Do You Guys Really Care???

[charlietwobeans]

OK, I just don't get it, so I will make one attempt to seek clarity:

Hank - I don't disagree with your premise if it comes with the qualifier of "exploitive porn producers", but Krissy's main point here was "please don't screw those of us who are making a living on our own, independent of producers, by stealing or illegally posting our stuff".

Transgendered or GG, porn or music, there is a fundamental difference between the big-business labels and the independent artists - their work covers every aspect of the industry, from production to marketing. They are not "just the talent", they are the engine and the brains behind the product.

And Krissy's post came in direct response to what a lot of us had posted - skip paying for the material and just find it on free sites.

While I don't advocate stealing licensed material, I also do little to stop it (shame on me). But by Krissy making this plea, she's put a more human face on the theft because she is directly affected by this - not just her bottom line, but her bottom (and other things)

So I support her in her request to "not get screwed" through theft of licensed material....why is that so hard to get behind?

Maybe she used phraseology that doesn't quite fit the bill, but it didn't send me (or, it seems anyone else but you) spiraling into a fit of rage.

That's all I've got. I hope I haven't fueled the fire - not my intent.

Cheers.

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by charlietwobeans

OK, I just don't get it, so I will make one attempt to seek clarity:

Hank - I don't disagree with your premise if it comes with the qualifier of "exploitive porn producers", but Krissy's main point here was "please don't screw those of us who are making a living on our own, independent of producers, by stealing or illegally posting our stuff".

Transgendered or GG, porn or music, there is a fundamental difference between the big-business labels and the independent artists - their work covers every aspect of the industry, from production to marketing. They are not "just the talent", they are the engine and the brains behind the product.

And Krissy's post came in direct response to what a lot of us had posted - skip paying for the material and just find it on free sites.

While I don't advocate stealing licensed material, I also do little to stop it (shame on me). But by Krissy making this plea, she's put a more human face on the theft because she is directly affected by this - not just her bottom line, but her bottom (and other things)

So I support her in her request to "not get screwed" through theft of licensed material....why is that so hard to get behind?

Maybe she used phraseology that doesn't quite fit the bill, but it didn't send me (or, it seems anyone else but you) spiraling into a fit of rage.

That's all I've got. I hope I haven't fueled the fire - not my intent.

Cheers.

No fires fueled that haven't already almost died out :-) I'm not on a crusade against the porn-industry here. What I'm after is a false claim that it helps trans*women if ppl pay for their porn stuff. That's a false statement.

Surely, piracy is no good, but it's already been stated way up above that the ladies get a once-and-for all payment, and that's it. So piracy hurts the continouos flow of income to the porn-mob. And that has little to do with transsexuality and a genuine care for the ladies' continouos well-being

HYPOCRACY large economy size!

Piracy hurts anyone why markets easily digitally copied products - myself included.

Furthermore, the negative brand-value that transsexuality as a whole gains from porn is immensely large. It cannot be measured in marketing dollars but it can be measured in lost souls... the highest suicide rate among any group, alienation etc. Nasty stuff. And I can assure you that the porn-industry doesn't give a rat's ass about that.

Transsexuals are FREAKS... in the eyes of the whole world including America :-) Weirdos with a woman's mind and a man's body... sad fucks who everybody understands are just pathetic and ugly creatures with no real right to say anything... except ofcourse moaning on command in sleazy videos when they have to endure being screwed by ugly guys...

So I'm sorry, my points hold water, and under no circumstances will I accept the argument that if we buy the movies, everybody will be happy.

And that point has conveniently been left out of the debate - and when I brought it up I was unsurprisingly being accused of being shallow and hypocritical...

I rest my case... make you own judgement.

Hank

[GroobyKrissy]

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

So I'm sorry, my points hold water, and under no circumstances will I accept the argument that if we buy the movies, everybody will be happy.

And that point has conveniently been left out of the debate - and when I brought it up I was unsurprisingly being accused of being shallow and hypocritical...

I rest my case... make you own judgement.

So, here I find myself answering you again.

PLEASE... tell me WHERE I said that if you 'buy the movies, everybody will be happy.' ?? I have never stated such a thing or implied that the porn industry is a bed of roses.

And, I'm pretty sure that I've answered you points (the few there besides the namecalling). You on the other hand have not answered a SINGLE point I asked except to call it irrelevant.

I do not need to drag out a dictionary to state that you're being hypocritical in saying you care so much about the TS Community and yet you support the very industry that you're so adamantly opposed to. Let's see...

HANK - HATES the 'damage' that the Porn Industry does to the souls of the models they hire.

HANK - Admittedly uses porn and hires TS prostitutes... probably perpetuating a lifestyle for those whom he hires.

