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  #1  
Old 11-01-2010
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I hope tomorrow is not the start of Armageddon.
There is lots of good people out there, they just need to VOTE!
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Old 11-02-2010
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I hope tomorrow is not the start of Armageddon.
There is lots of good people out there, they just need to VOTE!
That first cartoon funny.

In all seriousness, and not to open a can of worms, the Federal government needs to be downsized.
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Old 11-02-2010
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That first cartoon funny.

In all seriousness, and not to open a can of worms, the Federal government needs to be downsized.
How true, how about starting with the military industrial complex. Imagine what the country could do if we weren't spending trillions of dollars on wars.
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Old 11-02-2010
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How true, how about starting with the military industrial complex. Imagine what the country could do if we weren't spending trillions of dollars on wars.
There's probably a lot that can be cut in the military as well as several other areas. Hell, there are whole departments of the government that could be cut. But obviously you wouldn't want to cut too much of the military.

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Stay at home. Don't bother to vote. Regardless of what party they belong to, they are all a bunch of crooks.
Excellent advice, and I've told it to all my democrat friends.
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Old 11-02-2010
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Reid stays as senate majority leader... ughhh.
Pelosi is ousted... Yes!!! Good riddance b[leep].

Well one thing is for sure... The liberal free for all has come to an end!
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Old 11-03-2010
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Reid stays as senate majority leader... ughhh.
Pelosi is ousted... Yes!!! Good riddance b[leep].

Well one thing is for sure... The liberal free for all has come to an end!
Well, lets hope all these clowns take off their makeup and get down to business to save the country. we are getting very close to the precipice.
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Old 11-03-2010
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How true, how about starting with the military industrial complex. Imagine what the country could do if we weren't spending trillions of dollars on wars.
The Federal Government is far too intrusive about things that they have no buisness being involved with. For example education, enviromental protection, marriage, NASA, welfare, and now health care to name a few. The Tenth Amendment gives these matters to the individual States.
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The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
(BTW I am a believer in State's Rights.)
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Old 11-03-2010
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The Federal Government is far too intrusive about things that they have no buisness being involved with. For example education, enviromental protection, marriage, NASA, welfare, and now health care to name a few. The Tenth Amendment gives these matters to the individual States. (BTW I am a believer in State's Rights.)
Huzzah! The Feds should only be involved in national defense and the wellbeing of the country as it was originally intended. And I quote Article 1, Section 8 of the United States Constitution:

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The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
There are only 17 things that the fed has power over, which is mainly dealing with national defense and some regulation of our currency.
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Old 11-04-2010
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LMAO!!! I had tears in my eyes laughing so hard at this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdES0GP0KhI
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Old 11-02-2010
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If voting changed anything the establishment would make it illegal.

Stay at home. Don't bother to vote. Regardless of what party they belong to, they are all a bunch of crooks.
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Old 11-06-2010
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Could an American answer a question for me please... Why is it that people over there don't like the idea of having a national health service?

Our (UK) NHS service is something we couldn't live without and if the government said we had to pay for everything there would be riots.
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Old 11-06-2010
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Could an American answer a question for me please... Why is it that people over there don't like the idea of having a national health service?

Our (UK) NHS service is something we couldn't live without and if the government said we had to pay for everything there would be riots.
You do pay for everything. It's just that you pay for it indirectly through your taxes.
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Old 11-07-2010
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Could an American answer a question for me please... Why is it that people over there don't like the idea of having a national health service?

Our (UK) NHS service is something we couldn't live without and if the government said we had to pay for everything there would be riots.
Because for one thing we already have a system where people get health insurance through their employers, and 85% of Americans are happy with the way this works.

For another thing, to change the system to a national health service would require everyone's health premiums to go up like $2000/year and the result would be degraded medical service.

And for another thing, our country is deep in debt and cannot afford the national health care system that was enacted.
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Old 11-07-2010
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SMC made the point, the Repubs don't want to reveal the vast amount of corporate secret funding for their campaigns. When the voters realize that most of the funding comes from BP, the chamber of commerce and the likes of the Kock brothers they may decide to vote for someone else.
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Old 11-07-2010
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SMC made the point, the Repubs don't want to reveal the vast amount of corporate secret funding for their campaigns. When the voters realize that most of the funding comes from BP, the chamber of commerce and the likes of the Kock brothers they may decide to vote for someone else.
Ok, so if voters aren't going to vote for republicans when they see this, and they aren't going to vote for democrats when they see how much funding comes from George Soros and Media Matters and MoveOn.org and hollywood, etc, then who will they vote for? Libertarian?
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Old 11-07-2010
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Ok, so if voters aren't going to vote for republicans when they see this, and they aren't going to vote for democrats when they see how much funding comes from George Soros and Media Matters and MoveOn.org and hollywood, etc, then who will they vote for? Libertarian?
You got it!
We need a third party that represents us, the working middle class.
I am fed up with both parties but I cant take the Tea Party. I understand the outrage of the Tea Party but they are clueless and pawns of the big guys. We need to impeach the Supreme Court Justices that voted for the corporate flooding of money into the election system.
We also need to change the election system so members of congress get elected for only one term of six years and cant run for reelection. This would eliminate a lot of this campaigning crap. If we don't like what they are doing during their six year term, impeach them.
We have to do something or we are going to lose not only our freedom but the ability to make a living.
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Old 11-07-2010
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You do pay for everything. It's just that you pay for it indirectly through your taxes.
I know, but say if you needed life saving drugs which are very expensive you wouldn't be able to get them would you? The NHS also gives us piece of mind as you know that no matter what (pretty much), you will get treated. Even people that are only here on holiday get treated for free iirc. Everyone is treated the same and has the access to drugs they may need.

