I give up

[hankhavelock]

Hmmm... let me just follow up a little bit on my posting above.

Had it been today, I would probably find a discreet yet clear way to send you the message that not only was I interested but I also knew your gender "secret" - that is if I knew. One "safe" way would be over the lunch table in the office to bring up a topic related to transgender issues and like that sending you the message in public yet in general... yet very very personal. I would then expect you to pick up the message without revealing yourself.

Had it been three years ago I would have been a bit more fumbling, I think, and a bit more in doubt as to how I approach you - I would definitely have used the coffee-thing as well and given you hints that I'm interested in you. But I'd probably have been a bit more confused about the gender-thing and how to get my message through to you. But then again, I'm sure I'd have found a subtle way.

My point is that you have to be a bit of a mind reader. Most people are so insecure especially when we get into taboos.

The poor man may be horrified by the prospect of all the words he'd be called by "friends" - and then again he may not... you have to figure out a way to detect the signals, Bionca. It's much easier for me, because I know if she is transsexual, and then I can approach her honestly and openly. It's more tricky for you as you cannot immediately judge if he's a sincere "guy like me" who likes a "girl like you". And is he just in it for the thrill, or is he in it for real...

Sorry, rambling again here...

Peace!

H (adore you for ever, Missy B!)

[Ogryn1313]

Very good words Hank. I think you hit the nail on the head for many men.

"My point is that you have to be a bit of a mind reader. Most people are so insecure especially when we get into taboos.

The poor man may be horrified by the prospect of all the words he'd be called by "friends" "

We have no choice but to confront taboos and any stigma thrown at us as a result. Society is a bitch. Take me for example. I view myself as a bisexual man. Some would say I'm a "queer" or "fag" because I am attracted to tgirls. I don't see this as making me homosexual. And, in all honestly, I am reluctant even labeling myself as bisexual. I am what I am, I like what I like, attracted to what I'm attracted to.

Yet, I am forced by society to live with things. In my life right now (real life not online) there is not one single person I can be completely honest with and open up to. I could never tell my best friends I'm "bi." I could never tell my grandparents I like tgirls.

Because I will surely be judged and labeled. And in a negative and harmful way. I live in a very rural place which shelters people. It's very religious here. There aren't any tgirls and very few homosexuals. It's pretty much old school America if you know what I mean.

Now, in another place perhaps I truly could be open and honest, free with my feelings and desires. Some areas are more accepting than others. And if you don't know anyone there even better. Here everyone knows me. And the rumors, gossip and name calling would make my life a hell.

So, if I found myself in a stroke of good fortune and had a chance to go on a date with a tgirl, no matter how much I may be interested in her and wish for us to get together, I'll always know in the back of my mind the ugliness my world would try to destroy something potentially good.

But I won't find myself in such a predicament since this place is devoid of such opportunity.

And, if my scenario happened one has to keep in mind willingness. I would rightly fear the harm others would heap on me and her as well. But if it really was a true potential relationship (I'm talking love here) perhaps a man might find the courage to stand up to their peers and society. Perhaps a man would gladly take on the condemnation for the sake of romance.

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by Ogryn1313

Perhaps a man would gladly take on the condemnation for the sake of romance.

I dig it! It's hard for the man as well as for the girl...

Well, I personally refused to make it into an issue and came out into the open the minute I established a relationship with Fey, my first trans-lover and now my best friend here. Nothing hidden at all. Surely, I live in a society where transsexuality is a bit more common than in the west, and I originally come from Denmark, one of the most sexually liberated places on earth.

None the less, I got a few friendly "comments" along the way, but nothing serious that I couldn't handle.

What ever the excuses, we have to look deeply into ourselves and determine whether a life in stealth is really worth it... think about it from the trans-woman's point of you. Hard for her to stealth unless she limits her life to her bedroom behind curtains and locked doors.

Personally, I don't give a flying fuck what religious right wingers may have to say about me and my choices - they yell through their hats anyway and have nothing solid to back it up - except the terror they so vigorously enjoy to put on "different thinkers".

Again, I'm sure it's easier in Jakarta and Copenhagen than in rural America where the mindset appears to be at least 50 years behind. (Why do you think that I so strongly propose Barack as your new president?). But at some point you will have to make a decision. Either to succumb to the narrow minds of your neighbours or to finally explode that damn closet and come out calmly and intelligently and then take the shit that follows.

In the end, who will thank you not to? Find the way that fits you - but let me tell you that I have also been closeted in other aspects of life... never again! The shit you get from others is peanuts compared to the shit you can yourself pile up in that closet...

Peace, my brother!

H

[Ogryn1313]

I couldn't agree more with you.

Aside from only one thing:

Obama.

I'm of the opinion social change must come slowly. It cannot be rushed because of loose ends and the impact it has on people. America is an extremely diverse nation. We have every type of person imaginable and ever difference imaginable found here. Perhaps more so than most nations. And it is always a battle. I believe in serving the whole, the greater good, thus the majority rules. Minorities are a secondary consideration. This does not mean I support oppressing them or denying them their fair treatment and rights. Only that any sweeping change in our society should be carefully thought out, all options and ramifications considered and then eased into. Rapid and sudden change creates unforeseen issues.

And this is my problem with the far left and Obama's of the world.

The Europeans can sit and smugly condemn my nation for being backwards and less socially progressive. Europeans are exceptionally arrogant. Yet they forget something important:

European nations are older than America. They have had the benefit of several hundred years of time to "perfect" themselves. America is a baby in comparison.

