Languages

[Mel Asher]

It is well documented that invaders eventually incorporate the language of those that they invade, that is, if they settle the land. This was most certainly the case of the Romans who adopted much of the language of the Latins whom they subsumed. To a lesser degree, Latin is littered with Etruscan words incorporated into the language of Rome, although the Etruscans as a people survived much much longer than the Latins. In the case of English, it is true that the ' Low German ' variant of the German Tribes used widely by the Angles, and then later that of the Saxons were combined in the development of AngloSaxon, but the language structure that developed was not Germanic. Instead it was Celtic, taken from the peoples that the Angles and Saxons displaced. Cornish is a somewhat shaky survivor from this. And then ? Norman French. Viking settlers in Brittany with their Scandinavian language. They enriched the emerging English Language as conquerors of an already polyglottal people. And what a debt the English Language owes to the Christial Church and its scholarship. Latin and Greek Classics as standard education for the nobility, and later Scientific Nomenclature - a positive harvest of Greek and Latin, and a linguist's delight.
And so the process goes on with Punjabi, Hindi and French words ( not to mention Dutch and German ) being added to the list all the time.

Ain't Babel worderful ? !

[sesame]

Thank you Mel Asher, or just Mel!
That was such a rich article! Something more on old Saxon, with examples would be delicious.

And so the process goes on with Punjabi, Hindi and French words ( not to mention Dutch and German ) being added to the list all the time.

Make your point with hard evidence please.

[Mel Asher]

Originally Posted by sesame

Thank you Mel Asher, or just Mel!
That was such a rich article! Something more on old Saxon, with examples would be delicious.

Make your point with hard evidence please.

OK, Sesame - just for you. I'll come back to the Celtic question later.

AngloSaxon, otherwise called Old English, is one of those blends from the Indo-European ' Germanic ' languages which was widely spoken in England prior to and contemporary with the Norman Invasion. Not to be confused with Middle English which was a much more streamlined version eliminating a lot of the gender inflections and rigid inflections occurring in the verb endings. Middle English was therefore much nearer English as we know it today and was the lingo that Chaucer used in his Cantebury Tales ( Fairly raunchy in parts - viz the Miller's Tales etc. )

As requested a sample with rough translation. ( I would add that although I can read some Middle English, Old English is beyond my scholarship - so I asked a friend for this sample !

hlude bi hearpan hleoþor swinsade, þonne monige men, modum wlonce,
wordum sprecan, þa þe wel cuþan, þæt hi næfre song sellan ne hyrdon.

Then many men with noble hearts, who understood these things,
openly said that they had never heard a better song.

Good poetic stuff, but my learning has taken me elsewhere
!

[Mel Asher]

Originally Posted by Mel Asher

It is well documented that invaders eventually incorporate the language of those that they invade, that is, if they settle the land. This was most certainly the case of the Romans who adopted much of the language of the Latins whom they subsumed. To a lesser degree, Latin is littered with Etruscan words incorporated into the language of Rome, although the Etruscans as a people survived much much longer than the Latins. In the case of English, it is true that the ' Low German ' variant of the German Tribes used widely by the Angles, and then later that of the Saxons were combined in the development of AngloSaxon, but the language structure that developed was not Germanic. Instead it was Celtic, taken from the peoples that the Angles and Saxons displaced. Cornish is a somewhat shaky survivor from this. And then ? Norman French. Viking settlers in Brittany with their Scandinavian language. They enriched the emerging English Language as conquerors of an already polyglottal people. And what a debt the English Language owes to the Christial Church and its scholarship. Latin and Greek Classics as standard education for the nobility, and later Scientific Nomenclature - a positive harvest of Greek and Latin, and a linguist's delight.
And so the process goes on with Punjabi, Hindi and French words ( not to mention Dutch and German ) being added to the list all the time.

Ain't Babel worderful ? !

Another end left loose after my unenjoyable fun and games on the motorway -

Courtesy of my son-in-law ( a Hindu Doctor ) :
Bungalow = Low Dwelling in Bengali / Hindi
Pukka = Thorough ( Hindi )
Pundit ( Hindi )
Guru ( Hindi / Punjabi )

And Dutch : A Boom ( on a boat ), Trek = A trail, Landscape ( means the same, but spelling slightly different ), and Mannequin ( meaning Little Man Viz - Le Mannequin qui pisse )

French - Loads of them - you can probably think of these : Bayoney, Rifle, Unique, Crayon, Sachet

German - some obvious ones : Kindergarten, Flak, Rucksack ( a mild insult in Dutch ) Snorkel etc.

