Do You Guys Really Care???

[GroobyKrissy]

So, I've been reading the thread about which is the best paysite to join and quite honestly, I'm a bit taken aback at all the subscribers to the 'FREE is BEST' people out there. So, although this may make me the most unpopular person on the board, I have to ask... Do you guys give a shit?

Seriously... over and over... 'I love this girl' 'I love that girl'...

Do you realize what it does to a site when someone posts free content, and let me clarify here, I'm talking whole or majority of picture sets and videos here, not just the occasional admirer reposting a few pictures here and there?

Patronizing places which encourage 'FREE' content is not cool. I speak as a site owner myself. It's been said that there is nothing free in this world and it's true. In cases like this, it is often the site owner who is incurring the loss in revenue and the repercussions can be mild to downright devastating.

I always find it odd that people who would never walk into a grocery store and just take what they want and walk out have absolutely no problem at all downloading obviously pirated content from a website.

People who post such stuff often justify it by, 'oh, I'm actually helping the site by giving them free publicity.' Stupid logic. Obviously, no one is going to join a site if they can get the content for free.

I can tell you from personal experience... when you take content from a solo site, or patronize places which encourage this behavior, it is extremely damaging to the site owners. Many independent site owners depend on their sites as their sole source of income... so basically, you're taking directly from their wallet (or purses).

Anyway... without getting longwinded about this... if you really like a particular model or site, the BEST way to show it is to stop stuffing fast food or $4.00 coffee down your mouth for a couple days and pony up the $25.00 to join the site for a month. You're actually HELPING keep the site going then instead of perpetuating a problem.

Sites are expensive to run and much of those expenses you surfers just don't think about... there's hosting fees, credit card fees, VI-- fees (minimum $800 / year here in the US), photography expenses, video expenses, location expenses, and lots more. With solo sites, these expenses eat up a majority of the profit. With larger sites, a lot of memberships go towards paying the models to do shoots (typically between $500 - $1000 OR 17 - 35 memberships).

I'm not whining here... believe me, I have no problem at all when someone posts one or two pictures from my site somewhere... in fact, it's kind of flattering. But, when I find whole galleries or video posted somewhere it really jades me. You may think it doesn't hurt the sites but it does... even the big sites feel it... in fact, more and more of them are taking legal action... if you're a re-poster of stolen content... read this:

http://www.wp-board.com/

Anyway... so back to my original question... Do you guys REALLY care about the models you say you love so much?

If your answer is yes, then find a good site, join it for a month, and help support the industry. If your answer is no, then by all means, keep stealing and hurting the sites that provide you the material that fuels your pleasure (that's sarcasm btw... I'd prefer you just stop). Most quality sites have PLENTY of free content on their official blogs, forums, or etc. Find it and enjoy it there instead of getting it from a stolen content board or torrent site.

[rockabilly]

I care ... and for what it's worth i have never downloaded any vids illegally.

[violet lightning]

You make a great point, and you make it clearly.
I for one, really do care, and have had several memberships to several sites over the years. I also don't download or purchase anything that I know is pirated. If everyone did that, then business would collapse, and the pirates would ruin everything for everyone.
I also post a few favorites from each set, not the whole set.

Like I said, good post, thought provoking and very pertinent to this forum and its members.
Support your favorites, guys and gals! :D

[GroobyKrissy]

Thanks Rockabilly and Violet

I've want to clarify in response to a couple messages I've received... I do NOT consider THIS board a 'stolen content' board. If I did, I wouldn't be here... I'd be emailing all the site owners of the content here and trying to shut the board down (and yes... it can be done).

From what I've seen there are some excellent people here and true admirers of us girls (and some awesome girls as well). I wrote my thread because I believe that some admirers just honestly don't realize what they're doing to the sites themselves when they start posting vast amounts of content without consent. Just some food for thought.

I am ALL for boards like this where people can come together and share in an environment that is welcoming and open. Sometimes picture threads get a little out of hand with near whole galleries posted but usually not by one single person.

What I find distasteful is when people post links to or condone the downloading of illegally (yes, stealing AND knowingly downloading stolen copyrighted material IS illegal) posted material. This typically is about movies since most content producers know their pictures will find their way to the internet sooner or later in some form or another. And, movies are typically what people really join a site to see.

This is a great board and the owners / operators have, for the most part, done an awesome job in making sure the threads stay within the acceptable limits of content reposting. Most site owners are OK with a few (usually 5 or so) pictures being posted and are thankful for the free publicity. Once you start posting 10, 20, 30 pictures from one set though... you're basically giving away their content... NOT COOL.

Anyway... I hope that help clarify my previous post. Great Board and I love getting you guys little Shemale gems from Grooby when I can and from my site as well where appropriate

Thanks for the PM's and emails... interesting points of view although I don't agree with all of them... nice when people can debate issues without resorting to rudeness!

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by GroobyKrissy

So, I've been reading the thread about which is the best paysite to join and quite honestly, I'm a bit taken aback at all the subscribers to the 'FREE is BEST' people out there. So, although this may make me the most unpopular person on the board, I have to ask... Do you guys give a shit?

Seriously... over and over... 'I love this girl' 'I love that girl'...

Do you realize what it does to a site when someone posts free content, and let me clarify here, I'm talking whole or majority of picture sets and videos here, not just the occasional admirer reposting a few pictures here and there?

Patronizing places which encourage 'FREE' content is not cool. I speak as a site owner myself. It's been said that there is nothing free in this world and it's true. In cases like this, it is often the site owner who is incurring the loss in revenue and the repercussions can be mild to downright devastating.

I always find it odd that people who would never walk into a grocery store and just take what they want and walk out have absolutely no problem at all downloading obviously pirated content from a website.

People who post such stuff often justify it by, 'oh, I'm actually helping the site by giving them free publicity.' Stupid logic. Obviously, no one is going to join a site if they can get the content for free.

I can tell you from personal experience... when you take content from a solo site, or patronize places which encourage this behavior, it is extremely damaging to the site owners. Many independent site owners depend on their sites as their sole source of income... so basically, you're taking directly from their wallet (or purses).

Anyway... without getting longwinded about this... if you really like a particular model or site, the BEST way to show it is to stop stuffing fast food or $4.00 coffee down your mouth for a couple days and pony up the $25.00 to join the site for a month. You're actually HELPING keep the site going then instead of perpetuating a problem.

Sites are expensive to run and much of those expenses you surfers just don't think about... there's hosting fees, credit card fees, VI-- fees (minimum $800 / year here in the US), photography expenses, video expenses, location expenses, and lots more. With solo sites, these expenses eat up a majority of the profit. With larger sites, a lot of memberships go towards paying the models to do shoots (typically between $500 - $1000 OR 17 - 35 memberships).

I'm not whining here... believe me, I have no problem at all when someone posts one or two pictures from my site somewhere... in fact, it's kind of flattering. But, when I find whole galleries or video posted somewhere it really jades me. You may think it doesn't hurt the sites but it does... even the big sites feel it... in fact, more and more of them are taking legal action... if you're a re-poster of stolen content... read this:

http://www.wp-board.com/

Anyway... so back to my original question... Do you guys REALLY care about the models you say you love so much?

If your answer is yes, then find a good site, join it for a month, and help support the industry. If your answer is no, then by all means, keep stealing and hurting the sites that provide you the material that fuels your pleasure (that's sarcasm btw... I'd prefer you just stop). Most quality sites have PLENTY of free content on their official blogs, forums, or etc. Find it and enjoy it there instead of getting it from a stolen content board or torrent site.

