Do You Guys Really Care???

[GroobyKrissy]

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

My level of rudeness? Honey, you ain't seen nothing yet...

I'm impressed, baby! I guess your answer makes my point... and I'm sure you're totally proud of yourself and (obviously and conveniently) completely numb to any suggestions. Let's not bring levels of education into this, for your sake, honey... ;-)

You're not my kind of girl, darling... but spare yourself the humiliation of accusing me (of all) to be needing to do my homework, sweetheart... need I say more?

But best of Danish luck on your business venture... I'm sure you're a nice guy but you just completely forgot the whole point, dear. And the whole point is that being a trans*woman is NOT being helped any further by ppl like you who use them for pornographic futures. In spite of your fabulous payment program...

View this in a broader sense.

And no matter how much you claim to pay them, you don't pay them enough. You just wash your hands, baby.

Shame on you!

However, though I do not approve of underpayment of models, I may have done you unjustice. If that's the case, then I appologize.

My point remains the welfare of transsexual women - and the Lord knows that they need it!

H

Well... I guess you don't understand the word 'SOLO' so I'll spell it out for you. There are no other models on my site other than myself that require payment. That is what I meant when I said I don't pay anyone and I don't USE anyone for pornographic purposes, except me, and that's my choice.

And, hey, I'm not afraid to bring levels of education into this. I'm quite well educated thank you very much. I studied law at Willamette, majored in Forensic Psychology, and graduated with honors. How about you?

I don't 'claim.' Unlike you, I do know what I'm talking about... I work in the industry. Do you? Because I'm starting to get the impression that you're all worked up because you probably run one of those 'FREE' sites out there that I'm talking about. So, I'll let you answer your own accusation...

How are you helping the 'trans*women' out there you claim to care about so much? Quite honestly, I doubt you are. If you were actually so concerned, you'd at least know that 'trans*women' is NOT the proper term to be used in describing a 'Transgendered' individual. If you're main concern is helping 'transsexual women' then I guess you have a foundation or non-profit organization for helping genetically born females who feel as if they are males? Because, if that's your point... you're on the wrong Board. But, again, I think it's clear that you don't even understand the terms you're using.

Anyway, although I expected some backlash from this thread, I didn't mean for this to turn into this back and forth drama. So, I apologize to the rest of you all for having to read this. Kind of entertaining though to watch someone fly off the handle who doesn't know what he's talking about though.

AND PS... let's just ask...

Any girls out there mind making $500-$700 for a 2-3 hour photo / video shoot? Would you think that you were being taking advantage of and not being paid fairly? Yeah... I didn't think so...

[Jenae LaTorque]

Like most disagreements, each side here has some validity.

This is not the only place where copyright concerns are a point of contention. You all are aware that there are many sites where pirated movies, music, pictures, etc. are available within hours after release; sometimes even before. There is no doubt in my mind that such activity is dishonest, even if the theft is simply that of a stream of electronic data.

As for Hank's contention; yes, I am sure that many Tgirls are exploited, but........ that is the way of business.......and life! Since the dawn of time, life has been a struggle for ascendancy and there has always been the screwers and screwees. That is written in the genetic code of life. Legal laws enacted by mankind often seem to go against the laws of Nature. The laws of man are usually designed to advance the welfare of the many, while Nature's laws are to promote the survival of the fittest.

So, where is the Tgirl-Sexworker Union? If they could organize and follow the path blazed by other unions, they might have a chance. Til then, they can only speak to our conscience as Krissy does here. Or....

What if a very nasty virus was embedded in each picture or other form of media that would remain dormant as long as the proper code was used in conjunction with the use of the data. Pirate surprise!!!

[Jenae LaTorque]

I took a look at Krissy's blog and would encourage others to do so. To be honest, forget the pictures. Read the thoughts, that is where the gold is. I know that I put her in my list of favorites.

[seanchai]

Hankhavealock, your a complete idiot and a complete bigot.