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Because for one thing we already have a system where people get health insurance through their employers, and 85% of Americans are happy with the way this works.

For another thing, to change the system to a national health service would require everyone's health premiums to go up like $2000/year and the result would be degraded medical service.

And for another thing, our country is deep in debt and cannot afford the national health care system that was enacted.
I understand that, but if there was a shake-up of the rules it would be a lot fairer for everyone and there wouldn't be huge corporations trying to profit off someone's illness. Which I think is disgusting.

I often wonder how the american public let these corporations do what they do. They must spend so much money on propaganda.


---

Thanks for the replies
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Old 11-08-2010
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I understand that, but if there was a shake-up of the rules it would be a lot fairer for everyone and there wouldn't be huge corporations trying to profit off someone's illness. Which I think is disgusting.
A huge corporation is not a synonym for evil. Corporations and small businesses are what drives our economy. Yes insurance companies make a profit, but so do doctors. They make a profit because someone has to manage the system that makes it possible for people to get medical treatment, and that someone provides a service. Is it disgusting that car mechanics make a profit off of other people's misfortunes? People are paid for the services they provide. If it was managed by the government then there would be no competition to keep prices low and to keep wasted spending to a manageable level. And again... we are maxed out in debt and cannot afford it. (Why does no one see that last sentence? Why is it completely irrelevant that there is a mountain of debt and all people can think of is what else to add to it?)

One way or another, whether it's through insurance premiums or taxes, people pay for medical treatment. Either insurance companies (aka evil corporations) receive a profit for getting you the medical treatment you need or a large portion of what you're paying through taxes is wasted on a one-size fits all government solution.
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Old 11-08-2010
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A huge corporation is not a synonym for evil. Corporations and small businesses are what drives our economy. Yes insurance companies make a profit, but so do doctors. They make a profit because someone has to manage the system that makes it possible for people to get medical treatment, and that someone provides a service. Is it disgusting that car mechanics make a profit off of other people's misfortunes? People are paid for the services they provide. If it was managed by the government then there would be no competition to keep prices low and to keep wasted spending to a manageable level. And again... we are maxed out in debt and cannot afford it. (Why does no one see that last sentence? Why is it completely irrelevant that there is a mountain of debt and all people can think of is what else to add to it?)

Life/health and a busted car are hardly equal.
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Old 11-08-2010
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Life/health and a busted car are hardly equal.
The principle is still the same though.
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Old 11-08-2010
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Life/health and a busted car are hardly equal.
You're right. I'd rather have a sinus infection than a cracked engine block. Yes some medical problems are more serious, but many are not.
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Old 11-08-2010
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Could an American answer a question for me please... Why is it that people over there don't like the idea of having a national health service?
For me, it's a matter of having the freedom to decide for myself. In other words, I don't want some self-appointed genius in D.C. telling me that I have to get insurance even if I don't need it. I get my insurance through my job, thank you very much.
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Old 11-09-2010
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I get my insurance through my job, thank you very much.
Well, aren't you the lucky one. Not everyone has such good fortune. But of course, this is America -- the one highly developed nation in the world where "social solidarity" is not just nearly non-existent, but where its opposite is taught to you from your first days in school. So, while we are all foolishly chasing the false "American dream" we've been taught about, and believing that the only righteous thing is to "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps," the rest of the developed world is surpassing the United States in every single category of social good, from literacy rates to birth rates to public transportation to educational achievement in math and science to ... the list is too endless for this site.

That crap we Americans were taught in school about individualism and making your own way and so on -- that serves a political and, more important, an economic purpose for those with the financial means -- in this country these days, typically acquired through economic activity that serves absolutely no productive purpose -- so that they never have to worry about paying for healthcare or relying on public transit or going to a decent public school or ... well, again, the list is too endless for this site.

When I was in Paris once, I came upon a group of about 30 people protesting outside a neighborhood daycare center early one morning. The government was discussing cutting back the funding for the creche. I spoke with nearly everyone there, and I could find only 5 people who had kids in the daycare center. All the rest were there because they realized that everyone in France benefited from public-funded daycare, and that their neighbors -- and hence their neighborhood -- was enriched by the fact that the daycare center made it possible for some people to work where they might not otherwise be able to keep a job. When the saw the possibility of that benefit disappearing for a few, they realized that it would hurt them all.

