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randolph · #1 07-31-2009

The intelligent design believers need to be reminded that humans took spider web genes from spiders, inserted them into goat eggs. Then raised the goats and guess what! The goats produce spider web in their milk!
It is only a matter of time until humans will be producing life from inert materials.

TS_aficionado · #2 07-31-2009

TracyCoxx:

"Is there only one or very few? No, there are billions - each sharing many commonalities but also subtle differences."

One human would obviously enough be designed. Billions would be an open and shut case.

"Are there other varieties of these things that suggests some kind of heritage? Yes, there are a wide range of other life forms and fossil records ranging from apes to amoebas that suggest a heritage of traits. Ranging from simple life forms 3.8 billion years ago to complex life forms seen now."

That suggestion is merely a something some Earthlings believe (a theory). It is not a fact.

"Do they demonstrate any means of reproduction which evolution would require? "

But reproduction does not go against intelligent design. The designer created this mechanism to allow the different species to continue existing.

"Conclusion: Humans evolved here."

If we take your previous points, then this the scenario we need to believe happened: There was nothing. Then (somehow) planets and materials existed. Then (somehow) simple life forms existed (this is miraculous on its own). Then amazingly enough, and without any guiding hand, this simple life form (somehow) got more complex over time. Then (somehow) it developed intelligence and consciousness. Then (somehow) it became millions upon millions of different species, including humans. Even an Atheist would require God for a somehow-laced scenario like that. If you take the somehows and fill in the blanks with "over the course of billions of years", that won't make it any more plausible, since order can not form in a random environment. Again, this is akin to putting all the right materials somewhere, then after billions of years expecting the materials to somehow put themselves together, form a computer, then form artificial intelligence. Impossible. Even more impossible if we expect inanimate objects to form real intelligence, language, DNA, life and consciousness.

TS_aficionado · #3 07-31-2009

Randolph:

"The intelligent design believers need to be reminded that humans took spider web genes from spiders, inserted them into goat eggs. Then raised the goats and guess what! The goats produce spider web in their milk!
It is only a matter of time until humans will be producing life from inert materials."

Ah, but you forgot that in order for that spider web goat milk to happen, it *required* an intelligent force (this time humans) who created the right environments then supervised this process until its success

The same thing with the universe: it required an intelligent force (God) to create all this material out of literally nothing, then provide us with the means to procreate and continue to exist. Even our orbit is meticulously calculated: a little further away from the sun, we'd freeze. A little closer, we'd burn. Gravity, plants, animals, everything is there for us to keep existing. Personally I'd go with a supernatural, intelligent designer than some big galactic coincidence.

TS_aficionado · #4 07-31-2009

Angry Postman: Thank you for your candor. Cheers

Tread · #5 07-31-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by TS_aficionado

If we take your previous points, then this the scenario we need to believe happened: There was nothing. Then (somehow) planets and materials existed. Then (somehow) simple life forms existed (this is miraculous on its own). Then amazingly enough, and without any guiding hand, this simple life form (somehow) got more complex over time. Then (somehow) it developed intelligence and consciousness. Then (somehow) it became millions upon millions of different species, including humans. Even an Atheist would require God for a somehow-laced scenario like that. If you take the somehows and fill in the blanks with "over the course of billions of years", that won't make it any more plausible, since order can not form in a random environment. Again, this is akin to putting all the right materials somewhere, then after billions of years expecting the materials to somehow put themselves together, form a computer, then form artificial intelligence. Impossible. Even more impossible if we expect inanimate objects to form real intelligence, language, DNA, life and consciousness.

Who said that first was nothing? No accepted Theories know what was in the beginning of our universe. But not knowing does not say that there was nothing, or something must create this.

I skip some time periods that are way under 1 second and I keep it simple and short. I skip antiparticles as well. The universe cools rapidly, Quarks occur. Quarks form Hadrons, which form Protons, Neutrons and Neutrinos. Leptons occur like Electrons. After 10 seconds Protons and Neutrons had a nuclear fusion to the first Atoms (first materials).
Planets occur much later. About 1 million years cloud of matter collapse because of gravitation. This created stars, planets and galaxies.

Chemical reactions formed Amino Acids, Lipids and Purines. They are all essential for our life forms. This is proven, search for chemical evolution and/or the Miller-Urey experiment, this is the most common.
Life itself gets more complicated. What is life? Define life so I don't have to explain everything. Must there be a Metabolism, Growth, Reproduction, and so on. Focus on Virus, Viroid, Prion, Fire, Cell, Spore(not the game) and Cryptobiosis. I'm not all knowing, but I try to answer further questions on life, it doesn't occur suddenly.

Microorganism can cooperate with other, and they exchange DNA. The DNA can grow by adding other DNA, or two Microorganisms live symbiotic and fusion together so that more than one DNA string is in a cell, typical for Microorganism. The complexity comes over time. I don't think I have to explain evolution. But if you have doubts about it and understand biology and genetic, than take a closer look at Epigenetics. Especially the problem with the "random mutations"

Jenae LaTorque · #6 07-31-2009

Same story in a new location.

On one side you have the anti Intelligent Design Theory people who can present scientific facts that back up their position. They have no problem understanding the other sides position since they are human also and are susceptible to the same influences. Don't think they don't wish in their hearts for "pie in the sky". They however have been able to look at matters as they are, and not how they wish they could be.

On the other side, you have the Intelligent Design advocates who usually can demonstrate only their ignorance of scientific matters. They look at a structure like the eye and think how could something this complex evolve. Do they take the time to go on the net or find a book that shows the evolution of the eye step by step? No, they would rather wallow in their ignorance and remain in the dark ages.