YEP... sounds like hypocrisy to me.

You obviously have some issues with your own sexuality and are alleviating your conscience by displacing your own feelings of guilt on the industry, which you think makes you stand out as a bright beacon in a seedy world. FAIL.

I won't speak for other companies but I don't think it's out of place to say that Grooby Productions has probably donated more time, energy, and dollars in ONE MONTH towards promoting TS rights awareness via blogs, ts message boards, and supporting models who CHOOSE to stay in the industry, than you have in your lifetime.

What's the last letter you wrote to your Congressmen / women about TS rights? I've written five in the last month regarding local issues here in PDX and in Oregon. What are you doing in Indonesia to raise human rights awareness, besides hiring prostitutes (cheap blow I know)?

SO... it is NOT at all irrelevant to ask you HOW you're helping the TS Community that you SEEM to care so much about? How many of those damaged souls are you repairing? How much time and energy are you devoting to making sure those prostitutes you hire are making good life decisions and getting out of a self-perpetuating cycle? Cause if you're doing NOTHING, except railing away on message boards (as I suspect), then you ARE a hypocrite. And by portraying yourself as something otherwise IS shallow.

OK, I tire of arguing with you. This is my final post on the matter in response to you. Others, I'll respond accordingly.

[charlietwobeans]

Originally Posted by GroobyKrissy

...then you ARE a hypocrite....

thank you for spelling it correctly - that had been bothering me for some time but I felt I would be too pedantic to point it out

[ila]

Originally Posted by charlietwobeans

thank you for spelling it correctly - that had been bothering me for some time but I felt I would be too pedantic to point it out

I can understand and accept spelling mistakes from those whose mother tongue is not English (even though hypocrite has its roots in Greek).

[seanchai]

What an absolute load of bollocks you speak Hank.
I know 100's of happy, secure and confident transwoman - some of whom have worked in the adult industry and many of whom haven't. You can't get past the fact, that working in a adult industry and caring about the people you work with, is not necessarily mutually exclusive and your examples are hypocritical and ill though out.

Your a sad sad case, whose shown his true colours for how he feels about the trans-community by claiming to empathize with these individuals yet at the same time insulting and belittling them.
Very very poor.

[charlietwobeans]

Originally Posted by ila

I can understand and accept spelling mistakes from those whose mother tongue is not English (even though hypocrite has its roots in Greek).

Just a little levity, Ila. No harm intended.

[GroobyKrissy]

Originally Posted by charlietwobeans

thank you for spelling it correctly - that had been bothering me for some time but I felt I would be too pedantic to point it out

LOL... yeah, I had a tough English/Latin teacher in school. At times I get lazy but for the most part, I try to have good spelling and grammar. So, you're welcome

[charlietwobeans]

Originally Posted by GroobyKrissy

LOL... yeah, I had a tough English/Latin teacher in school. At times I get lazy but for the most part, I try to have good spelling and grammar. So, you're welcome

I was taught Latin for 4 years by Sister Frank of the Holy Order of Benedictine Nuns. Lots of knuckle whacking, but I loved that dear old woman, all 4'9" of her.

[GroobyKrissy]

Originally Posted by charlietwobeans

I was taught Latin for 4 years by Sister Frank of the Holy Order of Benedictine Nuns. Lots of knuckle whacking, but I loved that dear old woman, all 4'9" of her.

Ugggg... I hated Latin... she tried to make it fun with Winnie Ille Pu but no go. At the time I was like, why learn a dead language. Now, I'm glad that I did!

[Jenae LaTorque]

....be okay with that. I considered that scenario when I posted them. And no, wouldn't bother me a bit. Actually that is not a good compaison as the basic materials I used are already on the net; I just gussied them up and formulated them in a format that was more enjoyable to look at. That is not the same as if someone took my avator and profile pics and used them as adverts for an escort service which is more akin to your problem. The question then should be if this would bother me. Yes, but not unduly as the same holds true there alos. That is just me gussied up and presented in a more enjoyable format, I think LOL

I believe I do understand your case but I really do believe that it does come with the territory, and while you have every right to fight it, I don't have a lot of sympathy for your plight.

I don't think you really caught the nuances of the fishes and loaves analogy. Let's recapture what happened.

Your case. Someone had to pay in the beginning to get the video off of your site did they not? They then multiplied it by making it availible to others with no compensation to you the originator,

Biblical case. Someone had to pay for the origianal loaves and fishes did they not? They then were multiplied and distributed with no compensation to the baker and fisherman who produced the originals.

Can you see where there is little differance between the two scenarios?