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Old 11-09-2010
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Very well said SMC, humanity is in short supply in the good old USA. The conservatives are under the delusion that we can have a great country consisting of a few rich people and the rest working for them. Its not unlike the South before the Civil War. One of these days we will wake up, I hope it will not be too late.
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Old 11-09-2010
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Very well said SMC, humanity is in short supply in the good old USA. The conservatives are under the delusion that we can have a great country consisting of a few rich people and the rest working for them. Its not unlike the South before the Civil War. One of these days we will wake up, I hope it will not be too late.
How is this like the Civil War times? Would you care to elaborate?
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Old 11-09-2010
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Well, aren't you the lucky one. Not everyone has such good fortune. But of course, this is America -- the one highly developed nation in the world where "social solidarity" is not just nearly non-existent, but where its opposite is taught to you from your first days in school.
Exactly. Theoretically this country is supposed to grant individual liberties. It's an experiment in government so at least there's one place on Earth you can go if individual liberty is what you seek. It's not for everyone so don't feel bad if it's not for you. If people are in a country that goes against their nature they hopefully can immigrate to another country. That's why immigrants come here. There are many other countries where you can work to support your fellow citizens or mooch off the work of others. btw... lower taxes on businesses and they will hire more people. Then more people get health insurance.

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So, while we are all foolishly chasing the false "American dream" we've been taught about, and believing that the only righteous thing is to "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps," the rest of the developed world is surpassing the United States in every single category of social good, from literacy rates to birth rates to public transportation to educational achievement in math and science to ... the list is too endless for this site.
Thank America's religious fundamentalists for some of that. As for the high birth rates, no thank you. Who needs over population?

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That crap we Americans were taught in school about individualism and making your own way and so on -- that serves
... to make our people self sufficient and masters of their own destinies.

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When I was in Paris once, I came upon a group of about 30 people protesting outside a neighborhood daycare center early one morning. The government was discussing cutting back the funding for the creche. I spoke with nearly everyone there, and I could find only 5 people who had kids in the daycare center. All the rest were there because they realized that everyone in France benefited from public-funded daycare, and that their neighbors -- and hence their neighborhood -- was enriched by the fact that the daycare center made it possible for some people to work where they might not otherwise be able to keep a job. When the saw the possibility of that benefit disappearing for a few, they realized that it would hurt them all.
Good example. Once you make people feel they're entitled to something you can't get rid of it. It becomes yet another expense that the government pays and burdens the population with through taxes, whether they have kids or not. The end result? A bloated out of control welfare state.
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Good example. Once you make people feel they're entitled to something you can't get rid of it. It becomes yet another expense that the government pays and burdens the population with through taxes, whether they have kids or not. The end result? A bloated out of control welfare state.
I forgot to mention one other thing. The United States has the lowest percentage of citizens with passports of any developed country. Most Americans have never been outside of North America. I don't know about you, Tracy -- perhaps that doesn't apply in your case. But the point in general is that Americans presume to know how people in other countries feel, as you reveal in your response.

These people in France didn't feel burdened by taxes. People throughout Europe gladly pay for the social welfare systems they have. Denmark has enormously high taxes and, by nearly every scientific study, the most content and happy people in the developed world. Why? Because they enjoy lives absent from most of the financial stressors that make Americans unhappy (such as having to worry about paying for healthcare, or college, or whatever). The happiness of everyone around them turns into a generalized societal happiness.

No one in France I've ever spoken to thinks of things as "entitlements" the way you use the word. They think of what we call "entitlements" in the United States as willing purchases they and their society have made for the good of all. That's why they protest so vehemently against changes in the social welfare system pushed by the wealthy. It's because they realize that the "individual liberty" that so many in America think Americans possess can be a catchphrase for something quite insidious.
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Old 11-09-2010
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I see the way language plays here. Entitlement is a bad word, full of negative connotations. It draws the image of an unruly child holding his parents to the fire for something he doesn’t need yet keeps demanding. But the same could not be said of something like healtchcare. This is something people need. And if sacrifices must be made to give the people something as vital as that, then why not? This is not insidious. It is a matter of compassion for the fellow man.

Language. Politicians have a way of screwing with it, people will not necessarily notice. For example, I was watching the news the other day and a pundit tried to rebut something someone else said by calling what the man proposed “class warfare.” They were speaking of raising taxes on the wealthy. This, as anyone can see with enough time, is spin. It is using, manipulating, language. It poisons the well because of its violent tones. Yet the rich get richer and the poor get poorer—and I will not apologize for using such a clich?d sentence, for it is true and gets the point across. If anyone is waging “warfare” it is not the poor or the middle class waging war on the rich, but the other way around. It is a case of the victimizers making themselves out to be victims. It reminds me of opponents of same-sex marriage and all that good stuff claiming that same-sex couples do not deserve marriage because they are asking for “special” rights. When it is, in fact, the opponents who are obliquely asking for special rights since they wish for the ability to get married to be cordoned off only for heterosexual couples. In both cases those who claim “class warfare” is being waged against the rich or that same-sex couples are asking for “special” rights are manipulating language.

I remember wanting to tear at my scalp whenever I heard McCain spout his nonsense about “pulling oneself up by the bootstraps.” Tracy, you were born, fed and bred in a country that has no sense of community. No sense of solidarity. It is every man for himself. The cowboy is a national symbol! But no one can live by oneself. No man is an island. It is an illusion. Are we individuals? Yes. But being an individual is not about “me, me, me, me.” It is about growing. It is about knowing oneself. And from there, knowing others and loving others and caring for others. In your country, growing emotionally and intellectually and expressing that love is too often cause for discomfort. I know this. I lived in the United States for five years and learned this lesson quite well. And I was hurt over and again because I knew I could not truly be myself with most of the populace. I had to live, so to speak, in the closet.