They will say that some scientist doesn't believe in evolution and use them as a source of authority. If they knew their history, they would know that at one time the majority of scientists didn't believe man would ever be able to fly. Yet here we are with millions of people flying every year. Just because someone is termed scientist doesn't make him the authority. Scientific authority is arrived at by a consensus of scientists which in itself is constantly evolving as new theories are confirmed or negated by scientific studies.

One important thing to remember in this evolution vs God controversy is that religion (the idea of God or Gods) has had a big head start. It is only recently, the last few hundred years, that the sciences have really been able to begin to brush away the fog that is man's ignorance of the universe about us. The Intelligent Design theory is just religion's latest attempt to hold back the tide that is sweeping away all that they once held as truth. The Catholic Church no longer disputes that evolution is a fact. Think about that for a bit. This is the same organization that once tortured, burned, and hung people for believing anything but strict canon.

There is no evidence of a creator, I repeat; THERE IS NO EVIDENCE!!!
And yes, I have looked at so called evidence that makes the objections presented here seem like the simple nitpicking of schoolkids that they are.I say to you nitpickers, "Until you have really read the literature and understand what the Theory of Evolution is about, you are only displaying your ignorance."

Jenae LaTorque · #7 07-31-2009

But I doubt many of the ID folk understood it.

Actually, the religious folks have my sympathy. They have been conditioned by a culture that has religious belief as one of the main under pinnings of the foundation. It is very hard to put the nonsense behind you to really look at what is proven fact. Even so, think how hard it was for someone like Galileo to go against the teachings of the church and to assert that the sun and not the earth was at the center of the solar system. I'd say he was damn fortunate to not lose his life completely over it.

I have a challenge for the ID people. Present one solid piece of evidence that indicates that there is a Creator. Show me one thing that cannot be explained by any other factor than that there was a creator who made it so. I double dare ya!

I'll warn you now that simply because we don't know how something came to be does not by default mean that there is intelligent design responsible for it; all it means is that we dont know, YET!

TracyCoxx · #8 08-01-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by TS_aficionado

"Are there other varieties of these things that suggests some kind of heritage? Yes, there are a wide range of other life forms and fossil records ranging from apes to amoebas that suggest a heritage of traits. Ranging from simple life forms 3.8 billion years ago to complex life forms seen now."

That suggestion is merely a something some Earthlings believe (a theory). It is not a fact.

Of course it's a theory, as is everything in science. It's not just a hypothesis. It's a theory that is backed up by observational evidence and used to predict results that experiments have confirmed. Calling something a theory does not mean it's BS. We have a theory of the atom. From that theory we have all the marvels of modern life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TS_aficionado

"Do they demonstrate any means of reproduction which evolution would require? "

But reproduction does not go against intelligent design. The designer created this mechanism to allow the different species to continue existing.

By itself it is not proof of evolution. But it is required for evolution. If this computer on Jupiter does not reproduce, we can immediately rule out evolution.

An Intelligent Design theory invalidates itself. It makes the assumption that complex entities cannot exist without being designed. A designer would have to be much more complex than what he has allegedly designed, and would therefore require an even more complex designer.... and so on. Until this paradox is addressed, the intelligent design hypothesis falls flat on its face.

And yes, Intelligent Design is only a hypothesis. It does not even reach a status that you ridicule, which is a theory. To advance beyond a hypothesis, intelligent design needs to make a prediction. Then an experiment would have to be designed to test the prediction. This has not been done. After the experiment confirms the prediction, the hypothesis will remain as is, or may need to be tweaked based on observations. This process is repeated over and over again until the hypothesis can reliably predict outcomes and explain observations. Intelligent design has done none of this. Evolution has.

The Conquistador · #9 08-01-2009

Jenae, why must you attack mine and others beliefs? Have you nothing better to do than to revert to ad hominem? I believe in a higher power because too many things are in too perfect order to be left to coincidence. I never said that you had to believe in what I said. I just gave an explanation of why. I never threatened to thump you over the head with a bible and flay you because you have differing beliefs. Don't ask a question if the purpose is to blast someone for difference of opinion. It is rather rude.

#10 08-01-2009

when i reach the crossroads should i proceed forwards or go left or right ?

The Conquistador · #11 08-01-2009

Just go wherever the road takes you. But since I'm right handed, I say go right.

TracyCoxx · #12 08-01-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

I believe in a higher power because too many things are in too perfect order to be left to coincidence.

Perfect order? How do you explain Obama being president? People say the earth is so perfect for life too. Well it has to be. Otherwise life wouldn't be here. I mean, no one's going to be crawling around on Mercury saying how unsuitable their world is for life because mercury IS unsuitable for life. Odds are, there are a few, maybe many, planets around the universe where conditions are right for life. On those planets there is probably some form of life. Life that has reached a level of intelligence will be marveling at how perfect their world is for life. Everywhere else, it's hell. You'd either need some kind of life support system or it would be downright impossible to life there at all.

randolph · #13 08-01-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Perfect order? How do you explain Obama being president? People say the earth is so perfect for life too. Well it has to be. Otherwise life wouldn't be here. I mean, no one's going to be crawling around on Mercury saying how unsuitable their world is for life because mercury IS unsuitable for life. Odds are, there are a few, maybe many, planets around the universe where conditions are right for life. On those planets there is probably some form of life. Life that has reached a level of intelligence will be marveling at how perfect their world is for life. Everywhere else, it's hell. You'd either need some kind of life support system or it would be downright impossible to life there at all.

You seem to be saying that Obama fits into the perfect order of life on earth, well I agree with you, he is a great example of a human being, smart intelligent, good looking, healthy and extremely irritating to conservatives. So you are not really conservative?

TracyCoxx · #14 08-01-2009

Yeah right