I give up

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by Bionca

It's petty common for guys to chicken out and suddenly suggest that we get some pizza delivered on the off chance that someone somewhere might figure something out.

So it would seem :-( The interesting thing is, though, that aforesaid lady actually is a bit scared to show up in public (how totally UN-asian...), so I had to promise her that we start it at home in my place... I'll do the cooking, make my princess relax and then take her out on date number 2, hand-in-hand to the places she dares not go alone or were never invited to...

As my father wisely used to say... why make it difficult, when with a wee bit of extra effort we can make it bloody impossible...

Oh well... trust me, I'll show her a grand time, my little darling!

H

[ila]

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

As my father wisely used to say... why make it difficult, when with a wee bit of extra effort we can make it bloody impossible...
H

A wise man indeed Hank and a saying that is so very true.

[Mel Asher]

Bionca

Dates you desperately want are like trout in a stream - the more you reach out to grasp them the more they seem to slip away.

Others have already given you much advice to take heart from :

• Don't ever give up hope
• Only hunt with a girlfriend
• Let Love take its time to settle on you

And that remark about the frantic pheromone is closer to the mark than you think.

I am lucky in that I have found ( or been found by ) the love of my life, but it hasn't always been so. I feel very much for you, and hope the warmth of friendship all around you will sustain you until you do.

[hankhavelock]

Bionca, I read elsewhere that there is this guy in your office who keeps bringing you coffee and sending you shy smiles and from what you wrote I presume that he is not aware of your "challenging" gender reality?

Maybe you should give the guy a chance. And are you at all sure that he is not aware of your "true identity"?

I tried to envision myself in his place - and I think I'd do the same as he. Hinting to you that I like you and find you attractive. I wouldn't necessarily walk up to you and say: "ok, baby, I know your secret and I still love you..." Or would I? I'm in doubt, really. It would depend on the circumstances.

If you find him sweet and attractive, then why not hint back at him? There must be some way you can get the message across without the need for any one to loose face here. Also, if it's not a secret, I personally find it hard to believe that he doesn't already know. I don't find it so hard to believe that he's "a guy like me" who happens to like "a girl like you". And for reasons that go beyond a quick lay in the hay.

I don't know, obviously, but it sounds to me that the more discreet guy could be a better bet...

Give it a thought...

H

[hankhavelock]

Hmmm... let me just follow up a little bit on my posting above.

Had it been today, I would probably find a discreet yet clear way to send you the message that not only was I interested but I also knew your gender "secret" - that is if I knew. One "safe" way would be over the lunch table in the office to bring up a topic related to transgender issues and like that sending you the message in public yet in general... yet very very personal. I would then expect you to pick up the message without revealing yourself.

Had it been three years ago I would have been a bit more fumbling, I think, and a bit more in doubt as to how I approach you - I would definitely have used the coffee-thing as well and given you hints that I'm interested in you. But I'd probably have been a bit more confused about the gender-thing and how to get my message through to you. But then again, I'm sure I'd have found a subtle way.

My point is that you have to be a bit of a mind reader. Most people are so insecure especially when we get into taboos.

The poor man may be horrified by the prospect of all the words he'd be called by "friends" - and then again he may not... you have to figure out a way to detect the signals, Bionca. It's much easier for me, because I know if she is transsexual, and then I can approach her honestly and openly. It's more tricky for you as you cannot immediately judge if he's a sincere "guy like me" who likes a "girl like you". And is he just in it for the thrill, or is he in it for real...

Sorry, rambling again here...

Peace!

H (adore you for ever, Missy B!)

[Ogryn1313]

Very good words Hank. I think you hit the nail on the head for many men.

"My point is that you have to be a bit of a mind reader. Most people are so insecure especially when we get into taboos.

The poor man may be horrified by the prospect of all the words he'd be called by "friends" "

We have no choice but to confront taboos and any stigma thrown at us as a result. Society is a bitch. Take me for example. I view myself as a bisexual man. Some would say I'm a "queer" or "fag" because I am attracted to tgirls. I don't see this as making me homosexual. And, in all honestly, I am reluctant even labeling myself as bisexual. I am what I am, I like what I like, attracted to what I'm attracted to.

Yet, I am forced by society to live with things. In my life right now (real life not online) there is not one single person I can be completely honest with and open up to. I could never tell my best friends I'm "bi." I could never tell my grandparents I like tgirls.

Because I will surely be judged and labeled. And in a negative and harmful way. I live in a very rural place which shelters people. It's very religious here. There aren't any tgirls and very few homosexuals. It's pretty much old school America if you know what I mean.

Now, in another place perhaps I truly could be open and honest, free with my feelings and desires. Some areas are more accepting than others. And if you don't know anyone there even better. Here everyone knows me. And the rumors, gossip and name calling would make my life a hell.

So, if I found myself in a stroke of good fortune and had a chance to go on a date with a tgirl, no matter how much I may be interested in her and wish for us to get together, I'll always know in the back of my mind the ugliness my world would try to destroy something potentially good.

But I won't find myself in such a predicament since this place is devoid of such opportunity.

And, if my scenario happened one has to keep in mind willingness. I would rightly fear the harm others would heap on me and her as well. But if it really was a true potential relationship (I'm talking love here) perhaps a man might find the courage to stand up to their peers and society. Perhaps a man would gladly take on the condemnation for the sake of romance.

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by Ogryn1313

Perhaps a man would gladly take on the condemnation for the sake of romance.

I dig it! It's hard for the man as well as for the girl...

Well, I personally refused to make it into an issue and came out into the open the minute I established a relationship with Fey, my first trans-lover and now my best friend here. Nothing hidden at all. Surely, I live in a society where transsexuality is a bit more common than in the west, and I originally come from Denmark, one of the most sexually liberated places on earth.

None the less, I got a few friendly "comments" along the way, but nothing serious that I couldn't handle.

What ever the excuses, we have to look deeply into ourselves and determine whether a life in stealth is really worth it... think about it from the trans-woman's point of you. Hard for her to stealth unless she limits her life to her bedroom behind curtains and locked doors.

Personally, I don't give a flying fuck what religious right wingers may have to say about me and my choices - they yell through their hats anyway and have nothing solid to back it up - except the terror they so vigorously enjoy to put on "different thinkers".

Again, I'm sure it's easier in Jakarta and Copenhagen than in rural America where the mindset appears to be at least 50 years behind. (Why do you think that I so strongly propose Barack as your new president?). But at some point you will have to make a decision. Either to succumb to the narrow minds of your neighbours or to finally explode that damn closet and come out calmly and intelligently and then take the shit that follows.

In the end, who will thank you not to? Find the way that fits you - but let me tell you that I have also been closeted in other aspects of life... never again! The shit you get from others is peanuts compared to the shit you can yourself pile up in that closet...

Peace, my brother!

H