You live in tiny rooms, in insulated houses, in suburbs, where no one knows your name. Rather than in the light, outside, amongst friends and family on whom to depend and whom to love. To depend is not a bad thing. We need other people and we need help. It is the human condition. But in your country, to depend on anything is seen as a bad thing. And the powers that be depend on you thinking so, so that, as SMC put it, they never have to contribute. So that they never have to sacrifice. Living instead off us to an extent, in total disregard of everyone the rest of the time. The idea that they should never sacrifice or that they do no wrong, that they are the economic engine of your country and therefore deserve all they make, is an idea better left to disappear into the wind. A fiction, and quite a fiction it is. I do not like the near-reverent tones of many people when they speak of “the free market.” They sound like proselytizers. The invisible hand of the free market… Much like a god behind all, an invisible arbiter.

I do not know your background Tracy. But I cannot help thinking that you were well taken care of when you were younger. That your parents had the means for ___ (whatever means those were for whatever you needed). Yet that is not the case for everyone. It is easy to say things like “pulling by one’s bootstraps” when you do have bootstraps and they are fine leather or some other material whose integrity has not been compromised. It is another when you are poor and live in a terrible neighborhood. It is not so easy to move up socially. It can take generations, when it could be made to much easier. Why shouldn’t we have such things as national healthcare where all are covered, and people need not worry about how to pay for college, and instead need only prepare the boxes and the car and send your child off to study? We shouldn’t have to drown ourselves in debt for these things and then get drowned in grief and depression over what that debt could do to us. These things should be our birthright—never to be taken for granted, always fought for, always to be cherished.

Often when I hear opposition to such things as a system where all are given healthcare or supplying higher education, it does not seem to truly be about financial concerns, but about disregard for anyone other than oneself. Is this the case with you? Or could I rest easy knowing it is not so? You say that now is not the time for something like healthcare reform—yet when will it be the time? I read such a thing from you and I cannot help thinking that it is but a stalling tactic, much as others have done for a decade now concerning allowing homosexuals into the army. Now is not the time, yet when there is relative peace there is still opposition. When will it be the time?
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Old 11-09-2010
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These people in France didn't feel burdened by taxes. People throughout Europe gladly pay for the social welfare systems they have. Denmark has enormously high taxes and, by nearly every scientific study, the most content and happy people in the developed world. Why? Because they enjoy lives absent from most of the financial stressors that make Americans unhappy (such as having to worry about paying for healthcare, or college, or whatever). The happiness of everyone around them turns into a generalized societal happiness.

No one in France I've ever spoken to thinks of things as "entitlements" the way you use the word. They think of what we call "entitlements" in the United States as willing purchases they and their society have made for the good of all. That's why they protest so vehemently against changes in the social welfare system pushed by the wealthy. It's because they realize that the "individual liberty" that so many in America think Americans possess can be a catchphrase for something quite insidious.
There are a wide spectrum of people. Some like to live completely alone with no one telling them what to do, and they hunt their own food etc. They are perfectly happy like that. At the other end of the spectrum are the French. Like I said, individual freedom isn't for everyone. May everyone find the country that is suited for them.
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Well, aren't you the lucky one. Not everyone has such good fortune. But of course, this is America -- the one highly developed nation in the world where "social solidarity" is not just nearly non-existent, but where its opposite is taught to you from your first days in school. So, while we are all foolishly chasing the false "American dream" we've been taught about, and believing that the only righteous thing is to "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps,"
Firstly, yes I am fortunate. However, I remember when things were a lot rougher. Growing up, we had barely enough, if any at all, money for groceries; so more times than I care to mention, I went to bed hungry. For about three years all our cooking was either on the grill or more often the microwave because we couldn't afford to have the gas turned back on. And for heat in the winter, it was one little space heater and blankets. In all that time, not one of your glorius social programs came to our relief (and my parents tried to get assistance from them several times). No we had to "pull ourselves up by our bootstraps".

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...because they realized that everyone in France benefited from public-funded daycare...
Secondly, public(government) funded daycare --- you have got to be kidding me. [INCERT SARCASM]I think we should have a 100% tax on our paychecks. That way the government can provide everything from groceries, to gas for our cars, to paying our rent/mortgages, to premium satalite T.V. service, to utilities, to cloths and anything else we may wish.