Your point is valid... but do I care about porn-sites? Yes, to the extend that they pay the girls their due (which most of them do not). Do I otherwise care about you? No. And the real question is, do YOU care about the girls you underpay? Nah... not really, right? You sanctimonious ass...

If you guys truly wished to be part of an effort to help trans*girls I would respect you, but in the end you don't. You pay the girls a small one-time fee and keep posting their images with absolutely no concern for even totally normal copyright-laws. Most of you are a bunch of mafia bad boys/girls (of what ever gender) and you are the worst thiefs of all, because you never pay the ladies their amount due.

So PLEASE, stop the self-righteous crap and take a look at the man in the mirror, lady!

Your tears are crocodile's tears coming from a guy who hates the fact that you get copied. But what is YOUR contribution, baby? Paying a little tranny 50 USD for a photo shoot and then "forgetting to tell her, when her royalties are due!"

You porn-site-mafias are a bunch of vampires that have no place here. You do NOONE any good, you hypocritical SOB!

So get the FUCK outta here, you anti-social, anti-trans bastard... (did I forget to say) please... :-)

Now I'm getting a bit upset again... oh well...

But NO peace with the porn-mafia...

H

[GroobyKrissy]

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

Your point is valid... but do I care about porn-sites? Yes, to the extend that they pay the girls their due (which most of them do not). Do I otherwise care about you? No. And the real question is, do YOU care about the girls you underpay? Nah... not really, right? You sanctimonious ass...

If you guys truly wished to be part of an effort to help trans*girls I would respect you, but in the end you don't. You pay the girls a small one-time fee and keep posting their images with absolutely no concern for even totally normal copyright-laws. Most of you are a bunch of mafia bad boys/girls (of what ever gender) and you are the worst thiefs of all, because you never pay the ladies their amount due.

So PLEASE, stop the self-righteous crap and take a look at the man in the mirror, lady!

Your tears are crocodile's tears coming from a guy who hates the fact that you get copied. But what is YOUR contribution, baby? Paying a little tranny 50 USD for a photo shoot and then "forgetting to tell her, when her royalties are due!"

You porn-site-mafias are a bunch of vampires that have no place here. You do NOONE any good, you hypocritical SOB!

So get the FUCK outta here, you anti-social, anti-trans bastard... (did I forget to say) please... :-)

Now I'm getting a bit upset again... oh well...

But NO peace with the porn-mafia...

H

You know... you should really do some homework before you make accusations. I do not pay anyone... I run a SOLO site.

Second... you obviously, don't know what in the world you're talking about or how the porn community works. Content producers OWN the rights to reproduce the work as much as they'd like. Models sign over this right when they agree to do a shoot. And... most are VERY happy with the wages they're paid here in the US (I can't speak for overseas). Where else can you make 500-700 dollars (not 50) for what amounts to two or three hours work?

Anyway... I'm not going to stoop to your level of rudeness except to say, educate yourself a little more before you open your big mouth and look like a complete fool.

And... by the way... I contribute PLENTY. I donate 5% of all (gross) proceeds from my site to local charitable organizations such as SOLV, The Access Fund, and Until There's A Cure. What do you do?

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by GroobyKrissy

You know... you should really do some homework before you make accusations. I do not pay anyone... I run a SOLO site.

Second... you obviously, don't know what in the world you're talking about or how the porn community works. Content producers OWN the rights to reproduce the work as much as they'd like. Models sign over this right when they agree to do a shoot. And... most are VERY happy with the wages they're paid here in the US (I can't speak for overseas). Where else can you make 500-700 dollars (not 50) for what amounts to two or three hours work?

Anyway... I'm not going to stoop to your level of rudeness except to say, educate yourself a little more before you open your big mouth and look like a complete fool.

And... by the way... I contribute PLENTY. I donate 5% of all (gross) proceeds from my site to local charitable organizations such as SOLV, The Access Fund, and Until There's A Cure. What do you do?

My level of rudeness? Honey, you ain't seen nothing yet...

I'm impressed, baby! I guess your answer makes my point... and I'm sure you're totally proud of yourself and (obviously and conveniently) completely numb to any suggestions. Let's not bring levels of education into this, for your sake, honey... ;-)

You're not my kind of girl, darling... but spare yourself the humiliation of accusing me (of all) to be needing to do my homework, sweetheart... need I say more?

But best of Danish luck on your business venture... I'm sure you're a nice guy but you just completely forgot the whole point, dear. And the whole point is that being a trans*woman is NOT being helped any further by ppl like you who use them for pornographic futures. In spite of your fabulous payment program...

View this in a broader sense.

And no matter how much you claim to pay them, you don't pay them enough. You just wash your hands, baby.

Shame on you!

However, though I do not approve of underpayment of models, I may have done you unjustice. If that's the case, then I appologize.

My point remains the welfare of transsexual women - and the Lord knows that they need it!

H

[GroobyKrissy]

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

My level of rudeness? Honey, you ain't seen nothing yet...

I'm impressed, baby! I guess your answer makes my point... and I'm sure you're totally proud of yourself and (obviously and conveniently) completely numb to any suggestions. Let's not bring levels of education into this, for your sake, honey... ;-)

You're not my kind of girl, darling... but spare yourself the humiliation of accusing me (of all) to be needing to do my homework, sweetheart... need I say more?

But best of Danish luck on your business venture... I'm sure you're a nice guy but you just completely forgot the whole point, dear. And the whole point is that being a trans*woman is NOT being helped any further by ppl like you who use them for pornographic futures. In spite of your fabulous payment program...

View this in a broader sense.

And no matter how much you claim to pay them, you don't pay them enough. You just wash your hands, baby.

Shame on you!

However, though I do not approve of underpayment of models, I may have done you unjustice. If that's the case, then I appologize.

My point remains the welfare of transsexual women - and the Lord knows that they need it!

H

Well... I guess you don't understand the word 'SOLO' so I'll spell it out for you. There are no other models on my site other than myself that require payment. That is what I meant when I said I don't pay anyone and I don't USE anyone for pornographic purposes, except me, and that's my choice.

And, hey, I'm not afraid to bring levels of education into this. I'm quite well educated thank you very much. I studied law at Willamette, majored in Forensic Psychology, and graduated with honors. How about you?

I don't 'claim.' Unlike you, I do know what I'm talking about... I work in the industry. Do you? Because I'm starting to get the impression that you're all worked up because you probably run one of those 'FREE' sites out there that I'm talking about. So, I'll let you answer your own accusation...

How are you helping the 'trans*women' out there you claim to care about so much? Quite honestly, I doubt you are. If you were actually so concerned, you'd at least know that 'trans*women' is NOT the proper term to be used in describing a 'Transgendered' individual. If you're main concern is helping 'transsexual women' then I guess you have a foundation or non-profit organization for helping genetically born females who feel as if they are males? Because, if that's your point... you're on the wrong Board. But, again, I think it's clear that you don't even understand the terms you're using.

Anyway, although I expected some backlash from this thread, I didn't mean for this to turn into this back and forth drama. So, I apologize to the rest of you all for having to read this. Kind of entertaining though to watch someone fly off the handle who doesn't know what he's talking about though.

AND PS... let's just ask...

Any girls out there mind making $500-$700 for a 2-3 hour photo / video shoot? Would you think that you were being taking advantage of and not being paid fairly? Yeah... I didn't think so...

[Jenae LaTorque]

Like most disagreements, each side here has some validity.

This is not the only place where copyright concerns are a point of contention. You all are aware that there are many sites where pirated movies, music, pictures, etc. are available within hours after release; sometimes even before. There is no doubt in my mind that such activity is dishonest, even if the theft is simply that of a stream of electronic data.

