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#51
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I prefer to think that English, French & German developed independantly from Latin & Indo-European family of languages. In fact, French sounds very much like a twisted dialect of English. (no pun) Just my observation.
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#52
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If one traces back the Indo European languages one will find that their common root is Sanskrit. |
#53
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Sanskrit
Sanskrit, as we know it, is not the original Vedic language.
SansKrit as the name signifies is a reformed language. Samskara=to reform or clean up. The Old Vedic language is Deva-Bhasha the language of the Gods (Deva). Panini, a scholar cleaned up the very complex grammer and simplified it into Sanskrit. SansKrit as a language is very scientific, its almost mathematical! If you mixup randomly all the words in a Sanskrit sentence, it will still mean the same! The phonetic speech sounds in Sanskrit also rise and fall in perfect musical rhythm, accurate to the minutest degree. All verses constructed in Sanskrit are bound in a particular metre and a rhythm by the author. This is called Chhanda. So, Veda was not spoken like random speech. Rather, it was sung! People communicated in songs, with melody!
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#54
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#55
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My mother language is Turkish ...
I can speak English but not very good when i speak, i write it better. Türkiye den selamlar herkese !!! Hepinize saygılar, sevgiler ... Ila, nasılsın ? Türkçe konuşmak istermisin ? |
#56
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I'm afraid I don't speak any Turkish at all. I did visit your wonderful country many years ago, but I don't remember any of the words and phrases that I picked up. One of the things I do remember is all the people being so friendly towards visitors (whether in the big cities or the small towns that I was in). Everyone that I met there wanted to speak English though, which made it harder to pick up any of the language. Unfortunately my stay wasn't long enough, in any one place, to have time to make friends and really learn the language. |
#57
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Apologies for the catty remarks !
Sesame - I should have know I wouldn't get away with it ! Of course the beautiful Clouded Leopard does not belong to the Panther squad, but there again neither does it belong to the Felids. The skull structure apparently has some unique features with disqualify it from both groups. So there it is all on its own as is the Cheetah. I guess from the snow, the third of your pics is one of Uncia uncia, although I would have expected lighter colouration. Got fantastic paws too - just like camels. Pics 1 and 2 are most certainly Neofelis. Beautiful animals, all three ! Admiration and Respect. So, my apologies for trying to pull that one on you !
Now back to the subject of this thread - ila, I promise I will control my urge to enthuse any more about wildlife on this thread. You are quite right. Basque is linguistically unique and quite separate from the Indo-European languages. It is certainly no dialect, and the jury is still out as to whether the Basques represent the original indigenous people inhabiting the Pyreneean ( is that the right spelling ? It looks kinda funny ) regions. Mea culpa, ila, it was sloppy word usage on my part. Hells Teeth, that's two apologies in one post ! I must be really slipping ! I have to say there seem to be some excellent porn sites of ' Latin ' origin which have been thoroughly trawled for Shemales and Trannies. ( How many times have we come across pictures of Bianca in our Web Travels ? ) By the same token there must be not a few Spanish-speaking and Portuguese-speaking Tgirls and Shemales who would, given the opportunity, take part in this Forum, but who feel excluded by language. Can this be redressed somehow ? Although I have enjoyed reading the discussion on the various origins of European languages, I think reaching out to others whose mother-tongue is not English should be given some further consideration. |
#58
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Hepinize saygılar, sevgiler ... With my respects and loves Ila, nasılsın ? Türkçe konuşmak istermisin ? Ila, How are you? Would u like to talk Turkish language ? Merhaba Ila, Hangi şehir/şehirleri ziyaret ettin Türkiyede ? Sana Antalya yı (Türkiyenin güneyi) öneririm bu aylarda tatil için. Çok güzel deniz, kumsal,güneş,sağlam gece hayatı,çok iyi ve lüks oteller ve tatil köyleri (iyi fiyata) ve etrafta birçok travestilerle . Rehberin olabilirim eğer istersen. Şimdi yurt dışındayım ama ağustos ayında ülkeme gidicem ve ilk olarak Ankara sonra İstanbul ve tatil için Antalya/Kemer veya Antalya/Alanya. English: Hi Ila, Which city/cities you have visited in Turkiye ? And i suggest u, Antalya (south of Turkiye) in these months for holiday. Wonderful sea, beaches, sun,great nightlife, very nice and luxury hotels and resorts (with good prices) and many ladyboys around there . i can be your guide if u want. I am in abroad now but i will go to my country in August and i will go to Ankara first and then Istanbul and go to holiday in Antalya/Kemer or Antalya/Alanya. |
#59
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Mel Asher, please dont apologise like that. We are all friends here. Also, technically speaking, Binomial Nomenclature is a Language of Science!