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Well I found a discussion I like. After reading so many of the post, I seem to forget what was said, so I will just add my little bit. Some one said the right does not have to feared, your right. If we can bring down the size of Government, they will by proxy have less to do with state law, and so leaving most things in the hands of the state. As the constitution has made clear it should be. The people have the right to govern them-selves. Some thing long forgotten by DC. Most folks don't know it any more, but in your county the Sheriff has the upper hand in all matters of law. Or should have by the constitution. Just as the left has set asaid the fact the the will of the people is what should make laws not them and what they alone want.
I also seen a list of nations that have Socialized Health-care. Of them almost every one is looking at it being a burden they can not keep up. I work in Health care, and I can tell you that what I see them doing to be ready for Obummer care is not a good thing. Most of the Docs, are looking to relocate in a nation that does not have government controlled health care. It has nothing to with their pay, they are looking to find a place they can do some good. The elderly in this nation will be forced out long term care and sent home, this is not a good thing. You see the care they get in long turm care is meant to give them a little more time on this earth. I work in long term care, and most of the family members I talk with simply can not give the care that is needed. Obummercare does have some good points don't get me wrong. Nothing in this world is with out them. Yet if you look at the cuts that will be made in medicare and medacade just to pay for all the people that will be added to them, it simply adds up to less coverage, and lower quality of care. If any thinks this is wrong, ask any one that lives in Canada why they would rather come to the USA for care.
Now lets talk about taxes. The only way to ever gt the rich to pay their share is go to a flat tax. this will do many thing for this nation. First off every one will be paying in the same. If you make 100 that year you would pay in 15. (assuming a 15% flat tax) if you make a mil you pay in 150,000, I think the math is right any how. Next, we would not have to pay out what ever it is to keep IRS working. Big savings there I bet. Cap and Tax will only drive this nation further into debt. How? With the passing of that bill you will see your house hold bills double if not more. If their is less disposable cash, then we don't spend as much. if we don't spend, we also do not produce. You see if it cost more to make, then we have one of 2 things happen. Bissness closes, we import more to make up for that. Or they move over seas. Ether way jobs are lost. With that comes less income, and more unemployment going out.
Sorry for all the misspelled words, I am dyslexic and my spell check does not work on this sight for some reason. It was earlier.
Ok got it working, Hope I fixed all the misspelled words, if not forgive me.

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Well I found a discussion I like. After reading so many of the post, I seem to forget what was said, so I will just add my little bit. Some one said the right does not have to feared, your right. If we can bring down the size of Government, they will by proxy have less to do with state law, and so leaving most things in the hands of the state. As the constitution has made clear it should be. The people have the right to govern them-selves. Some thing long forgotten by DC. Most folks don't know it any more, but in your county the Sheriff has the upper hand in all matters of law. Or should have by the constitution. Just as the left has set asaid the fact the the will of the people is what should make laws not them and what they alone want.
I also seen a list of nations that have Socialized Health-care. Of them almost every one is looking at it being a burden they can not keep up. I work in Health care, and I can tell you that what I see them doing to be ready for Obummer care is not a good thing. Most of the Docs, are looking to relocate in a nation that does not have government controlled health care. It has nothing to with their pay, they are looking to find a place they can do some good. The elderly in this nation will be forced out long term care and sent home, this is not a good thing. You see the care they get in long turm care is meant to give them a little more time on this earth. I work in long term care, and most of the family members I talk with simply can not give the care that is needed. Obummercare does have some good points don't get me wrong. Nothing in this world is with out them. Yet if you look at the cuts that will be made in medicare and medacade just to pay for all the people that will be added to them, it simply adds up to less coverage, and lower quality of care. If any thinks this is wrong, ask any one that lives in Canada why they would rather come to the USA for care.
Now lets talk about taxes. The only way to ever gt the rich to pay their share is go to a flat tax. this will do many thing for this nation. First off every one will be paying in the same. If you make 100 that year you would pay in 15. (assuming a 15% flat tax) if you make a mil you pay in 150,000, I think the math is right any how. Next, we would not have to pay out what ever it is to keep IRS working. Big savings there I bet. Cap and Tax will only drive this nation further into debt. How? With the passing of that bill you will see your house hold bills double if not more. If their is less disposable cash, then we don't spend as much. if we don't spend, we also do not produce. You see if it cost more to make, then we have one of 2 things happen. Bissness closes, we import more to make up for that. Or they move over seas. Ether way jobs are lost. With that comes less income, and more unemployment going out.
Sorry for all the misspelled words, I am dyslexic and my spell check does not work on this sight for some reason. It was earlier.
Ok got it working, Hope I fixed all the misspelled words, if not forgive me.
People should be very careful generalizing their personal experiences. There are far too many serious issues at stake to be saying ridiculous, unproven, and likely false things such as "Most of the Docs, are looking to relocate in a nation that does not have government controlled health care. It has nothing to with their pay, they are looking to find a place they can do some good."

Facile solutions are pablum.

And how about some respect? "Obummer"? How can you be taken seriously when you belittle serious discourse.

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Old 01-28-2011
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There is talk of changing Federal law to allow states to go into bankruptcy and restructure their finances. In view of the dire situation here in California, this may be the way to go. After years of handing out plush salaries and generous retirements and borrowing money to cover operating costs, the state is frozen in a political stalemate. No one is willing to give up anything, the legislature is a farce. Jerry Brown sincerely wants to do something but his power is very limited by the initiative process that has locked expenses into the Constitution.
Bankruptcy would allow the state to break down all the special interests and start from scratch. Sounds good to me.
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Old 01-29-2011
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People should be very careful generalizing their personal experiences. There are far too many serious issues at stake to be saying ridiculous, unproven, and likely false things such as "Most of the Docs, are looking to relocate in a nation that does not have government controlled health care. It has nothing to with their pay, they are looking to find a place they can do some good."