As for Hank's contention; yes, I am sure that many Tgirls are exploited, but........ that is the way of business.......and life! Since the dawn of time, life has been a struggle for ascendancy and there has always been the screwers and screwees. That is written in the genetic code of life. Legal laws enacted by mankind often seem to go against the laws of Nature. The laws of man are usually designed to advance the welfare of the many, while Nature's laws are to promote the survival of the fittest.

So, where is the Tgirl-Sexworker Union? If they could organize and follow the path blazed by other unions, they might have a chance. Til then, they can only speak to our conscience as Krissy does here. Or....

What if a very nasty virus was embedded in each picture or other form of media that would remain dormant as long as the proper code was used in conjunction with the use of the data. Pirate surprise!!!

[Jenae LaTorque]

I took a look at Krissy's blog and would encourage others to do so. To be honest, forget the pictures. Read the thoughts, that is where the gold is. I know that I put her in my list of favorites.

[seanchai]

Hankhavealock, your a complete idiot and a complete bigot.

You have no idea what we pay the models which is a hell of a lot more thamn $50 and have worked with many models, to increase their business, their own websites and if they've had a desire to work in this business, given them direction to other quality producers.
There is no such thing as "royalty" payments in any online adult sites, videos or magazines, so wherever you've gotten that idea from, your completely misinformed ... and if that was the system, then we certainly would not have the budgets to work with as many models as we do now.

Of course, this is a business and as a business it needs to be profitable but we've always tried to do this with keeping as many of the models in profit also, which is why some models have done extremely well working with us.

Use whatever excuse you might want to show stolen content ... but showing that, is putting less money into the models pockets ... period.

You coarse attempt at humor in constantly referring to Krissy as "he" where she has presented herself on a "trans" forum as a female, further proves what a prick you must be and what issues you must have with your own identity.

seanchai

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by seanchai

Hankhavealock, your a complete idiot and a complete bigot.

You have no idea what we pay the models which is a hell of a lot more thamn $50 and have worked with many models, to increase their business, their own websites and if they've had a desire to work in this business, given them direction to other quality producers.
There is no such thing as "royalty" payments in any online adult sites, videos or magazines, so wherever you've gotten that idea from, your completely misinformed ... and if that was the system, then we certainly would not have the budgets to work with as many models as we do now.

Of course, this is a business and as a business it needs to be profitable but we've always tried to do this with keeping as many of the models in profit also, which is why some models have done extremely well working with us.

Use whatever excuse you might want to show stolen content ... but showing that, is putting less money into the models pockets ... period.

You coarse attempt at humor in constantly referring to Krissy as "he" where she has presented herself on a "trans" forum as a female, further proves what a prick you must be and what issues you must have with your own identity.

seanchai

Ah, ur an "entrepreneur" too... good for you! And I'm generally SO touched by all the care you deep down inside share for the ladies... I'm sure that's what motivates you all! All you jolly folks of the adult industry.

And btw, why do you think that such a thing as royalties is not "normal" in the porn-industry? Because the industry is being run by the BoyScouts?

Glad I was succesful in stepping u over ur big toes! But how could I have missed anyway?

H

[Bionca]

Hank,

I understand where your heart is. The sex industry has a tendency to chew girls up and spit them out. The fact that for many trans women sex work is all the work they can get is a problem. The fact that this places trans women in vulnerable positions particularly if they are doing it for survival.

HOWEVER - I know plenty of gals who would have been in serious shit had it not been for escort work. I also know a couple gals who actively choose to work in escorting and porn because the money is decent if you can manage it (it's like any freelance job the money is there or it isn't).

Are the people involved in the porn industry saints? Nope. Do they try to pay as little as they can to maximize profits? yup. Do they pay just enough to attract talent? yes. Do they perpetuate images of trans women that are unrealistic? hell yes.

Also, as far as I know, porn companies aren't exactly kidnapping women to work for them. They have women who are choosing to do this because they weighed the risks and the rewards. To say that a woman who has the presence of mind to transition is suddenly a poor dupe for the big bad porn industry seems a stretch.

You know I'm pretty luke warm about porn. However, my objections are with the guys who can only function with a trans woman as an exotic fetish. My problems are not with the models or the people who produce the content. My only issue there is that I think they play up the idea that Trans women "trick" men into sex - we know too well how that gets played in trials for our murdered sisters.

Again, porn has problems and there are valid reasons to criticize. But the industry itself and the people working in it are just folks trying to survive.

[Bionca]

Also, as a woman who has had her photos lifted and used to advertise escorts - yeah stealing peoples images and content is pretty messed up. Seriously, most porn production companies are not exactly rolling in cash and surely the models can't afford to lose money.

[seanchai]

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

Ah, ur an "entrepreneur" too... good for you! And I'm generally SO touched by all the care you deep down inside share for the ladies... I'm sure that's what motivates you all! All you jolly folks of the adult industry.

And btw, why do you think that such a thing as royalties is not "normal" in the porn-industry? Because the industry is being run by the BoyScouts?

Glad I was succesful in stepping u over ur big toes! But how could I have missed anyway?

H

Happy to see you completely failed to respond with anything but insults.

I run a highly successful business but it's how I run my business that defines me and my company. We run out business profitably and with a good reputation and integrity amongst the models, where new comers or industry pros. We do this by treating them fairly, professionally and honestly.

The royalty system couldn't work in the adult industry, the same as many other industry where it doesn't work because the money isn't there. This is why many models decide to open their own websites so they can cash in on their name and their content and have some further control over it.

Why do you think the royalty system should work? Somebody is paid very well for doing a 2-3 hr job and then they "leave the building" why do you think they should be paid extra on top of that, when they're not doing anything extra?

It seems like your issue is with the "adult industry" in general and you seem rather bitter about it all, as I stated, you have underlying issues you need to resolve yourself without accusing the whole adult industry and especially the posters in this topic, or under-handedness. Rather sad, really.


ANY PROSPECTIVE MODELS - PLEASE LOOK AT HTTP://WWW.GROOBY.COM OR EMAIL ME AT ADMIN@GROOBY.COM - ALWAYS LOOKING!

[GroobyKrissy]

Still waiting for an answer about how you 'HELP' the 'trans*women' you seem to care so much about...??

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

Ah, ur an "entrepreneur" too... good for you! And I'm generally SO touched by all the care you deep down inside share for the ladies... I'm sure that's what motivates you all! All you jolly folks of the adult industry.

And btw, why do you think that such a thing as royalties is not "normal" in the porn-industry? Because the industry is being run by the BoyScouts?

Glad I was succesful in stepping u over ur big toes! But how could I have missed anyway?

H

[GroobyKrissy]

Originally Posted by Bionca

Also, as far as I know, porn companies aren't exactly kidnapping women to work for them. They have women who are choosing to do this because they weighed the risks and the rewards. To say that a woman who has the presence of mind to transition is suddenly a poor dupe for the big bad porn industry seems a stretch.

Hi Bionca

Thanks for your thoughts. I read some posts from your blog and it looks like you tackle some pretty hefty issues there... kudos!

I totally agree with this... (and, BTW... I guess I'll just consider this thread hijacked since we're on the topic of exploitation now).

I would make a bold statement and say that if you're in the US and most European countries and are in the Porn Industry, you're either doing it for EXTRA money or to start or further a career. As such, you're making a choice and if you allow yourself to be taken advantage of, then it's on your head to expand your knowledge of business and represent yourself accordingly.

The TS Porn Industry is fairly small and word travels fast. If you keep up with happenings, the recent outcry against the proposed box cover for America's Next Top Tranny 4, featuring Olivia Love is a good example. TS Porn Producers know this and, on the whole, treat their models well or else they're not going to have any models to shoot!