Relax, mano! Ila, welcome back from your Piranha hunting trip. Damn! You ate all of them? Alone? Dont forget, you promised me a good story, on your return! I am very interested in Old Saxon Roots from which many modern English words have been born. I was wondering if you could provide me with some insight. And perhaps a line or two about their culture? I recently found out that many of the 26 English alphabets didnt exist in the middle ages. They have been fashioned much later.
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#60
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So what happened to the Celtic Tribes in Britain ?
It is well documented that invaders eventually incorporate the language of those that they invade, that is, if they settle the land. This was most certainly the case of the Romans who adopted much of the language of the Latins whom they subsumed. To a lesser degree, Latin is littered with Etruscan words incorporated into the language of Rome, although the Etruscans as a people survived much much longer than the Latins. In the case of English, it is true that the ' Low German ' variant of the German Tribes used widely by the Angles, and then later that of the Saxons were combined in the development of AngloSaxon, but the language structure that developed was not Germanic. Instead it was Celtic, taken from the peoples that the Angles and Saxons displaced. Cornish is a somewhat shaky survivor from this. And then ? Norman French. Viking settlers in Brittany with their Scandinavian language. They enriched the emerging English Language as conquerors of an already polyglottal people. And what a debt the English Language owes to the Christial Church and its scholarship. Latin and Greek Classics as standard education for the nobility, and later Scientific Nomenclature - a positive harvest of Greek and Latin, and a linguist's delight.
And so the process goes on with Punjabi, Hindi and French words ( not to mention Dutch and German ) being added to the list all the time. Ain't Babel worderful ? ! |
#61
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Thank you Mel Asher, or just Mel!
That was such a rich article! Something more on old Saxon, with examples would be delicious. Quote:
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#62
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#63
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When I went to Turkey it was as part of a tour, which was the easiest way at the time to visit. I was in Instanbul, Ankara, and Bursa with a few stops at small towns in between. I had one memorable trip on a ferry from the Black Sea back to Instanbul in which I had an opportunity to talk to some of the people. Unfortunately I was quite drunk from drinking vodka, on the ferry, and so although I was relaxed and had a great time I wasn't able to retain too much Turkish. I'm afraid I won't be able to make it to Turkey this year. My holidays are over soon and then it's back to work for me. |
#64
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Your life is unique, cherish it. Do something with your life. |
#65
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Cool thread
I speak Dutch, English and German. And some French, but French is very difficult for me to learn. Those verbs make me go nuts like the verb 'to be': je suis tu es ille est nous sommes vous etes or something like that. And someone said that English has a different langauge structure, namely Celtic. I think that might be true, I really think that English stands somewhat apart from the other germanic languages. For example, when I was little I didnt understand anything when I heard someone speak English but when I was on vacation to Sweden and Norway I could understand what people were talking about after some time while never having heard those languages before. |
#66
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True. Those are the languages I'm -mostly- fluent in, and I can understand some Spanish, Catalán, Italian and Frisian.
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RIP Anna Alexandre, 1980 - 2007
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#67
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Being Canadian, I was required to learn French in junior school, I've since forgotton all of it. I learned a little German in highschool, but not enough that I consider myself fluent.
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#68
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konichiwa genki desu?
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"I had always heard your entire life flashes in front of your eyes the second before you die. First of all, that one second isn't a second at all, it stretches on forever, like an ocean of time..." |
#69
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ok but can u guess this
volim da me jebe trandza |
#70
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I'm not a 'Sax' maniac - honest !
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AngloSaxon, otherwise called Old English, is one of those blends from the Indo-European ' Germanic ' languages which was widely spoken in England prior to and contemporary with the Norman Invasion. Not to be confused with Middle English which was a much more streamlined version eliminating a lot of the gender inflections and rigid inflections occurring in the verb endings. Middle English was therefore much nearer English as we know it today and was the lingo that Chaucer used in his Cantebury Tales ( Fairly raunchy in parts - viz the Miller's Tales etc. ) As requested a sample with rough translation. ( I would add that although I can read some Middle English, Old English is beyond my scholarship - so I asked a friend for this sample ! hlude bi hearpan hleoŝor swinsade, ŝonne monige men, modum wlonce, wordum sprecan, ŝa ŝe wel cuŝan, ŝĉt hi nĉfre song sellan ne hyrdon. Then many men with noble hearts, who understood these things, openly said that they had never heard a better song. Good poetic stuff, but my learning has taken me elsewhere ! |
#71
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They don't come any wilder than me
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#72
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I'm from Barcelona, so my two official languages are spanish and catalan (and english, but it's not an official state language). Catalan is the language spoke in Catalonia, and it's a really refined one.