Facile solutions are pablum.

And how about some respect? "Obummer"? How can you be taken seriously when you belittle serious discourse.
Well to start when I say most docs, I am talking of the ones I work with and talk to daily. Like I say I work in health care, you don't think a topic as big as health care would not be talked about. Give me a brake.
Also it is not the discourse I belittle, it the idiot that wishes to impose a law on the people that he has set up so he does not have to take part in it.
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Well to start when I say most docs, I am talking of the ones I work with and talk to daily.
Of course you are. My point is that to extrapolate from that to make a political point is ridiculous. I have a primary care physician and three specialists I see regularly. Each and every one of them thinks something quite different from you have posted. The physicians I know in the healthcare program at my university think otherwise, too.

As Mark Twain once wrote, "All generalizations are false, including this one."

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Like I say I work in health care, you don't think a topic as big as health care would not be talked about. Give me a brake.
I never wrote anything that remotely corresponds to your quote above, so don't put words in my mouth ... even if by inference.

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Also it is not the discourse I belittle, it the idiot that wishes to impose a law on the people that he has set up so he does not have to take part in it.
Of course it's the discourse that you belittle, denigrate, etc. By calling names and making facile generalizations, you diminish the quality of the discourse. Instead of discussing healthcare reform and the legislation on its merits, or exclusively on its merits, you resort to "Obummercare" and now, calling someone an idiot. Do you mean Obama? How do you suppose you would fare in a test against Obama using some of the standardized tests to measure if one is an "idiot" -- e.g., the standard IQ test that rates one who scores below 20 as an "idiot"?

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Of course you are. My point is that to extrapolate from that to make a political point is ridiculous. I have a primary care physician and three specialists I see regularly. Each and every one of them thinks something quite different from you have posted. The physicians I know in the healthcare program at my university think otherwise, too.

You must live in the North east.

As Mark Twain once wrote, "All generalizations are false, including this one."



I never wrote anything that remotely corresponds to your quote above, so don't put words in my mouth ... even if by inference.

Why not you seem be rather doing that.



Of course it's the discourse that you belittle, denigrate, etc. By calling names and making facile generalizations, you diminish the quality of the discourse. Instead of discussing healthcare reform and the legislation on its merits, or exclusively on its merits, you resort to "Obummercare" and now, calling someone an idiot. Do you mean Obama? How do you suppose you would fare in a test against Obama using some of the standardized tests to measure if one is an "idiot" -- e.g., the standard IQ test that rates one who scores below 20 as an "idiot"?
Yet it is Obama I am calling an idiot. Any one willing to push on the people any thing they know is not going to work is an Idiot. Besides all that, as I posted above, find a way to mesher comincents and I know I would out shine Obumer. Or as folks to point out, His name is an acronym for One Big Ass mistake America.
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Yet it is Obama I am calling an idiot. Any one willing to push on the people any thing they know is not going to work is an Idiot. Besides all that, as I posted above, find a way to mesher comincents and I know I would out shine Obumer. Or as folks to point out, His name is an acronym for One Big Ass mistake America.
Your responses don't even warrant rebuttal, since you write idiotic things suggesting that Obama is pushing something on the people that he knows is not going to work.

Truly, ignorance is bliss.

I would bet anything that you couldn't articulate an alternative to the healthcare legislation that would make any sense.
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Well to start when I say most docs, I am talking of the ones I work with and talk to daily. Like I say I work in health care, you don't think a topic as big as health care would not be talked about. Give me a brake...
Being a doctor does not necessarly make one knowledgeable about the intricacies of socialised medicine. It has never been done in the US so I rather doubt there are many doctors that have enough knowledge of the subject to speak intimately of it. One should actually examine how other countries with socialised healthcare operate before making blanket statements such as what you have posted.

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Being a doctor does not necessarly make one knowledgeable about the intricacies of socialised medicine. It has never been done in the US so I rather doubt there are many doctors that have enough knowledge of the subject to speak intimately of it. One should actually examine how other countries with socialised healthcare operate before making blanket statements such as what you have posted.
Will to truly understand thing one must have at lest some first hand knowledge of how it works. You know as well as I do that should I tell you how an 18 wheel works it would seem Greek to you. (Well if you never had to deal with one that is) Yet for some one that has spent better than 1/2 his life in or under one, it would be clear as a bell. I made this statement at work, that was when we found and printed a copy of the bill, before it was passed, and gave it real close look.
Now keep in mind I have said before I am dyslexic, so rather than take the week it would have taken me to really read it, I had some one read it to me, then I went back to the parts I wanted to really look at. So what I have to say about the parts of the bill I did study, come from my understanding of the thing.
The thing I find sad about the who thing though, if it could be made to work, why is it that Canada and England, are now looking for a way to replace it. They both clam they can not keep it going. The cost is to high, and there some other reason that I can not call to mind right off.
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The thing I find sad about the who thing though, if it could be made to work, why is it that Canada and England, are now looking for a way to replace it. They both clam they can not keep it going. The cost is to high, and there some other reason that I can not call to mind right off.
I don?t know and doubt that Canada and England are looking to replace their whole health system, but they are still significant cheaper than the old US health system.