I would go so far to say that generally speaking, exploitation in the TS Porn Industry, here in the US, is pretty few and far between in the true sense of the word. Of course, you'll always get the girl here and there who makes a big ruckus after she's been paid... but, I think you'll find that in a large percentage of those cases, she saw the dollars and never read the Model Release (typically a few pages).

[GroobyKrissy]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

So, where is the Tgirl-Sexworker Union? If they could organize and follow the path blazed by other unions, they might have a chance. Til then, they can only speak to our conscience as Krissy does here. Or....

Hiya Jenae

I actually like this idea but I don't think many Tgirls would support such an organization. One of the major obstacles to this is how catty we Tgirls can be even among ourselves. Let's face the facts, we have a very dysfunctional community and although there are small pockets of 'sisterhood' to be found, on the whole, it's a 'cat eat cat' world out there.

We can't even agree on terms we use to describe ourselves... which, BTW, I've started a thread on in the General Discussion area.

[TS_aficionado]

@GroobyKrissy:

It's hard to agree with you seeing this vicious RIAA (and MPAA) campaign. This maniacal rampage made a lot of people (myself included) rethink the idea of paying for anything at all online, not just music and movies.

[GroobyKrissy]

Originally Posted by TS_aficionado

@GroobyKrissy:

It's hard to agree with you seeing this vicious RIAA (and MPAA) campaign. This maniacal rampage made a lot of people (myself included) rethink the idea of paying for anything at all online, not just music and movies.

Vicious?

I don't think you can compare the TS Industry with the campaigns of the record executives... two completely different industries with VAST differences in property.

However... property rights should be observed and respected in any case. Like I stated earlier, you don't go around stealing gasoline just because you think the price is unfair or you don't walk into a store and steal a suit even though you know it probably cost the store a fraction of the price. You just don't. Why? Maybe because you're scared of prosecution, or being caught, or it's a personal moral decision.

Theft is theft. For some reason, the same person that would never go on a shoplifting spree thinks nothing of downloading an entire site's content and reposting it somewhere else for others to use. That is theft, it is illegal, and people should be prosecuted for it. Many people think that they'll never be caught or if they are, nothing will happen. This is changing rapidly and more and more people are seeing the consequences of their KNOWING actions. Almost all sites record IP Addresses now and local authorities are become more and more helpful in stopping online copyright infringements.

I'm not saying I agree with prosecuting a 15 year old kid who is downloading songs or a mother with children who claims not to have known better BUT... I think you would have a completely different point of view if it was your livelihood that was being whittled away by people stealing and reposting your content.

Are you saying that people shouldn't have the right to protect their copyrighted material?

[seanchai]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

So, where is the Tgirl-Sexworker Union? If they could organize and follow the path blazed by other unions, they might have a chance. Til then, they can only speak to our conscience as Krissy does here. Or....

I've encouraged this a few times ... but the sad fact remains, it would take one emboldened tgirl to put this together and to run it. Most of the models just aren't very good at working together even for something that would benefit them.

[TS_aficionado]

I don't think you can compare the TS Industry with the campaigns of the record executives... two completely different industries with VAST differences in property.

That's true of course, but I was speaking in general since you were too.

property rights should be observed and respected in any case.

That was the case years ago. The age of the internet radically changed the attitudes towards this concept. That's why the music and movie industries are bleeding money: because they could not adapt to this new reality.

you don't walk into a store and steal a suit even though you know it probably cost the store a fraction of the price.

There's a difference. If you steal a suit, it disappears.

the same person that would never go on a shoplifting spree thinks nothing of downloading an entire site's content and reposting it somewhere else for others to use.

On principle, I think that's wrong, especially in the cases of smaller up-and-coming websites. But I'll be honest with you, with WMG pressuring youtube to remove songs, the RIAA's absurd campaign to stop music piracy, which includes them demanding a woman be charged hundreds of thousands of dollars for a few songs, and even US law itself that puts money above humans (5 years for pirating a movie?), the whole idea of copyright has become a grotesque capitalist monster that's devouring people alive.

Many people think that they'll never be caught or if they are, nothing will happen. This is changing rapidly

Actually it isn't. Even the RIAA is almost giving up on those lawsuits and focusing rather on pressuring ISP's to stop piracy. There's simply no use going against this new wave. Not prosecution or anything will stop it. Not even new technologies can do any good, as pirates have found ways to break every single DRM and anti-piracy measure ever conceived. The only way for property owners to survive is to find ways to adapt.

I think you would have a completely different point of view if it was your livelihood that was being whittled away by people stealing and reposting your content.

Personally I think it would be very wrong if someone did that to you. I know you have a website and it seems like an independent startup. Someone copying and pasting your content would be an immoral thing to do IMO and could not be defended. My focus, however, was on mega conglomerates steamrolling average citizens over a few songs.

Are you saying that people shouldn't have the right to protect their copyrighted material?

As is clear by now, I think they do, but not up to the insane level the RIAA is doing.

[GroobyKrissy]

@ TS_aficionado

I'm not going to do a quotation since that would make for one long post...

I don't know... the line has to be drawn somewhere and I think the overwhelming majority of musicians, artists, photographers, videographers, webmasters, content producers, etc. out there would love to see these cases prosecuted more fully. The reality is that there just isn't funding for these crimes which, as a whole, are viewed by law enforcement as 'victimless.' (I was told as much by a Salem, OR detective who I gave the address, IP address and etc. to for someone who had downloaded and reposted a huge collection of videos from my site and refused to check it out).

Now... I totally understand where you've become jaded by prosecutors trying to make 'examples' out of small, rinky dinky cases like the ones you and I mentioned earlier. And, like I said earlier, I don't agree with wanting to put a felony record of theft on some 15 year old's record for downloading songs. But, when it comes to people who run torrents and boards which actively promote content piracy and just laugh at you when you send them an email or letter asking them to remove links... I say, throw the book at them.

I don't see this as a helpless wave of technology which we all have to adapt to. Technology criminals are (for the most part) smart. We have to become smarter. People will always find a way to override safeguards, but, the average porn surfer isn't going to spend the time to learn how to defeat a DRM... because the average porn user is just good ol, blue collar joe blow wanting to get off. I like him. He wants his porn and a few minutes of pleasure. And I want to help him.

The suit doesn't disappear... the costs are still VERY apparent to the store owner. He may have another one in stock but he's still out the cost AND profit for the original. With digital media, the costs are even higher because it is an ongoing crime. Who knows how many people viewing a stolen movie would have joined a site otherwise? It's very difficult to put a price on it.

When I was younger and Napster was the brand new shiny thing... I was the first to jump in line and say, wow... free stuff! How cool! I must have downloaded a ton of music. And, for a long time, I never bought a CD. Then, I started a site and started seeing my content pop up on file-sharing sites. That was the end of my support of Napster and other sites encouraging free content sharing. Don't get me wrong, there are legitimate things going on on some of those sites but I do NOT support illegal content sharing in any way. It hurts me, it hurts the industry, and in the long run, it hurts the legitimate purchasers of the content as sites have to raise prices to make up for lost revenue, just like stores pass on the prices of 'shrinkage' (shoplifting), doctors pass on the prices of insurance, etc.

[charlietwobeans]

Originally Posted by seanchai

Actually for over 12 years we've been offering alternative ways to pay, including sending cash, money orders or cashiers checks directly to us ... I think we are one of the few porn companies to do this.
Take a look at http://www.grooby.com/paybymail.html for discounts!