Salut i força al canut, gent!! |
#73
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#74
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Courtesy of my son-in-law ( a Hindu Doctor ) : Bungalow = Low Dwelling in Bengali / Hindi Pukka = Thorough ( Hindi ) Pundit ( Hindi ) Guru ( Hindi / Punjabi ) And Dutch : A Boom ( on a boat ), Trek = A trail, Landscape ( means the same, but spelling slightly different ), and Mannequin ( meaning Little Man Viz - Le Mannequin qui pisse ) French - Loads of them - you can probably think of these : Bayoney, Rifle, Unique, Crayon, Sachet German - some obvious ones : Kindergarten, Flak, Rucksack ( a mild insult in Dutch ) Snorkel etc. Enjoy |
#75
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#76
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A question for you nmlss, and I'm not being facetious here. Is Catalan considered a language on its own or is it considered a dialect of Spanish? If it is a dialect how does it differ from Spanish? If it is a language to what group of languages does it belong?
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#77
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Catalan is a real language. In Spain there are nationalism from Catalonia (which demands independence) and the Spanish Nationalism (whick says "Spain is one, not fiftyone). The spanish nationalism came from Franco's dictatorship, and the catalan one from the Civil War's anarchists. This is where this "Language war" started. If you ask a reactionary spanish (which doesn't speaks catalan) he'll say "It's a dialect!!! In Spain we only talk one language, not fiftyone!!!" If you ask a catalan (a person who SPEAKS catalan) or a spaniard with common sense they'll say "Of course it's a language" I'll sum up!!: Catalan IS a LANGUAGE, and it's spoken on the east cost of Spain, the zone of "Catalan Countries" (Catalunya, València (well, they speak Valencian, but it comes from the same root as catalan) and Illes Balears). In these autonom communities it's the official language along with spanish, but in Andorra, the country in the Pyrinees, it's the oficial one. Well, hope you can understand my words, I'm talking my third language, so probably I made lots of errors, hehe. |
#78
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Indian words in English
Well, Pundit and Guru are actually Sanskrit words, but I guess they got into the English vocabulary from the Hindi dialect during the British Raj in India.
Other words are: avatar: meaning the incarnations of God on earth. karma: means both good and bad actions in Sanskrit; but in the West, only the bad deeds are taken for the word Karma. Guru: means spiritual master, teacher, initiator. Gu= darkness, Ru= Light. He who takes us from darkness to light is the Guru. Desi: local, grown in the state. Charisma: Urdu word. Meaning~ Miracle. Baba: father, papa, dad. Sometimes refers to a holyman. Yoga: Sanskrit. Means connection, way. Commonly people think of Hatha-Yoga postures by this word, but it really refers to the connection between man and God. Lemon: "Nimbu" Early Sanskrit means Lemon and Lime. People of Bengal still call it Lebu. L substitutes N. Arabic = Limun, Persian=Limou. Mantra: powerful words for chanting. Sanskrit. Mana+Tra. Mana=mind, Tra=trana=to free. The thought of which frees our mind. Mind: Mana, Manas. Sanskrit. Nirvana: Sanskrit. Ultimate Freedom. Extinguish. Three: Vedic Sanskrit. Tri. Means 3. Like Gayatri, Triveda, trishula. Diva: Divya, Sanskrit. Meaning of Godly source. Deva= god, Devi =goddess. Navy: Nauka, Nau. Ancient Indian*. Sanskrit. means a boat. That which floats in water. Or Navik= an experienced sailor or navigator.
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#79
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#80
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Charisma come from the greek χάρισμα meaning gift or divine favour. Navy comes from the French navigium meaning "fleet of ships", which in turn comes from the latin navis, "ship" and agere, "to drive" Three The prefix "tri-" supposedly comes form Sanskrit, but three itself comes from Latin "tres" Mind comes from old English ġemynd, which comes from proto-germanic gamunđiz. which if it shares any common origin with the sanscrit word mana is only through the hypothetical proto-indo-european language, which of course means it pre-dates both languages and so one can not be said to be derived of the other. |
#81
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Sanskrit Origin
Early form of Sanskrit or Vedic language is from 2000 BC or earlier.