Enjoy

[sesame]

Well, Pundit and Guru are actually Sanskrit words, but I guess they got into the English vocabulary from the Hindi dialect during the British Raj in India.
Other words are:

avatar: meaning the incarnations of God on earth.
karma: means both good and bad actions in Sanskrit; but in the West, only the bad deeds are taken for the word Karma.
Guru: means spiritual master, teacher, initiator. Gu= darkness, Ru= Light. He who takes us from darkness to light is the Guru.
Desi: local, grown in the state.
Charisma: Urdu word. Meaning~ Miracle.
Baba: father, papa, dad. Sometimes refers to a holyman.
Yoga: Sanskrit. Means connection, way. Commonly people think of Hatha-Yoga postures by this word, but it really refers to the connection between man and God.
Lemon: "Nimbu" Early Sanskrit means Lemon and Lime. People of Bengal still call it Lebu. L substitutes N. Arabic = Limun, Persian=Limou.
Mantra: powerful words for chanting. Sanskrit. Mana+Tra. Mana=mind, Tra=trana=to free. The thought of which frees our mind.
Mind: Mana, Manas. Sanskrit.
Nirvana: Sanskrit. Ultimate Freedom. Extinguish.
Three: Vedic Sanskrit. Tri. Means 3. Like Gayatri, Triveda, trishula.
Diva: Divya, Sanskrit. Meaning of Godly source. Deva= god, Devi =goddess.
Navy: Nauka, Nau. Ancient Indian*. Sanskrit. means a boat. That which floats in water. Or Navik= an experienced sailor or navigator.

[SluttyShemaleAnna]

Originally Posted by sesame

Well, Pundit and Guru are actually Sanskrit words, but I guess they got into the English vocabulary from the Hindi dialect during the British Raj in India.
Other words are:

avatar: meaning the incarnations of God on earth.
karma: means both good and bad actions in Sanskrit; but in the West, only the bad deeds are taken for the word Karma.
Guru: means spiritual master, teacher, initiator. Gu= darkness, Ru= Light. He who takes us from darkness to light is the Guru.
Desi: local, grown in the state.
Charisma: Urdu word. Meaning~ Miracle.
Baba: father, papa, dad. Sometimes refers to a holyman.
Yoga: Sanskrit. Means connection, way. Commonly people think of Hatha-Yoga postures by this word, but it really refers to the connection between man and God.
Lemon: "Nimbu" Early Sanskrit means Lemon and Lime. People of Bengal still call it Lebu. L substitutes N. Arabic = Limun, Persian=Limou.
Mantra: powerful words for chanting. Sanskrit. Mana+Tra. Mana=mind, Tra=trana=to free. The thought of which frees our mind.
Mind: Mana, Manas. Sanskrit.
Nirvana: Sanskrit. Ultimate Freedom. Extinguish.
Three: Vedic Sanskrit. Tri. Means 3. Like Gayatri, Triveda, trishula.
Diva: Divya, Sanskrit. Meaning of Godly source. Deva= god, Devi =goddess.
Navy: Nauka, Nau. Ancient Indian*. Sanskrit. means a boat. That which floats in water. Or Navik= an experienced sailor or navigator.

Few mistake there.

Charisma come from the greek χάρισμα meaning gift or divine favour.


Navy comes from the French navigium meaning "fleet of ships", which in turn comes from the latin navis, "ship" and agere, "to drive"

Three The prefix "tri-" supposedly comes form Sanskrit, but three itself comes from Latin "tres"

Mind comes from old English ġemynd, which comes from proto-germanic gamunđiz. which if it shares any common origin with the sanscrit word mana is only through the hypothetical proto-indo-european language, which of course means it pre-dates both languages and so one can not be said to be derived of the other.

[sesame]

Early form of Sanskrit or Vedic language is from 2000 BC or earlier.
Early Greek language begins at 750 BC.
Ancient Roman or Latin begins from 100 Bc to 100 AD.

The Nava, Nau, Nauka word meaning boat or navigation is from Rigveda. As it sounds similar and means the same in all other relatively younger languages, it must be the origin of the word. Same goes for "mind".

Same reason goes for Two, three... Ten. I am not sure of the word one. Sanskrit is Ek. Zero and decimal system comes from Sanskrit again.

Second as a unit of time comes from the Sanskrit word, Ksana or Ksanda.