Just FYI - I also noticed a few non-porn sites taking Amazon credit (which you can get at more than a few places in lieu of cash). I assume this credit can be applied to their lease of Amazon services (E3, etc.), which I think is a pretty interesting way of doing things - creates a whole new thread of an economy, much like Second Life.

As for the original post, sans all the vitriol and ugly back-and-forth, I wanted to apologize to Krissy and to all the other independent providers because I did post advocating only free sites. I was only thinking about the major pay sites when I posted that, and was definitely not thinking about the thousands of independent, creative, intriguing people that spend their days and nights crafting sites like Krissy's and certainly deserve compensation for it.

I, like many, don't have the luxury of privacy so that credit cards can read whatever they want, so the option is not there for me.

On a final note, I don't really get the anger directed toward Krissy and others on their position, so I will leave it alone. Enough has been said already.

[TS_aficionado]

I see what you're saying Krissy. Long story short: I believe it's very wrong if someone did that to you (or any small independent company that really needs the money). But RIAA and MPAA have absolutely no sympathy from me over any losses they incur.

Best of luck with your website.

[hankhavelock]

I've been called an idiot and a bigot... I'm probably both, but one thing I'm not, and that's a hypocrite.

To have porn-producers stand up here with the audacity to ask "whether we care about trans*women" is simply the worst kind of hypocracy I've so far witnessed at this good forum. The most exploitatious multi-dollar business trying to come ahead with a humane face... "If you truly care about trannies, then buy my dirty movies..."

Please... it's like "if you love kids, then become a pedophile..."

Not only is it completely hollow, but it's also the same old story - and the same old gasoline on the branding-fire that trans*women are good for nothing but porn... you porn-kings harm transsexuality more than you realize - not that I have any thoughts that you give a flying fuck...

No, the porn-industry can have its kicks - porn and prostitution are fine, as long as the ladies are in it of their own free will. Anyone here should by now know that I'm a very liberal and broad-minded guy.

But when hypocracy gets institutionalized and made into something mundane, and especially when it's used to bash ppl on their heads, then I react.

If I'm the only one here who can grasp the grotesqueness of this entire thread, then so be it, and then there is, indeed, a rather long way for trans*emancipation. If you all fall on your asses in appreciation of a porn-predator, whos actions are counter-productive to the branding of transsexuality, then I can only cry. But it sure as shit is not gonna stop ME from calling the bluff.

I've read a lot of shit here, but this thread takes the price. To THINK that someone will even DARE to post themselves as caring about transsexuality "if you just buy my sleazy movies" is absolutely unacceptable.

I dunno how many of you good people here actually have a life that includes transsexuality (a minority, for sure), but if you did, then you'd realize the pain and the seriousness of the matter - the pain of constantly being viewed as a sex object... HOT but not worthy of real and deep emotions. A short fuck, sure, but don't tell anyone...

Not least due to a porn industry that has little care for the well-being of anyone but the mob who owns it.

So STOP the bullshit... please! And get a perspective on this!

What I read here hurts me deeply in my heart - and no matter how deeply I may hurt, it's NOTHING compared to the daily transsexual pain.

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Hank

[GroobyKrissy]

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

Please... it's like "if you love kids, then become a pedophile."

I dislike when threads drag on and on for pages but this deserves a response.

This is, quite simply one of the most ignorant and illogical statements I have EVER heard and shows that you have no basic grasp of reality. I think it's clear to ANYONE who reads a statement like that why it's just wrong that I'm not even going to dignify it with a response. Hank, you need help if that is the way you look at life.

So... STILL waiting to hear from you about what YOU do to help the TS community? Funny you should be here on a largely PORN centered board with these strong anti-porn statements. And, please... let's talk hypocrisy. Here you're railing against the industry... can you honestly tell me that you've NEVER looked at one single picture or one single movie from one of these sites you're going off about? If you're intentions here are so 'lily white,' then why haven't you answered the basic question of WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO HELP THE TS COMMUNITY?

Please... your grasp of reality and lack of logic astounds me. You are the WORST kind of hypocrite... the kind that doesn't even know he is one.

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by GroobyKrissy

I dislike when threads drag on and on for pages but this deserves a response.

This is, quite simply one of the most ignorant and illogical statements I have EVER heard and shows that you have no basic grasp of reality. I think it's clear to ANYONE who reads a statement like that why it's just wrong that I'm not even going to dignify it with a response. Hank, you need help if that is the way you look at life.

So... STILL waiting to hear from you about what YOU do to help the TS community? Funny you should be here on a largely PORN centered board with these strong anti-porn statements. And, please... let's talk hypocrisy. Here you're railing against the industry... can you honestly tell me that you've NEVER looked at one single picture or one single movie from one of these sites you're going off about? If you're intentions here are so 'lily white,' then why haven't you answered the basic question of WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO HELP THE TS COMMUNITY?

Please... your grasp of reality and lack of logic astounds me. You are the WORST kind of hypocrite... the kind that doesn't even know he is one.

Whether I've ever enjoyed porn or been with prostitutes is completely beside the point. And what good I've done to the trans*community is equally irrelevant.

YOU were the one who claimed that by PAYING for your trans*porn ppl would HELP the trans*community.

Read back at what I said and try to grasp the deeper meaning - calling me "the WORST hypocrite" is cute and, obviously, unintelligent, because you know Ï ain't. But you fight for your opinion...

I care, and you don't give a shit...

Hank

[GroobyKrissy]

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

Whether I've ever enjoyed porn or been with prostitutes is completely beside the point. And what good I've done to the trans*community is equally irrelevant.

YOU were the one who claimed that by PAYING for your trans*porn ppl would HELP the trans*community.

Read back at what I said and try to grasp the deeper meaning - calling me "the WORST hypocrite" is cute and, obviously, unintelligent, because you know Ï ain't. But you fight for your opinion...

I care, and you don't give a shit...

Hank

It's hard to get a 'deeper meaning' in something as shallow as a petri dish.

It's pretty obvious to me that you see yourself as some 'knight in shining' armor to the TS community. I think any reasonable observer would say you're a complete hypocrite with your admitted usage of prostitutes (which MANY would argue is one of, if not the WORST kind of degradation you can put a person through - [not my personal belief]) (you brought this up, I was going to leave it out) and porn.

It's also obvious that you're unable to have an intelligent and reasonable conversation and I will not be dragged into the name calling and general rudeness you've shown me. Therefore, consider this my last post in response to your posts.

If anyone else has anything to say on the matter, I'll gladly respond, but enough with this completely 'out of touch' conversation.

[hankhavelock]

So apparently I'm shallow as a dinner dish and the worst hypocrite of all because I don't fall over in awe of your "humanistic" and "just buy my porn-stuff" approach to all this... you're too unreal...

[Jenae LaTorque]

Krissy,
While I can sympathize somewhat with your plight, I have to ask: Did you not realize that piracy abounded on the net before you put up your site and bared your throat to the wolves?

While you may deplore the "free" postings of your material, is it not possible that some viewers of those may make their way to your site and join? I do know that free postings of video clips have impelled me to search out the original material for purchase.

While I can't condone piracy of copyrighted material, I can understand the feeling that since the pirated material user wouldn't purchase the material otherwise, then; the seller isn't really out anything. It is not the same as taking the bread from your fellow man's mouth, it is more like the multiplication of the loaves and fishes that a very famous fellow is reputed to have done. Do you suppose the fish sellers and bakers raised (and pardon the expression) "holy hell" about the potential loss of business there? Damn, there is another justification for wrongdoing to be found in the "Book"!
LOL I may have to trap some of my religious friends with that one

Anyway. to get back to the main question as to do I care. Honestly, I would have to say, "No, not much!" If I knew you personally, I might; but I really feel you should expect little sympathy from strangers. From what you have said, you seem to be an intelligent person and should know better. Do I wish you good fortune in overcoming your problems - YES.