Early Greek language begins at 750 BC. Ancient Roman or Latin begins from 100 Bc to 100 AD. The Nava, Nau, Nauka word meaning boat or navigation is from Rigveda. As it sounds similar and means the same in all other relatively younger languages, it must be the origin of the word. Same goes for "mind". Same reason goes for Two, three... Ten. I am not sure of the word one. Sanskrit is Ek. Zero and decimal system comes from Sanskrit again. Second as a unit of time comes from the Sanskrit word, Ksana or Ksanda.
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Your life is unique, cherish it. Do something with your life. |
#82
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i'm so lost......
fi |
#83
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Being first does not make it the origin, isolation of the Indian subcontinent from Europe prior to 2000BC makes it pretty unlikely that Ancient greek words could have originated from Sanskrit, a common origin is not the same thing as a derivation, does it make sense to you that a set of people would divide onto different continents, develop thier own languages, then one set of people develops a new language based on the other set whom they have no recorded direct contact with at all? Or is it more sensible that a set of people had one language, they divided and they developed languages based on that one language independently? The original language was proto-indo-european. oh and also, in your list baba is not an English word. |
#84
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I can only speak English and just enough German that if I was magically whisked to Germany I could get by and still look a fool to the Germans.
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#85
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Second Ksana as the oldest unit of Time
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French language is much younger compared to Ancient Vedic Sanskrit. Ancient Vedic Sanskrit dates from 4000BC to 2000BC. Let Somebody challange me on that. French: French language came to being from vernacular Latin used in the Roman Empire. The ancient French were actually Celtic Gauls before Caeser invaded them in 52 BC. Old French started around the 1st century BC to the 14th century AD. Middle French 14th to 16th century. Modern French 16th to Now. Old French was imbibed with many Germanic words when the Roman empire was crumbling under attack from the invaders. ( Hey Anna, I think Darth Vader came from Invader!! It has nothing to do with French though.) If a word is used in different languages, implying the same meaning, then, it must come from the most ancient language. Thats how Linguists determine the origin of words. Some arrogant linguists even go to the length of determining the age of a civilization by sheer guesswork! But I am not doing that, I am providing solid proof. Do you want the exact verses of Rigveda? I can get them too.
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#86
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You assume that the oldest recorded language is the oldest there is. Do you think people were just silent before 2000BC? |
#87
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Previously I had posted that European languages derived from Sanskrit. I based this comment on what I remembered from English classes during my high school years. I have recently gone back through some of my reference books to do some research on the origin of English.
European languages did not have Sanskrit as a common source. Rather Sanskrit and the European languages have a common source known as "Indo-European". There is some controversy over where the original speakers of "Indo-European" lived. Some have argued that the original speakers were the Kurgan culture of the Russian steppes. Others have suggested the origin is from a farming culture of the Danube valley. The currently accepted theory is that the language comes from a people who lived in a cold, northern climate. The dates of origin vary from 6000 BC to 4500 BC. Words for snow, beech, bee, and wolf had an important role in this language. Also the prehistoric "Indo-European" language didn't have a word for sea. For these reasons scholars have placed the origin of the "Indo-Europeans" in northern Central Europe. Source The Story of English Robert McCrum, William Cran, and Robert MacNeil Viking Penguin Incorporated First American edition published 1986 Pages 51 - 53 |
#88
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Vedic Origin
Yeah Ila, all these Indo-European Ethnic groups making epic journeys across Continents... ... is based on the Aryan Invasion theory and the scholarly fascination for Mesopotemia. Perhaps there was an ancient group, but as science is cleaning up the colonial mist, another scenario is coming to view. There was no Aryan Invasion ever. The British colonials spread the lie to rule and subjugate. The German Nazis spread the rumours to tickle it's citizens and motivate them under one banner by awakening German Pride and the dream of a superior race. This was the tendency of european scholars to show the civilization of Mesopotemia as the point of origin of the Indo-Aryans, Persian-Aryans or Indus Valley civilization. Everything begins in Mesopotemia and ends up in far-off places around the world! Fancy wishful reverse calculators! Is that research to ascertain truth or bending truth to one's prejudice?
