Liberal free for all coming to an end

[smc]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Appeal to Ridicule does not always involve a strawman. I did not accuse you of insulting me. I accused you of ridiculing my statement, like you said, without addressing the statement.

You should read more carefully. My point about "insulting" was relevant to my last post, not your post that first brought up the false "logical fallacy."

And I did address your statement. It is unworthy of serious discourse. That is my response.

Again, there are serious issues to discuss. This birther crap is not among that set.

I have typically avoided political discussions on this forum mainly because, as I?ve said before, I don?t enjoy discussing complex issues unless I know who I?m talking to. Get me in a room with my students, friends, or colleagues however, and it is a completely different ballgame! One of the basic problems of online discussion is that it is next to impossible to fully argue a solution to a complex problem such as what to do about health care, global warming, or the economy in a short text response. We unfortunately tend to take a side and cling to it, failing to hear what others are saying, and then attacking or labeling their beliefs--often incorrectly.

What I have seen of political discourse on the Internet in general is discouraging. Unfortunately so is it here. The few ?political? threads I have seen on ?TLB? all seem to be dominated by the same person with the express goal of stating their own views and excluding or ridiculing all others. The same pattern occurs over and over again: whether it be universal health care, Obama?s nationality, net neutrality, or a supposed ?liberal free for all.? The stage is ?set in advance?--like a trap--with loaded arguments and titles like ?There Goes the Internet.? The issue is presented not for discussion--but rather as a challenge--to see who will dare to question the OP.

Many well thought out and reasonable arguments have indeed been presented in each thread, both for and against the OP. However almost all statements ?against? the OP have been dismissed with ridicule, denial that something was ever said, labeling, sarcastic remarks, and reliance on statements that make me think too much time is spent listening to Rush Limbaugh, watching Fox news, and not getting out of the house. Almost never is an idea attacked or supported on its own merits or with real evidence. Personally I want nothing to do with this sort of political ?discussion,? nor do I believe that it belongs in this forum.

[randolph]

Tracy, you sometimes appear to belong to the "don't confuse me with the facts crowd".
The following is an excerpt from Wikipedia.

"In 2008 the Obama campaign released his birth certificate, certified by the Hawaii Department of Health, and posted a scanned image of it online. The posted certificate states that Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, on August 4, 1961.[1] The certificate also states, "This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding". Frequent arguments of those questioning Obama's eligibility are that he has not released a photocopy of his "original" or "long form" birth certificate, but rather a redacted "short form" version. It has also been claimed that the use of the term "certification of live birth" on the document means it is not equivalent to one's "birth certificate". These arguments have been debunked numerous times by media investigations,[13] every judicial forum that has addressed the matter, and Hawaiian government officials?a consensus of whom have concluded that the certificate released by the Obama campaign is indeed his official birth certificate.[14] Asked about this, Hawaiian Department of Health spokeswoman Janice Okubo stated that Hawaii "does not have a short-form or long-form certificate".[15] Moreover, the director of her Department has confirmed that the state "has Sen. Obama?s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures".[16][17]"

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

Tracy, you sometimes appear to belong to the "don't confuse me with the facts crowd".
The following is an excerpt from Wikipedia.

I admit I hadn't done my Wikipedia research. That's interesting about the long form birth certificate. Although there's a woman in a paper I saw who had twins born at the same hospital as BO on the day after he was born, and she's showed their birth certificates. I don't know if it's officially called a long form, but it requires a lot more information than BO's certificate has (image attached).

What keeps me curious is the fact that his own grandmother ID'd him at the birth canal in Kenya, and that he later had Indonesian citizenship (not dual since that was not allowed in Indonesia). And now this thing with the governor of Hawaii, who seems to be trying to help BO isn't doing him any favors LOL. And the fact that he goes to great lengths to conceal his original birth certificate isn't doing himself any favors either. Unless it doesn't exist, in which case I guess he would be doing himself a favor by refusing to show it.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

I admit I hadn't done my Wikipedia research. That's interesting about the long form birth certificate. Although there's a woman in a paper I saw who had twins born at the same hospital as BO on the day after he was born, and she's showed their birth certificates. I don't know if it's officially called a long form, but it requires a lot more information than BO's certificate has (image attached).

What keeps me curious is the fact that his own grandmother ID'd him at the birth canal in Kenya, and that he later had Indonesian citizenship (not dual since that was not allowed in Indonesia). And now this thing with the governor of Hawaii, who seems to be trying to help BO isn't doing him any favors LOL. And the fact that he goes to great lengths to conceal his original birth certificate isn't doing himself any favors either. Unless it doesn't exist, in which case I guess he would be doing himself a favor by refusing to show it.

It seems that once a political idea is implanted in the mind, anecdotal evidence becomes of equal value as actual verifiable facts.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

It seems that once a political idea is implanted in the mind, anecdotal evidence becomes of equal value as actual verifiable facts.

How is it that birth certificates from other births at the same hospital as BO was born at and at the same time not directly show what type of birth certificates BO's hospital was producing at the time?

[randolph]

HONOLULU ? Anyone would be able to get a copy of President Barack Obama's birth records for a $100 fee under a bill introduced in the state Legislature that backers hope will finally dispel claims he was born elsewhere.
The bill would change a privacy law barring the release of birth records unless the requester is someone with a tangible interest, such as a close family member.
The measure was introduced by five Democrats but has not yet been scheduled for a public hearing, a required step before it can move forward. A decision on considering the bill will be made by the House's Democratic leadership and committee

Maybe this will shutup the birthers.

[smc]

Originally Posted by randolph

Maybe this will shutup the birthers.

Not likely, since the birther kerfuffle is a cover for not being to have a rational argument about substantive issues. At best, it will have the same people move on to some other bullshit.

[smc]

At the end of the day, the real question is:

Which side are you on?

In this thread, a lot of the posters seem to be on the side of the guy on the left, even though that side cares nothing about their interests.

Go figure ...

[Enoch Root]

The political spectrum in the US--and as a result the political spectrum in my country--is absurd. Both choices present you with corporatism/empire and there is nowhere to turn to. All progressive voices are silenced or ridiculed.

In my country the choices are a) remain in a subservient/slavish status to the US or b) transform ourselves into the 51st state of America. Neither of these satisfy me since both require playing party to imperialism.