Take care honey Jenae

[charlietwobeans]

OK, I just don't get it, so I will make one attempt to seek clarity:

Hank - I don't disagree with your premise if it comes with the qualifier of "exploitive porn producers", but Krissy's main point here was "please don't screw those of us who are making a living on our own, independent of producers, by stealing or illegally posting our stuff".

Transgendered or GG, porn or music, there is a fundamental difference between the big-business labels and the independent artists - their work covers every aspect of the industry, from production to marketing. They are not "just the talent", they are the engine and the brains behind the product.

And Krissy's post came in direct response to what a lot of us had posted - skip paying for the material and just find it on free sites.

While I don't advocate stealing licensed material, I also do little to stop it (shame on me). But by Krissy making this plea, she's put a more human face on the theft because she is directly affected by this - not just her bottom line, but her bottom (and other things)

So I support her in her request to "not get screwed" through theft of licensed material....why is that so hard to get behind?

Maybe she used phraseology that doesn't quite fit the bill, but it didn't send me (or, it seems anyone else but you) spiraling into a fit of rage.

That's all I've got. I hope I haven't fueled the fire - not my intent.

Cheers.

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by charlietwobeans

OK, I just don't get it, so I will make one attempt to seek clarity:

Hank - I don't disagree with your premise if it comes with the qualifier of "exploitive porn producers", but Krissy's main point here was "please don't screw those of us who are making a living on our own, independent of producers, by stealing or illegally posting our stuff".

Transgendered or GG, porn or music, there is a fundamental difference between the big-business labels and the independent artists - their work covers every aspect of the industry, from production to marketing. They are not "just the talent", they are the engine and the brains behind the product.

And Krissy's post came in direct response to what a lot of us had posted - skip paying for the material and just find it on free sites.

While I don't advocate stealing licensed material, I also do little to stop it (shame on me). But by Krissy making this plea, she's put a more human face on the theft because she is directly affected by this - not just her bottom line, but her bottom (and other things)

So I support her in her request to "not get screwed" through theft of licensed material....why is that so hard to get behind?

Maybe she used phraseology that doesn't quite fit the bill, but it didn't send me (or, it seems anyone else but you) spiraling into a fit of rage.

That's all I've got. I hope I haven't fueled the fire - not my intent.

Cheers.

No fires fueled that haven't already almost died out :-) I'm not on a crusade against the porn-industry here. What I'm after is a false claim that it helps trans*women if ppl pay for their porn stuff. That's a false statement.

Surely, piracy is no good, but it's already been stated way up above that the ladies get a once-and-for all payment, and that's it. So piracy hurts the continouos flow of income to the porn-mob. And that has little to do with transsexuality and a genuine care for the ladies' continouos well-being

HYPOCRACY large economy size!

Piracy hurts anyone why markets easily digitally copied products - myself included.

Furthermore, the negative brand-value that transsexuality as a whole gains from porn is immensely large. It cannot be measured in marketing dollars but it can be measured in lost souls... the highest suicide rate among any group, alienation etc. Nasty stuff. And I can assure you that the porn-industry doesn't give a rat's ass about that.

Transsexuals are FREAKS... in the eyes of the whole world including America :-) Weirdos with a woman's mind and a man's body... sad fucks who everybody understands are just pathetic and ugly creatures with no real right to say anything... except ofcourse moaning on command in sleazy videos when they have to endure being screwed by ugly guys...

So I'm sorry, my points hold water, and under no circumstances will I accept the argument that if we buy the movies, everybody will be happy.

And that point has conveniently been left out of the debate - and when I brought it up I was unsurprisingly being accused of being shallow and hypocritical...

I rest my case... make you own judgement.

Hank

[GroobyKrissy]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

Krissy,
While I can sympathize somewhat with your plight, I have to ask: Did you not realize that piracy abounded on the net before you put up your site and bared your throat to the wolves?

While you may deplore the "free" postings of your material, is it not possible that some viewers of those may make their way to your site and join? I do know that free postings of video clips have impelled me to search out the original material for purchase.

While I can't condone piracy of copyrighted material, I can understand the feeling that since the pirated material user wouldn't purchase the material otherwise, then; the seller isn't really out anything. It is not the same as taking the bread from your fellow man's mouth, it is more like the multiplication of the loaves and fishes that a very famous fellow is reputed to have done. Do you suppose the fish sellers and bakers raised (and pardon the expression) "holy hell" about the potential loss of business there? Damn, there is another justification for wrongdoing to be found in the "Book"!
LOL I may have to trap some of my religious friends with that one

Anyway. to get back to the main question as to do I care. Honestly, I would have to say, "No, not much!" If I knew you personally, I might; but I really feel you should expect little sympathy from strangers. From what you have said, you seem to be an intelligent person and should know better. Do I wish you good fortune in overcoming your problems - YES.

Take care honey Jenae

Jenae,

Yes, of course I know that piracy has existed ever since the very first floppy disk rolled of the manufacturing floor. I don't think anywhere will you find me whining and sniveling and saying, 'Poor me.' As any brick and mortar business will tell you, typically, shrinkage is budgeted into the costs of doing business. This is the same with sites that do digital media. I understand business. I've worked as the OM for a fairly well known technology firm for several years before 'striking out on my own.'

There is a HUGE difference between the posting of VIDEO CLIPS (i.e. - usually kept to under 2 minutes) and A WHOLE VIDEO (piracy). Typically, most large websites make video clips available to people who would like to promote their content in an attempt to make money (i.e. - affiliates). That is basically, free advertising for the company and that's a good thing. Normally speaking, these clips are edited to cut out right before the juicy bits... TRAILERS, as it were. And, yes, it is the hope that those people who see these clips will find the origin and join the site (usually, links are provided straight to the site so no 'searching' is necessary).

Now... if a WHOLE VIDEO is posted, and especially on a repeated basis like many of these 'free' sites, OBVIOUSLY, the person is not going to bother joining the site.

So, the statement you made... about the 'seller isn't really out anything.' That is just plain not true. Like I stated earlier, the problem with digital theft is that is it continuous and ongoing. That is why the record moguls try to put high price tags on the cases they decide to prosecute. You cannot prove, and to be fair, disprove how many people would or would not have bought the cd or dvd after downloading a pirated copy... although, reason would stand to suggest that not many would.

Your allegory of the loaves and fishes is way out of context and really not appropriate at all. In that story (sorry for those who take offense to calling it a 'story' but for lack of a better word), the original loaves and fish were GIVEN FREELY (or purchased... it's been a long time since Sunday school) by the original owner(s). The certain speaker you refer to didn't steal it and then multiply it. Any content I reproduce in a PUBLIC area of my site, I realize is going to end up being distributed somewhere else at some point or another... I'm ok with that... it's why it's there. BUT... content INSIDE a PRIVATE area that people are PAYING to access is clearly intended for the enjoyment of that audience alone. It's stated on every single website out there in their TERMS and CONDITIONS section.

I don't expect sympathy from strangers and never once have I asked for it. Instead, I try to reason with people on a logical basis with facts and personal stories. What I am saying is that this 'devil may care' attitude about people stealing content and reposting it is bad for the industry. Your nonchalant attitude is the very thing which I'm appealing to change not because I want your sympathy but because I want and should get your dollars if you want my content.

If I created a website and called it 'Shemale Wallpapers' took all the content you had created and posted here in your 5 star thread, hid behind some anonymous server somewhere, and claimed credit for it... you'd be ok with that? I think not. It's easy to not care (as I did when I started using Napster) when it doesn't affect you... when it does, you'll come around to seeing business from the owner's perspectives.