Recent satellite images show that the early Vedic people were inhabitants of the now extinct Saraswati basin. You will note that the Vedic civilization shifted from the banks of Saraswati to Sindhu to Ganges. This whole process took thousands of years to unfold. No foreign rivers or steppes or animals have ever been mentioned in all the four vedas. The whole migration theory through Ural and Siberian landscape was just guesswork of idle scholars. And the fixing of Vedic age to 1200 BC by the Germans was the stupidest guesswork of the century. Prof. Max Muller divided the Vedic literature into four periods Chhanda (rhythm), Mantra, Brahmana and Sutra. Since Vedas came before Buddhism ( which starts at 400 BC), the learned scholar just imagines using his tiny brain. And he then ascribes 200 years to each of those 4 imaginery periods and declares the earliest Vedic date as 400+(200x4)=1200BC!! Isn't that funny? Then a Chinese scholar Dr. Haug comes along and calculates by assigning each period to be 500 years, because Chinese literature changed in that pace. So he fixed the earliest Veda (Rigveda) at 400+(500x4)= 2400 BC. But Tilak ended all this fancy guessing game by providing astronomical data and pinpointing the Vedic age by science. Through thousands of years, constellations in the sky change position as they rise and set. The stars mentioned in the vedic rituals provide ample proof of that. He fixed the first vedic hymns to be created before 4000 BC.
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Your life is unique, cherish it. Do something with your life. |
#89
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My friends, I assure you, I cannot compete on grounds intellect in this subject. I know next to NOTHING about linguistic development, and won't pretend to be an expert in the subject. But of what I have read, Sanskrit seems to be one of the oldest of languages, and a variety of sources cite that these tales/language date back to around 4,000 BCE. Whether it is in fact the OLDEST or not, I don't know, but I suspect the origins of recorded language probably originated not TOO far from the Middle East region/India.
As an aside that is completely irrelevant to this discussion...Is Sanskrit difficult to learn? It is a language that I feel that I should learn, but I am SO not motivated when it comes to foreign languages (particularly ones of antiquity), that I don't even know when to start. There is no such thing as "a class" about Sanskrit where I am from, so where would an initiate start? |
#90
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I rather doubt there were any epic journeys across continents, but rather the slow dispersion of people across continents down through the ages. Humans did not spontaneously spring up all over the planet. There was a gradual migration from one area to another.
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#91
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Ila, wasn't this how the Native American's entered this continent, an epic migration from one to the other via land bridge? Or am I mistaken?
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#92
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Wait a second, you are the one expecting us to believe that Sanskit speakers travelled all the way to Europe and persuaded the locals to change their words for boat, two and mind. You are just making fancy wishful reverse calculations where everything starts in India and ends up in different parts of the world.
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#93
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The alternate to the migration theory is from the Natives themselves which say that they were always in the Americas and did not migrate here from anywhere else. |
#94
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Civilizations come and go
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Other Cultures: The Red-Indians held sway in America. Europeans only came later. The Hanging Garden was created in Babylon and the Great wall in China. Democracy, sculpture, Logical-Debates and a lot of other things began in Greece. Fire and gunpowder was invented in China. The Nalanda University (427-1197AD) in Pala era was one of the oldest centres of learning in the world! The Mayan culture of Mexico, the Aztecs and Incas were most fascinating (except the blood thirst). Ah, and dont forget Yoga and Ayurveda, they are also from India. Buddhism originated in India. The early Brahamanic culture in India was great (but later caste systems were really bad). The European Clergy culture was also magnificent, except the bigotry. Christianity came from Israel, the modern Christians tend to forget that. The Japanese warlike Samurai culture was also a masterpiece. Times change, nothing remains the same. The powerful may become ignorant, the rich can become paupers. Civilizations crumble and become extinct, new ones grow up. So, dont be prejudiced, give due credit, Annie.
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Your life is unique, cherish it. Do something with your life. Last edited by sesame; 08-30-2008 at 08:19 PM. |
#95
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The alternate theory is also quite likely. They may well have always been here. |
#96
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I saw a documentary which showed the migration of early American Indians during an Ice Age. Their hunting grounds were shrinking so they were forced to migrate. In the beginning, they were like Eskimos and primarily lived on seals and marine fish. They travelled in kayaks made of stretched leather and used animal bones and flint stones for weapons. I am very much fascinated by the ancient wisdom and hunting skills of the Red Indians and Aztecs.
Castaneda states that the stone artifacts found in some of the Mexican sites are 10,000 years old. It may be true.
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Your life is unique, cherish it. Do something with your life. Last edited by sesame; 08-30-2008 at 08:35 PM. |
#97
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WTF? that makes no sense. Names for objects are not ideas. I think you fail to comprehend reality.
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#98
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Second as a unit of time is an idea, so is zero and the decimal system.
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Your life is unique, cherish it. Do something with your life. |
#99
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You know there are stone artifacts found in Africa, Europe and Asia that pre date homo sapiens. Stone artifacts in Ethiopia date from 2.6 million years ago.
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#100
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And why would the greeks use the vedic names for numbers but not the decimal system itself? Major logic failure! Think before you speak boyo. |
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