[GroobyKrissy]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

Biblical case. Someone had to pay for the origianal loaves and fishes did they not? They then were multiplied and distributed with no compensation to the baker and fisherman who produced the originals.

Can you see where there is little differance between the two scenarios?

HUGE DIFFERENCE in your allegory. The purchasing of goods (i.e. - loaves and fishes here) is an infinite purchase. That is, the buyor is assuming OWNERSHIP. In the example of DIGITAL MEDIA for a website, AT NO TIME does the purchase of a membership entitle the person TO OWN the media. That is CLEARLY stated in all TERMS and CONDITIONS that I've ever come across. Membership to a paysite allows the user to VIEW and DOWNLOAD the content NOT to distribute it.

I'm a little surprised that I even have to explain that as the difference in your loaves and fishes allegory.

You cannot compare the purchase of a consumable item with an intangible item with intellectual copyright laws protecting it. It is a poor allegory and will break down at the point I'm pointing out.

And, I do think you would mind someone taking your creative endeavors and making money off of it without crediting or compensating you, as much as you say you wouldn't. Obviously, I'm not going to do that, so there's no way to prove my case, but I think if you saw a website pop up with all your works displayed on it and no credit to you at all, I think you'd be emailing the owner. The very fact that you include the thread in your signature and post about it, is enough to show at the very least, you'd like some recognition for your work.

[Jenae LaTorque]

[And, I do think you would mind someone taking your creative endeavors and making money off of it without crediting or compensating you, as much as you say you wouldn't. Obviously, I'm not going to do that, so there's no way to prove my case, but I think if you saw a website pop up with all your works displayed on it and no credit to you at all, I think you'd be emailing the owner. The very fact that you include the thread in your signature and post about it, is enough to show at the very least, you'd like some recognition for your work.[/quote]


Maybe I'm just too damn old and jaded because; I honestly wouldn't give a rat's ass about any of that. As I expained in one of my early posts, I composed the pages for my own enjoyment, and it is no skin off my butt to share them. I realize that you feel you are losing financially which of course gives you a differant perspective, but that doesn't give you the right to insinuate that I'm a liar. I said that someone using those pics would not bother me a lot. I did not say that I would be not be upset in a case involving theft of my intellectual property.

I also have no problem seeing that you feel there is a big differance between the two cases in the allegory while I see it as a little differance. The way we feel about each and every thing is colored by the associations our mind makes with that particular thing. The man who nearly drowned in a lake has a differant associations in his mind with it than the man who met his wife and true love while boating on it. So, big differance for you, little differance for me, just a matter of perspective then.

One question you haven't addressed is that concerning the possibility of the pirated video leading someone to your site and your subsequant enrichment. So...?

[GroobyKrissy]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

I also have no problem seeing that you feel there is a big differance between the two cases in the allegory while I see it as a little differance. The way we feel about each and every thing is colored by the associations our mind makes with that particular thing. The man who nearly drowned in a lake has a differant associations in his mind with it than the man who met his wife and true love while boating on it. So, big differance for you, little differance for me, just a matter of perspective then.

One question you haven't addressed is that concerning the possibility of the pirated video leading someone to your site and your subsequant enrichment. So...?

Sorry Jenae...

I didn't mean to insinuate that you're lying...only that you really won't fully understand the point of view we as site owners have since you don't 'market' content.

And, actually, what you said was that you'd be... OK with what I proposed. Which was someone taking your content, marketing it as their own, and selling it. Now I notice you've added the caveat that it wouldn't bother you... a lot. And I tell you... the more you saw the site making money off your content, the more that 'wouldn't bother you... a lot' would turn into 'kill those mother-------.'

But... thanks for the free content... typically, I pay between $40-$80 for a photoset but now I can save that cash and just use your wallpapers for an update. I'm sure lots of other site owners would be more than happy to use this free content as well to add content to their sites, especially since they can market as their own. Wow... my photoshop skills just went into overdrive without one single lesson! Me and the Members of my site thank you very much!

And, I really don't want to start bad blood between the two of us. I respect your opinions and you've been great to converse with. But, let me say... again, your choice of allegory is bad. The guy who drowns in the lake has no opinions on the matter. He's dead and therefore has no perspective. If he were to survive, who knows... it may be his favorite lake and he may still love it. People who have been savagely brutalized by animals still love them. But, that's besides the point...to answer your question...

THE HARM that is done with a whole video being illegally posted FAR outweighs the cost benefits of the VERY FEW who will join a site after viewing it. I don't think there is ANY site owner who would deny that. Find me one and I'll either show you someone who has no financial investment into the site or has a very poorly run business record, i.e. - he's not paying taxes and etc... which, btw... I do. I run a legitimate business. Registered. Pay taxes. Pay local taxes. Do my civic duties. Anyway...