[GroobyKrissy]

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

So I'm sorry, my points hold water, and under no circumstances will I accept the argument that if we buy the movies, everybody will be happy.

And that point has conveniently been left out of the debate - and when I brought it up I was unsurprisingly being accused of being shallow and hypocritical...

I rest my case... make you own judgement.

So, here I find myself answering you again.

PLEASE... tell me WHERE I said that if you 'buy the movies, everybody will be happy.' ?? I have never stated such a thing or implied that the porn industry is a bed of roses.

And, I'm pretty sure that I've answered you points (the few there besides the namecalling). You on the other hand have not answered a SINGLE point I asked except to call it irrelevant.

I do not need to drag out a dictionary to state that you're being hypocritical in saying you care so much about the TS Community and yet you support the very industry that you're so adamantly opposed to. Let's see...

HANK - HATES the 'damage' that the Porn Industry does to the souls of the models they hire.

HANK - Admittedly uses porn and hires TS prostitutes... probably perpetuating a lifestyle for those whom he hires.

YEP... sounds like hypocrisy to me.

You obviously have some issues with your own sexuality and are alleviating your conscience by displacing your own feelings of guilt on the industry, which you think makes you stand out as a bright beacon in a seedy world. FAIL.

I won't speak for other companies but I don't think it's out of place to say that Grooby Productions has probably donated more time, energy, and dollars in ONE MONTH towards promoting TS rights awareness via blogs, ts message boards, and supporting models who CHOOSE to stay in the industry, than you have in your lifetime.

What's the last letter you wrote to your Congressmen / women about TS rights? I've written five in the last month regarding local issues here in PDX and in Oregon. What are you doing in Indonesia to raise human rights awareness, besides hiring prostitutes (cheap blow I know)?

SO... it is NOT at all irrelevant to ask you HOW you're helping the TS Community that you SEEM to care so much about? How many of those damaged souls are you repairing? How much time and energy are you devoting to making sure those prostitutes you hire are making good life decisions and getting out of a self-perpetuating cycle? Cause if you're doing NOTHING, except railing away on message boards (as I suspect), then you ARE a hypocrite. And by portraying yourself as something otherwise IS shallow.

OK, I tire of arguing with you. This is my final post on the matter in response to you. Others, I'll respond accordingly.

[charlietwobeans]

Originally Posted by GroobyKrissy

...then you ARE a hypocrite....

thank you for spelling it correctly - that had been bothering me for some time but I felt I would be too pedantic to point it out

[Jenae LaTorque]

....be okay with that. I considered that scenario when I posted them. And no, wouldn't bother me a bit. Actually that is not a good compaison as the basic materials I used are already on the net; I just gussied them up and formulated them in a format that was more enjoyable to look at. That is not the same as if someone took my avator and profile pics and used them as adverts for an escort service which is more akin to your problem. The question then should be if this would bother me. Yes, but not unduly as the same holds true there alos. That is just me gussied up and presented in a more enjoyable format, I think LOL

I believe I do understand your case but I really do believe that it does come with the territory, and while you have every right to fight it, I don't have a lot of sympathy for your plight.

I don't think you really caught the nuances of the fishes and loaves analogy. Let's recapture what happened.

Your case. Someone had to pay in the beginning to get the video off of your site did they not? They then multiplied it by making it availible to others with no compensation to you the originator,

Biblical case. Someone had to pay for the origianal loaves and fishes did they not? They then were multiplied and distributed with no compensation to the baker and fisherman who produced the originals.

Can you see where there is little differance between the two scenarios?

[ila]

Originally Posted by charlietwobeans

thank you for spelling it correctly - that had been bothering me for some time but I felt I would be too pedantic to point it out

I can understand and accept spelling mistakes from those whose mother tongue is not English (even though hypocrite has its roots in Greek).

[seanchai]

What an absolute load of bollocks you speak Hank.
I know 100's of happy, secure and confident transwoman - some of whom have worked in the adult industry and many of whom haven't. You can't get past the fact, that working in a adult industry and caring about the people you work with, is not necessarily mutually exclusive and your examples are hypocritical and ill though out.

Your a sad sad case, whose shown his true colours for how he feels about the trans-community by claiming to empathize with these individuals yet at the same time insulting and belittling them.
Very very poor.

[charlietwobeans]

Originally Posted by ila

I can understand and accept spelling mistakes from those whose mother tongue is not English (even though hypocrite has its roots in Greek).

Just a little levity, Ila. No harm intended.

[GroobyKrissy]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

Biblical case. Someone had to pay for the origianal loaves and fishes did they not? They then were multiplied and distributed with no compensation to the baker and fisherman who produced the originals.

Can you see where there is little differance between the two scenarios?

HUGE DIFFERENCE in your allegory. The purchasing of goods (i.e. - loaves and fishes here) is an infinite purchase. That is, the buyor is assuming OWNERSHIP. In the example of DIGITAL MEDIA for a website, AT NO TIME does the purchase of a membership entitle the person TO OWN the media. That is CLEARLY stated in all TERMS and CONDITIONS that I've ever come across. Membership to a paysite allows the user to VIEW and DOWNLOAD the content NOT to distribute it.

I'm a little surprised that I even have to explain that as the difference in your loaves and fishes allegory.

You cannot compare the purchase of a consumable item with an intangible item with intellectual copyright laws protecting it. It is a poor allegory and will break down at the point I'm pointing out.

And, I do think you would mind someone taking your creative endeavors and making money off of it without crediting or compensating you, as much as you say you wouldn't. Obviously, I'm not going to do that, so there's no way to prove my case, but I think if you saw a website pop up with all your works displayed on it and no credit to you at all, I think you'd be emailing the owner. The very fact that you include the thread in your signature and post about it, is enough to show at the very least, you'd like some recognition for your work.

[GroobyKrissy]

Originally Posted by charlietwobeans

thank you for spelling it correctly - that had been bothering me for some time but I felt I would be too pedantic to point it out

LOL... yeah, I had a tough English/Latin teacher in school. At times I get lazy but for the most part, I try to have good spelling and grammar. So, you're welcome

[charlietwobeans]

Originally Posted by GroobyKrissy

LOL... yeah, I had a tough English/Latin teacher in school. At times I get lazy but for the most part, I try to have good spelling and grammar. So, you're welcome

I was taught Latin for 4 years by Sister Frank of the Holy Order of Benedictine Nuns. Lots of knuckle whacking, but I loved that dear old woman, all 4'9" of her.

[GroobyKrissy]

Originally Posted by charlietwobeans

I was taught Latin for 4 years by Sister Frank of the Holy Order of Benedictine Nuns. Lots of knuckle whacking, but I loved that dear old woman, all 4'9" of her.

Ugggg... I hated Latin... she tried to make it fun with Winnie Ille Pu but no go. At the time I was like, why learn a dead language. Now, I'm glad that I did!

[Jenae LaTorque]

[And, I do think you would mind someone taking your creative endeavors and making money off of it without crediting or compensating you, as much as you say you wouldn't. Obviously, I'm not going to do that, so there's no way to prove my case, but I think if you saw a website pop up with all your works displayed on it and no credit to you at all, I think you'd be emailing the owner. The very fact that you include the thread in your signature and post about it, is enough to show at the very least, you'd like some recognition for your work.[/quote]


Maybe I'm just too damn old and jaded because; I honestly wouldn't give a rat's ass about any of that. As I expained in one of my early posts, I composed the pages for my own enjoyment, and it is no skin off my butt to share them. I realize that you feel you are losing financially which of course gives you a differant perspective, but that doesn't give you the right to insinuate that I'm a liar. I said that someone using those pics would not bother me a lot. I did not say that I would be not be upset in a case involving theft of my intellectual property.