If you have knowledge about it you possible can explain me [B]rational[\B] how it gets more expensive with a system that is cheaper in every other country. I have no interest what you think of single persons, only about what is financial wrong about the health reform? What is different to other countries where a social health care with comparable quality works?

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I don?t know what is made with Obama care, but how can it be more expensive to your insurance payments? What are they doing wrong with the Obama care that it doesn?t get closer to other countries in price?
The cost to start this should be taken by the government, the trillion you (Tracy) mentioned. There is no surprise that this cost much at the beginning, but this should be amortized over time.
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Will to truly understand thing one must have at lest some first hand knowledge of how it works. You know as well as I do that should I tell you how an 18 wheel works it would seem Greek to you. (Well if you never had to deal with one that is) Yet for some one that has spent better than 1/2 his life in or under one, it would be clear as a bell. I made this statement at work, that was when we found and printed a copy of the bill, before it was passed, and gave it real close look.
Now keep in mind I have said before I am dyslexic, so rather than take the week it would have taken me to really read it, I had some one read it to me, then I went back to the parts I wanted to really look at. So what I have to say about the parts of the bill I did study, come from my understanding of the thing.
The thing I find sad about the who thing though, if it could be made to work, why is it that Canada and England, are now looking for a way to replace it. They both clam they can not keep it going. The cost is to high, and there some other reason that I can not call to mind right off.
I can't speak for England, but Canada is not looking to replace the current healthcare system. Every government will always make minor changes and tweaks, but there is no movement to replace the system.

Now back to my original point in your quote and the first sentence of your quote. I wrote that just because one is a doctor in the US does not necessarily make that person an expert or even knowledgeable about socialized healthcare. One would actually have to work in socialized healthcare to be able to properly form an opinion and the majority of doctors in the US have not worked in socialized healthcare.

Next point; a great many countries in Europe also have socialized healthcare and it is functioning well in those countries.

Last point; There is a good chance that I know more about 18 wheel trucks than you do so don't start making assumptions about what I know and what I don't know.
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Old 01-28-2011
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Well I found a discussion I like. After reading so many of the post, I seem to forget what was said, so I will just add my little bit. Some one said the right does not have to feared, your right. If we can bring down the size of Government, they will by proxy have less to do with state law, and so leaving most things in the hands of the state. As the constitution has made clear it should be. The people have the right to govern them-selves. Some thing long forgotten by DC. Most folks don't know it any more, but in your county the Sheriff has the upper hand in all matters of law. Or should have by the constitution. Just as the left has set asaid the fact the the will of the people is what should make laws not them and what they alone want.
I also seen a list of nations that have Socialized Health-care. Of them almost every one is looking at it being a burden they can not keep up. I work in Health care, and I can tell you that what I see them doing to be ready for Obummer care is not a good thing. Most of the Docs, are looking to relocate in a nation that does not have government controlled health care. It has nothing to with their pay, they are looking to find a place they can do some good. The elderly in this nation will be forced out long term care and sent home, this is not a good thing. You see the care they get in long turm care is meant to give them a little more time on this earth. I work in long term care, and most of the family members I talk with simply can not give the care that is needed. Obummercare does have some good points don't get me wrong. Nothing in this world is with out them. Yet if you look at the cuts that will be made in medicare and medacade just to pay for all the people that will be added to them, it simply adds up to less coverage, and lower quality of care. If any thinks this is wrong, ask any one that lives in Canada why they would rather come to the USA for care.
Now lets talk about taxes. The only way to ever gt the rich to pay their share is go to a flat tax. this will do many thing for this nation. First off every one will be paying in the same. If you make 100 that year you would pay in 15. (assuming a 15% flat tax) if you make a mil you pay in 150,000, I think the math is right any how. Next, we would not have to pay out what ever it is to keep IRS working. Big savings there I bet. Cap and Tax will only drive this nation further into debt. How? With the passing of that bill you will see your house hold bills double if not more. If their is less disposable cash, then we don't spend as much. if we don't spend, we also do not produce. You see if it cost more to make, then we have one of 2 things happen. Bissness closes, we import more to make up for that. Or they move over seas. Ether way jobs are lost. With that comes less income, and more unemployment going out.
Sorry for all the misspelled words, I am dyslexic and my spell check does not work on this sight for some reason. It was earlier.
Ok got it working, Hope I fixed all the misspelled words, if not forgive me.
Welcome to the site and to this thread. It's nice to have some input from someone who's actually in the healthcare business and to get their thoughts on what Obummercare will do. Is that what people in healthcare are calling it? lol Hopefully it will be repealed somehow, someway before it becomes yet another monstrous cancer on our nation that we can't get rid of like Social Security which will run out of money in 2037. How much further into debt will we go to fix that?
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Welcome to the site and to this thread. It's nice to have some input from someone who's actually in the healthcare business and to get their thoughts on what Obummercare will do. Is that what people in healthcare are calling it? lol Hopefully it will be repealed somehow, someway before it becomes yet another monstrous cancer on our nation that we can't get rid of like Social Security which will run out of money in 2037. How much further into debt will we go to fix that?
Once again, no one is entitled to her or his own facts.

