstandings between them..is it ever possible to make a bridge between this two mentallity gaps and create a constructive dialogue..?

/Limegirl

[CreativeMind]

Originally Posted by Limegirl

This total different views often creates collisions and missunderstandings between them..is it ever possible to make a bridge between this two mentallity gaps and create a constructive dialogue..? l

Limegirl, I think there's always room for constructive dialogue between countries or even people. However, for there to ever be a REAL constructive dialogue, you have to START by understanding the other person that's sitting across the table from you and realizing that THEIR country or THEIR beliefs or THEIR concepts of government and social justice may not be yours. And therefore you can't open a successful dialogue by just outright mocking them or criticizing them or dismissing their views.

The best example is what Hank wrote and reading what I wrote, and then realizing how apart we actually are. Now, I've never met Hank (so hello, Hank!) but based on his posts at this site I'll take a guess and assume that he's basically an okay guy. Or least he seems to be. And in return I'd like to think that I'm a pretty nice guy, too!

But the second that someone like Hank starts saying that America (as a country) and that we as Americans (as a people) need to be more Liberal and Leftist or more Socialistic or Progressive (or whatever term you want to pick) in our political beliefs -- or in the way that we act as a society -- is the moment that he's going to lose a lot of listeners -- at least here in America -- since those political beliefs that he likes to espouse are 180 degrees and completely opposite from what Americans actually believe in.

Now, the rest of the world might not like hearing that. The rest of the world may feel that America somehow "owes it to them" to bend to their global will or their personal requests, but it just isn't going to happen. And that's because the minute the rest of the world starts making demands on America is the moment that we, as Americans, will remember WHY our country was founded in the first place. Namely, it was created by people who came here because they REJECTED European political beliefs. And I hate to break this to the Euro crowd out there, but here in America we like you...we're happy to be your friends...but we still feel the exact same way that we did over 200 years ago. Which means we STILL reject your European concepts of government or your particular views on how a society should be ruled.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by CreativeMind

Now, the rest of the world might not like hearing that. The rest of the world may feel that America somehow "owes it to them" to bend to their global will or their personal requests, but it just isn't going to happen.

It isn't? Imagine Obama in office. Look at this at 5:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJQ4O0KHeVo

It's just neighborliness! LOL

[Limegirl]

Originally Posted by CreativeMind

Limegirl, I think there's always room for constructive dialogue between countries or even people. However, for there to ever be a REAL constructive dialogue, you have to START by understanding the other person that's sitting across the table from you and realizing that THEIR country or THEIR beliefs or THEIR concepts of government and social justice may not be yours. And therefore you can't open a successful dialogue by just outright mocking them or criticizing them or dismissing their views.

Now, the rest of the world might not like hearing that. The rest of the world may feel that America somehow "owes it to them" to bend to their global will or their personal requests, but it just isn't going to happen. And that's because the minute the rest of the world starts making demands on America is the moment that we, as Americans, will remember WHY our country was founded in the first place. Namely, it was created by people who came here because they REJECTED European political beliefs. And I hate to break this to the Euro crowd out there, but here in America we like you...we're happy to be your friends...but we still feel the exact same way that we did over 200 years ago. Which means we STILL reject your European concepts of government or your particular views on how a society should be ruled.

In one way I understand what you meant to say and one way I dont...
America and Europe is 2 different places with total differnent historical experiences, America is built mostly by european immigrants who flewed poverty, political and religius opression and therefore it have this tradition of individual freedom and hatred against anything they may feel is a theat to this
freedom...these threats are often called lefties,communists, socialism or what ever...in Westen Europe people have diffuclties sometimes to understand that point of view, cuz in Europe "Socialism" not necessery means what it means in America..a way to Sovietcommunism,Gulag etc...there is democratic socialism too that respect the rules of democracy to its full point, and many countries in Europe that have been ruled by what in Americans called "Communist" or Socialistic regimes had been very proseprous and give its poulations and incredible standard of living, welfare benefits and freedom...and these regimes has been elected by the people in free elections...we live in a complicateded and complex reality with no easy answers...America is the greatest superpower in the world with an enomurous economical and military strenght..Americas concerns is the whole worlds concerns..cuz it actions affect the whole world..and therefore it must take critism...but America is Europes salvation in many ways..it takes the enomourus hordes of the owercrowed Europe and give them a new life..its safed Europe from both nazy and communist rule under Hitler or Stalin...
There is no "right" or "wrong" here I think..I can understand both the American AND the European point of views..
BUT I have difficulties with the fact when people refere to "God" to justifie their own opions..thats pure powerplay...everyone can justifice almost everything and just say that "God" gves them the holy right to act as they do..Then the American indians could say that "God" gives them the holy right to take back their land the white people stole from them..A whole more fair demand then the jews demands, who refers to "God" when they take the land Israel/Palestine from the palestines..a land they have not lived in for 2000 years...How should the map in the world look like if every people should begin to refer to "God" and wanted back all the land they lost in history..?

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by CreativeMind

Now, the rest of the world might not like hearing that. The rest of the world may feel that America somehow "owes it to them" to bend to their global will or their personal requests, but it just isn't going to happen.

Oh, I also found this:
Obama sponsored the "Global Poverty Act" designed to send hundreds of billions of dollars of U.S. foreign aid to the rest of the world, in order to meet U.N. demands. The bill has passed the House and a Senate committee, and awaits full Senate action.