Because I believe such change requires time, logically it stands to reason America has not had the time to "perfect" itself as Europe. It's relative to how old a nation is. And the problem with the champions of this kind of change in America are immature so to speak. They often just see a problem and immediately think up a solution then they want to make this solution happen. They don't care if it steps on other groups or has effects on the equality of all in terms of rights and civil liberties. They are rash and foolhardy.

Perhaps they're hearts on in the right place. But they need to slow down and consider everything. I'll cite Obama wanting to withdraw the troops in Iraq quickly. He has failed to show he has fully thought out all considerations and possible consequences. Liberals are slightly better at this kind of change as they tend to be more logical and fair than the far left who pretty much are hot headed, overly passionate dreamers who just rush into things.

So, if you can look at a European nation and American nation in terms of a whole (let's say for the sake of it all of the nation is one person) and compare age and experience, then clearly America needs to do some growing up. But we all know the dangers of growing up too quickly.

This is how I disagree with you. Everything else you said I agree with entirely.

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by Ogryn1313

I couldn't agree more with you.

Aside from only one thing:

Obama...

Ogryn, I copied your reply to the Barack Obama thread and replied there if you dont mind!

H

[DL_NL]

Dating sucks, that's very true.

Still, don't give up!

[Ogryn1313]

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

Ogryn, I copied your reply to the Barack Obama thread and replied there if you dont mind!

H

I don't mind. I realized that I went off topic.

[Bionca]

I forget sometimes that is can be hard for guys to take the step from fantasy to reality with Trans*women. Perhaps that's why the LB scene is so popular with American and European tourists. Thailand is a place where it is more or less culturally "ok" to be with an LB. Although I read about a "walk of shame" when going from an LB bar to a hotel on sites devoted to Thai LadyBoys. I guess for some guys no amount of social acceptance or distance from the opinions of friends and family will be enough.

I forget that it can be hard for guys mostly because I went through it a long time ago. It was a matter of life and death for me, not a matter of getting a deep dark sexual desire explored. I lived through people reading me on the street, on the bus, at work when I first started. I got called everything, had my motivations questioned, my physical safety violated, insulted, harassed into changing addresses. Having passed through that, having distance and experience I suppose makes me sometimes blind to the flip side.

This doesn't let guys off the hook though. Not to get grumpy (I'm actually in a pretty swell mood today) but really, guys who date Trans*women don't really have much in the way of issues (compared to the TGs). I don't want to minimize the guy end of things, it's hard. I understand - Ive been through it (kinda). I just don't get the understanding comming the other direction very often. It's one thing to say "Yeah, it's hard to be a shemale" it's quite another to be on the bus going to work and have 5 guys in the back chanting "Tran-NEE, Tran-NEE, Tran-NEE" the whole ride.

Just a little observation. I do, however, want to encourage discussion of the issues guys face when dating or trying to date a Trans*Woman. Any and all information will ultimately help me and gals like me, as well as help other guys who are trying to find a TG.

[bobbsie]

Don't give up entirely Bionca, but i would defiantly just focus on yourself for a while. However ultimately we are social creatures, we want to be in fulfilling relationships and share our lives with others! However the pursuit of love can make one very miserable too. Very, very miserable.. lol! Sometimes you just need a break or you will become jaded.

To be honest I don't entirely understand why you have been treated so poorly.. Although could you be any more out of the main stream? Sci-fi fan and social worker??! :o) On the periphery much? On a serious note, I'm surprised you haven't meet someone while studying social work or networking in the field. Social workers are generally a pretty undiscriminating, straightforward and liberal bunch of people often, with like minded friends. Have you asked if someone can introduce you to a nice guy?

[Bionca]

Originally Posted by bobbsie

Don't give up entirely Bionca, but i would defiantly just focus on yourself for a while. However ultimately we are social creatures, we want to be in fulfilling relationships and share our lives with others! However the pursuit of love can make one very miserable too. Very, very miserable.. lol! Sometimes you just need a break or you will become jaded.

To be honest I don't entirely understand why you have been treated so poorly.. Although could you be any more out of the main stream? Sci-fi fan and social worker??! :o) On the periphery much? On a serious note, I'm surprised you haven't meet someone while studying social work or networking in the field. Social workers are generally a pretty undiscriminating, straightforward and liberal bunch of people often, with like minded friends. Have you asked if someone can introduce you to a nice guy?

Well, I was in a relationship all through college and after graduation for a couple years (7 total). So I wasn't networking in that way when I was hanging out with social workers. I'm also not currently working in that field. I learned a long long time ago to never ever let my friends introduce to to someone or fix me up. They are profoundly bad at it. Honestly, I think the jaded is already happening, I think I know now why so many Transwomen in online chats/dating sites are so harsh with the guys.

Guys will promise the sun the moon and the stars to get in my panties. All I expect is some respect and dinner. I figure celestal gifts can come later. It amazes me how often guys fail to get over step #1. So many fail at step #1, I don't even think there isa step #2. Pretty pathetic really that a guy is special and a quality guy just for not chickening out on your first date and takes you out in public...

may have something to do with why Transwomen are 12x more likely to be killed or beaten by an intimate partner than genetic women.

[bobbsie]

I'm the first to admit the male species is a suspect creature at times, ok a significant amount of the time, but there are good guys out there. I still think it is about finding people with shared values. Maybe join a social action group or something? Worse case scenario you meet some nice people! :o) Although i can't talk, i keep meaning to do something like that, but uni seems to eat up a lot of my spare time. Excuses, excuses! Yeah, i am a hypocrite..

Meanwhile cats are great, that is when they're not demanding food, bringing home dead mice, meowing, scratching up the furniture, demanding food.. hmm.. have you thought about a dog?

12 times more likely?! That is scary when you think how high the family violence rates are in general