Social Security, according to the Congressional Budget Office, currently has enough to pay 100% of claims until 2037, and then only 80% of claims for decades after that. You should pay attention to the whole story, not just the part that is told TO YOU so you will think a certain way.

A simple change in the rate people pay into Social Security -- i.e., make those who make a $1 million a year pay more than those who make $175,000 a year, and only a bit more -- will keep the system solvent at 100% for a much, much longer time. But that fix doesn't fit into the narrative of those who want to turn Social Security over to Wall Street speculators.
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Old 01-28-2011
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What freaks me out is how the Egyptian government pretty much pulled the plug on the internet, to keep people from twittering and blackberrying and stuff.....imagine if that happens here.
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What freaks me out is how the Egyptian government pretty much pulled the plug on the internet, to keep people from twittering and blackberrying and stuff.....imagine if that happens here.
When the government is threatened, they(the government) will do anything to protect themselves from the public or any other threat(9/11, Homeland security).
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When the government is threatened, they(the government) will do anything to protect themselves from the public or any other threat(9/11, Homeland security).
Homeland security is a threat....plus 9-11 is now just an excuse to do ANYTHING that takes away people's rights in the name of security. And We are the government's boss, we are not there servants...as shocking as that sounds.

And when a government does that, it already shows the problem is with the government. I'm all for what the Egyptian people are doing.
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What freaks me out is how the Egyptian government pretty much pulled the plug on the internet, to keep people from twittering and blackberrying and stuff.....imagine if that happens here.
I will post a response to this in the thread "There Goes the Internet".
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What freaks me out is how the Egyptian government pretty much pulled the plug on the internet, to keep people from twittering and blackberrying and stuff.....imagine if that happens here.
Same thing as what happens anywhere that that happens... The situation escalates as suddenly millions more people who were not angry enough to go out on the streets suddenly get the final shove over the edge.

A media blackout is pretty much the worst thing a government cos do, it's a sign of desperation and defeat, and it's the biggest incitement to people to take to the streets.

What would get your attention more? seeing riots on the TV news or the tv suddenly shutting down? When the internet suddenly turns off, it is basicly the government saying, 'every rumour you just heard about our collapse is true'. It's a pure gift to all protesters.
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Old 01-29-2011
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Welcome to the site and to this thread. It's nice to have some input from someone who's actually in the healthcare business and to get their thoughts on what Obummercare will do. Is that what people in healthcare are calling it? lol Hopefully it will be repealed somehow, someway before it becomes yet another monstrous cancer on our nation that we can't get rid of like Social Security which will run out of money in 2037. How much further into debt will we go to fix that?
Around here yes every one calls it Obumercare. If a person had the time to hit on the more than 2000 pages of the bill they would soon find out why. The bill was so bad that any one that had the opportunity to vote to remove them self from having to take part in did so.
As you said about S.S. going bankrupt, this bill was pasted with the idea that if they tax pharmaceutical company's, Insurances company's, and hospitals, high enough they can pay for it. Not stopping to think this will drive up the cost, so it would cost even more to pay for it. On top of driving up the cost of insurance, they want to fin us for not having it. My bad they call it a tax. Now the large corporations did the math. They are going to drop all insurance from the benefits package, and pay the fin. They can see a savings of over 2mil a year. So we now have folks with insurance now, that will end up on the obumer plain. So once more the cost goes up. If I may use the words of one doctor, " This not the Obumer plain, it is the ho shit did not see that coming obumer plain. "
Now what most don't stop to look at is the cuts in coverage for teh elderly and the poor. Long term care will become a thing of the past, and so on as I posted before. This will end up with total government control of health care. They can even run a used car lot. I mean come on, the bad move they made with cash for clunkers, that still has not been paid for.
As for the remark I seen about how I would feel if my IQ test was placed beside Obmer's. Well not that bad I don't think. I may be dyslexic, and that enpeads my ability to get my thoughts from my head to my fingers, or find the right word in a spell check, but it in no way lowers my IQ. In fact it has forced me rely on comincents over book cents. Find a way to masher that and I know Obumer would be the one looking silly.

Last edited by Rainrider; 01-29-2011 at 03:57 PM. Reason: seen some words missing. I really to read first then post
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Old 01-28-2011
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...If any thinks this is wrong, ask any one that lives in Canada why they would rather come to the USA for care...
I am a Canadian, as indicated by my location in every post that I make. You never talked to me so right off your statement is false because I am more than satisfied with the quality of healthcare that I receive here. I can choose my own doctor, there is no cost to me for any visits to my doctor, I don't have to worry about getting rejected by an insurance company, I don't have to fill out forms for any treatment, everything that is available in the US is available here, and most importantly if I should ever be hospitalized I will not have to sell my house and all my possessions just to pay medical bills.

There are some people that do go to the US because they complain about wait times for some procedures, but I've never had to wait long for any medical procedure. One must also realize that Canada is the second largest country in the world and yet the population of the whole country is less than California. It's not easy to provide all services to people all over such a large country, but it does happen.

So I suggest you don't make such generalizations unless you know your facts and then be more specific.
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