In THAT case, you allegory would be good. A bakery may as well give out free loaves of bread in the hopes that someone will like it enough to come back and buy one. Not in a million years. There will be the one or two out of a thousand who have a moral inclination to do so but the VAST and OVERWHELMING majority would definitely not. It's human nature. If you see FREE on one site and $10.00 on the other for the same item... what are you going to choose.

In the case of torrent sites, if someone doesn't find the content he is looking for, he'll most likely keep searching the site until he does... NOT go directly to the site where the content originated. People who download content illegally from a site often have other consequences for the site owner that are hard to quantify. They usually use some sort of BOT to download multiple videos at once which kills bandwidth and can render the site unusable for other members. Those members in turn get frustrated and quit their memberships. Thus, they are not only taking content with the intention of deliberately spreading it, they are also cost the site other members who would have stayed. And yes, this IS from personal and direct experience. Most sites now implement some sort of program that will defeat multiple downloads at one time for this very purpose but many smaller sites simply can not afford to implement these programs.

C'mon.. let's be realistic. You're trying to justify something you don't really care that much about because it doesn't affect you. It affects me personally and I have a stake in it.

All I'm saying at the start of this whole thread is that if you claim to really enjoy a particular model or site, join it for a month and help support the industry instead of getting your rocks off for free on someone else's dime.

[Mandy]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

One question you haven't addressed is that concerning the possibility of the pirated video leading someone to your site and your subsequent enrichment. So...?

I'm sure there are a few people who like to sample free porn before purchasing it, but it just doesn't offset the number of people who happily bust a nut and then download something free the next time they get a craving for trannyporn.

I am pessimistic about it all though, seems like trying to stop a flood with an umbrella.

And I admit to watching free porn to check out models I'm interested in (so I'm guilty as charged).

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by GroobyKrissy

So, here I find myself answering you again.

PLEASE... tell me WHERE I said that if you 'buy the movies, everybody will be happy.' ?? I have never stated such a thing or implied that the porn industry is a bed of roses.

And, I'm pretty sure that I've answered you points (the few there besides the namecalling). You on the other hand have not answered a SINGLE point I asked except to call it irrelevant.

I do not need to drag out a dictionary to state that you're being hypocritical in saying you care so much about the TS Community and yet you support the very industry that you're so adamantly opposed to. Let's see...

HANK - HATES the 'damage' that the Porn Industry does to the souls of the models they hire.

HANK - Admittedly uses porn and hires TS prostitutes... probably perpetuating a lifestyle for those whom he hires.

YEP... sounds like hypocrisy to me.

You obviously have some issues with your own sexuality and are alleviating your conscience by displacing your own feelings of guilt on the industry, which you think makes you stand out as a bright beacon in a seedy world. FAIL.

I won't speak for other companies but I don't think it's out of place to say that Grooby Productions has probably donated more time, energy, and dollars in ONE MONTH towards promoting TS rights awareness via blogs, ts message boards, and supporting models who CHOOSE to stay in the industry, than you have in your lifetime.

What's the last letter you wrote to your Congressmen / women about TS rights? I've written five in the last month regarding local issues here in PDX and in Oregon. What are you doing in Indonesia to raise human rights awareness, besides hiring prostitutes (cheap blow I know)?

SO... it is NOT at all irrelevant to ask you HOW you're helping the TS Community that you SEEM to care so much about? How many of those damaged souls are you repairing? How much time and energy are you devoting to making sure those prostitutes you hire are making good life decisions and getting out of a self-perpetuating cycle? Cause if you're doing NOTHING, except railing away on message boards (as I suspect), then you ARE a hypocrite. And by portraying yourself as something otherwise IS shallow.

OK, I tire of arguing with you. This is my final post on the matter in response to you. Others, I'll respond accordingly.

Krissy, I already rested my case, and you and I will never be able to agree on these matters. So I will not comment on your current post here.

If you feel that I went after you personally, then I do apologize - it was your concept and not your person I was after.

I'm sure you're a nice person and that we under different circumstances could have been good friends.

So be it.

Peace!

Hank

[Mandy]

Piracy results in an overall depression of wages and earnings for models, since the producers will try and maintain their profit margins at all costs. This ends up shutting down projects run by Trans women and sending models to a handful of companies that are big enough that they can continue operating regardless of piracy. Arguably, since it is admitted that TS rely to a heavy extent on the sex trade for basic survival, this is bad for the TS community. Whats more, because there are so few companies that are big enough to earn a profit TS are forced to work without much bargaining power regarding wages.