[SluttyShemaleAnna]

Originally Posted by sesame

Early form of Sanskrit or Vedic language is from 2000 BC or earlier.
Early Greek language begins at 750 BC.
Ancient Roman or Latin begins from 100 Bc to 100 AD.

The Nava, Nau, Nauka word meaning boat or navigation is from Rigveda. As it sounds similar and means the same in all other relatively younger languages, it must be the origin of the word. Same goes for "mind".

Same reason goes for Two, three... Ten. I am not sure of the word one. Sanskrit is Ek. Zero and decimal system comes from Sanskrit again.

Second as a unit of time comes from the Sanskrit word, Ksana or Ksanda.

Last time I checked mana does not sound like gamunđiz. and second as a unit of time comes from French.

Being first does not make it the origin, isolation of the Indian subcontinent from Europe prior to 2000BC makes it pretty unlikely that Ancient greek words could have originated from Sanskrit, a common origin is not the same thing as a derivation, does it make sense to you that a set of people would divide onto different continents, develop thier own languages, then one set of people develops a new language based on the other set whom they have no recorded direct contact with at all? Or is it more sensible that a set of people had one language, they divided and they developed languages based on that one language independently?

The original language was proto-indo-european.



oh and also, in your list baba is not an English word.

[Ogryn1313]

I can only speak English and just enough German that if I was magically whisked to Germany I could get by and still look a fool to the Germans.

[Mel Asher]

Originally Posted by sesame

Well, Pundit and Guru are actually Sanskrit words, but I guess they got into the English vocabulary from the Hindi dialect during the British Raj in India.
Other words are:

avatar: meaning the incarnations of God on earth.
karma: means both good and bad actions in Sanskrit; but in the West, only the bad deeds are taken for the word Karma.
Guru: means spiritual master, teacher, initiator. Gu= darkness, Ru= Light. He who takes us from darkness to light is the Guru.
Desi: local, grown in the state.
Charisma: Urdu word. Meaning~ Miracle.
Baba: father, papa, dad. Sometimes refers to a holyman.
Yoga: Sanskrit. Means connection, way. Commonly people think of Hatha-Yoga postures by this word, but it really refers to the connection between man and God.
Lemon: "Nimbu" Early Sanskrit means Lemon and Lime. People of Bengal still call it Lebu. L substitutes N. Arabic = Limun, Persian=Limou.
Mantra: powerful words for chanting. Sanskrit. Mana+Tra. Mana=mind, Tra=trana=to free. The thought of which frees our mind.
Mind: Mana, Manas. Sanskrit.
Nirvana: Sanskrit. Ultimate Freedom. Extinguish.
Three: Vedic Sanskrit. Tri. Means 3. Like Gayatri, Triveda, trishula.
Diva: Divya, Sanskrit. Meaning of Godly source. Deva= god, Devi =goddess.
Navy: Nauka, Nau. Ancient Indian*. Sanskrit. means a boat. That which floats in water. Or Navik= an experienced sailor or navigator.

A veritable plethora of linguistic equivalence examples, Sesame. As such it quite definitely puts the modest selection you originally requested from me firmly into the shade. Heigh-ho ! But it's still all you're going to get from me off-the-cuff ! !

Meantime, as etymological interest still seems to show a few signs of life in this thread, here's a little palindrome from Ancient Greece to keep your appetite sharp ! I haven't bothered to include the accenting it doesn't really affect the meaning of the words. No doubt you will tease out the translation as it's not too obscure :

niyonὀnomhma mh monon ὀyin ( could even make a good advert for detergent perhaps ! )

[ila]

Originally Posted by Mel Asher

It is well documented that invaders eventually incorporate the language of those that they invade, that is, if they settle the land. This was most certainly the case of the Romans who adopted much of the language of the Latins whom they subsumed. To a lesser degree, Latin is littered with Etruscan words incorporated into the language of Rome, although the Etruscans as a people survived much much longer than the Latins. In the case of English, it is true that the ' Low German ' variant of the German Tribes used widely by the Angles, and then later that of the Saxons were combined in the development of AngloSaxon, but the language structure that developed was not Germanic. Instead it was Celtic, taken from the peoples that the Angles and Saxons displaced. Cornish is a somewhat shaky survivor from this. And then ? Norman French. Viking settlers in Brittany with their Scandinavian language.

As soon as I get the time Mel I shall refute your arguments, quoting applicable text. Until then all I will say is that you are not completely right and you are not completely wrong.