I also have no problem seeing that you feel there is a big differance between the two cases in the allegory while I see it as a little differance. The way we feel about each and every thing is colored by the associations our mind makes with that particular thing. The man who nearly drowned in a lake has a differant associations in his mind with it than the man who met his wife and true love while boating on it. So, big differance for you, little differance for me, just a matter of perspective then.

One question you haven't addressed is that concerning the possibility of the pirated video leading someone to your site and your subsequant enrichment. So...?

[GroobyKrissy]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

I also have no problem seeing that you feel there is a big differance between the two cases in the allegory while I see it as a little differance. The way we feel about each and every thing is colored by the associations our mind makes with that particular thing. The man who nearly drowned in a lake has a differant associations in his mind with it than the man who met his wife and true love while boating on it. So, big differance for you, little differance for me, just a matter of perspective then.

One question you haven't addressed is that concerning the possibility of the pirated video leading someone to your site and your subsequant enrichment. So...?

Sorry Jenae...

I didn't mean to insinuate that you're lying...only that you really won't fully understand the point of view we as site owners have since you don't 'market' content.

And, actually, what you said was that you'd be... OK with what I proposed. Which was someone taking your content, marketing it as their own, and selling it. Now I notice you've added the caveat that it wouldn't bother you... a lot. And I tell you... the more you saw the site making money off your content, the more that 'wouldn't bother you... a lot' would turn into 'kill those mother-------.'

But... thanks for the free content... typically, I pay between $40-$80 for a photoset but now I can save that cash and just use your wallpapers for an update. I'm sure lots of other site owners would be more than happy to use this free content as well to add content to their sites, especially since they can market as their own. Wow... my photoshop skills just went into overdrive without one single lesson! Me and the Members of my site thank you very much!

And, I really don't want to start bad blood between the two of us. I respect your opinions and you've been great to converse with. But, let me say... again, your choice of allegory is bad. The guy who drowns in the lake has no opinions on the matter. He's dead and therefore has no perspective. If he were to survive, who knows... it may be his favorite lake and he may still love it. People who have been savagely brutalized by animals still love them. But, that's besides the point...to answer your question...

THE HARM that is done with a whole video being illegally posted FAR outweighs the cost benefits of the VERY FEW who will join a site after viewing it. I don't think there is ANY site owner who would deny that. Find me one and I'll either show you someone who has no financial investment into the site or has a very poorly run business record, i.e. - he's not paying taxes and etc... which, btw... I do. I run a legitimate business. Registered. Pay taxes. Pay local taxes. Do my civic duties. Anyway...

In THAT case, you allegory would be good. A bakery may as well give out free loaves of bread in the hopes that someone will like it enough to come back and buy one. Not in a million years. There will be the one or two out of a thousand who have a moral inclination to do so but the VAST and OVERWHELMING majority would definitely not. It's human nature. If you see FREE on one site and $10.00 on the other for the same item... what are you going to choose.

In the case of torrent sites, if someone doesn't find the content he is looking for, he'll most likely keep searching the site until he does... NOT go directly to the site where the content originated. People who download content illegally from a site often have other consequences for the site owner that are hard to quantify. They usually use some sort of BOT to download multiple videos at once which kills bandwidth and can render the site unusable for other members. Those members in turn get frustrated and quit their memberships. Thus, they are not only taking content with the intention of deliberately spreading it, they are also cost the site other members who would have stayed. And yes, this IS from personal and direct experience. Most sites now implement some sort of program that will defeat multiple downloads at one time for this very purpose but many smaller sites simply can not afford to implement these programs.

C'mon.. let's be realistic. You're trying to justify something you don't really care that much about because it doesn't affect you. It affects me personally and I have a stake in it.

All I'm saying at the start of this whole thread is that if you claim to really enjoy a particular model or site, join it for a month and help support the industry instead of getting your rocks off for free on someone else's dime.

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by GroobyKrissy

So, here I find myself answering you again.

PLEASE... tell me WHERE I said that if you 'buy the movies, everybody will be happy.' ?? I have never stated such a thing or implied that the porn industry is a bed of roses.

And, I'm pretty sure that I've answered you points (the few there besides the namecalling). You on the other hand have not answered a SINGLE point I asked except to call it irrelevant.

I do not need to drag out a dictionary to state that you're being hypocritical in saying you care so much about the TS Community and yet you support the very industry that you're so adamantly opposed to. Let's see...

HANK - HATES the 'damage' that the Porn Industry does to the souls of the models they hire.

HANK - Admittedly uses porn and hires TS prostitutes... probably perpetuating a lifestyle for those whom he hires.

YEP... sounds like hypocrisy to me.

You obviously have some issues with your own sexuality and are alleviating your conscience by displacing your own feelings of guilt on the industry, which you think makes you stand out as a bright beacon in a seedy world. FAIL.

I won't speak for other companies but I don't think it's out of place to say that Grooby Productions has probably donated more time, energy, and dollars in ONE MONTH towards promoting TS rights awareness via blogs, ts message boards, and supporting models who CHOOSE to stay in the industry, than you have in your lifetime.

What's the last letter you wrote to your Congressmen / women about TS rights? I've written five in the last month regarding local issues here in PDX and in Oregon. What are you doing in Indonesia to raise human rights awareness, besides hiring prostitutes (cheap blow I know)?

SO... it is NOT at all irrelevant to ask you HOW you're helping the TS Community that you SEEM to care so much about? How many of those damaged souls are you repairing? How much time and energy are you devoting to making sure those prostitutes you hire are making good life decisions and getting out of a self-perpetuating cycle? Cause if you're doing NOTHING, except railing away on message boards (as I suspect), then you ARE a hypocrite. And by portraying yourself as something otherwise IS shallow.

OK, I tire of arguing with you. This is my final post on the matter in response to you. Others, I'll respond accordingly.

Krissy, I already rested my case, and you and I will never be able to agree on these matters. So I will not comment on your current post here.

If you feel that I went after you personally, then I do apologize - it was your concept and not your person I was after.

I'm sure you're a nice person and that we under different circumstances could have been good friends.

So be it.

Peace!

Hank

[Mandy]

Piracy results in an overall depression of wages and earnings for models, since the producers will try and maintain their profit margins at all costs. This ends up shutting down projects run by Trans women and sending models to a handful of companies that are big enough that they can continue operating regardless of piracy. Arguably, since it is admitted that TS rely to a heavy extent on the sex trade for basic survival, this is bad for the TS community. Whats more, because there are so few companies that are big enough to earn a profit TS are forced to work without much bargaining power regarding wages.

[Mandy]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

One question you haven't addressed is that concerning the possibility of the pirated video leading someone to your site and your subsequent enrichment. So...?

I'm sure there are a few people who like to sample free porn before purchasing it, but it just doesn't offset the number of people who happily bust a nut and then download something free the next time they get a craving for trannyporn.

I am pessimistic about it all though, seems like trying to stop a flood with an umbrella.

And I admit to watching free porn to check out models I'm interested in (so I'm guilty as charged).

[smooth]

no offense. but porn and naked models make a lot of money it seems. most i have seen seem to be doing ok on the money side of things. let me just put it like this...take it as you may you opened this can of worms. I HAVE NEVER PAID TO SEE ANOTHER PERSON NAKED AND I NEVER WILL!! would you like to buy some nude pictures of me. porn also has its drawbacks. indians started trade years before we were born and now its a crime because it is electric? get out of town.