You have no idea what we pay the models which is a hell of a lot more thamn $50 and have worked with many models, to increase their business, their own websites and if they've had a desire to work in this business, given them direction to other quality producers.
There is no such thing as "royalty" payments in any online adult sites, videos or magazines, so wherever you've gotten that idea from, your completely misinformed ... and if that was the system, then we certainly would not have the budgets to work with as many models as we do now.

Of course, this is a business and as a business it needs to be profitable but we've always tried to do this with keeping as many of the models in profit also, which is why some models have done extremely well working with us.

Use whatever excuse you might want to show stolen content ... but showing that, is putting less money into the models pockets ... period.

You coarse attempt at humor in constantly referring to Krissy as "he" where she has presented herself on a "trans" forum as a female, further proves what a prick you must be and what issues you must have with your own identity.

seanchai

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by seanchai

Hankhavealock, your a complete idiot and a complete bigot.

You have no idea what we pay the models which is a hell of a lot more thamn $50 and have worked with many models, to increase their business, their own websites and if they've had a desire to work in this business, given them direction to other quality producers.
There is no such thing as "royalty" payments in any online adult sites, videos or magazines, so wherever you've gotten that idea from, your completely misinformed ... and if that was the system, then we certainly would not have the budgets to work with as many models as we do now.

Of course, this is a business and as a business it needs to be profitable but we've always tried to do this with keeping as many of the models in profit also, which is why some models have done extremely well working with us.

Use whatever excuse you might want to show stolen content ... but showing that, is putting less money into the models pockets ... period.

You coarse attempt at humor in constantly referring to Krissy as "he" where she has presented herself on a "trans" forum as a female, further proves what a prick you must be and what issues you must have with your own identity.

seanchai

Ah, ur an "entrepreneur" too... good for you! And I'm generally SO touched by all the care you deep down inside share for the ladies... I'm sure that's what motivates you all! All you jolly folks of the adult industry.

And btw, why do you think that such a thing as royalties is not "normal" in the porn-industry? Because the industry is being run by the BoyScouts?

Glad I was succesful in stepping u over ur big toes! But how could I have missed anyway?

H

[Bionca]

Hank,

I understand where your heart is. The sex industry has a tendency to chew girls up and spit them out. The fact that for many trans women sex work is all the work they can get is a problem. The fact that this places trans women in vulnerable positions particularly if they are doing it for survival.

HOWEVER - I know plenty of gals who would have been in serious shit had it not been for escort work. I also know a couple gals who actively choose to work in escorting and porn because the money is decent if you can manage it (it's like any freelance job the money is there or it isn't).

Are the people involved in the porn industry saints? Nope. Do they try to pay as little as they can to maximize profits? yup. Do they pay just enough to attract talent? yes. Do they perpetuate images of trans women that are unrealistic? hell yes.

Also, as far as I know, porn companies aren't exactly kidnapping women to work for them. They have women who are choosing to do this because they weighed the risks and the rewards. To say that a woman who has the presence of mind to transition is suddenly a poor dupe for the big bad porn industry seems a stretch.

You know I'm pretty luke warm about porn. However, my objections are with the guys who can only function with a trans woman as an exotic fetish. My problems are not with the models or the people who produce the content. My only issue there is that I think they play up the idea that Trans women "trick" men into sex - we know too well how that gets played in trials for our murdered sisters.

Again, porn has problems and there are valid reasons to criticize. But the industry itself and the people working in it are just folks trying to survive.

[Bionca]

Also, as a woman who has had her photos lifted and used to advertise escorts - yeah stealing peoples images and content is pretty messed up. Seriously, most porn production companies are not exactly rolling in cash and surely the models can't afford to lose money.

[GroobyKrissy]

Originally Posted by Bionca

Also, as far as I know, porn companies aren't exactly kidnapping women to work for them. They have women who are choosing to do this because they weighed the risks and the rewards. To say that a woman who has the presence of mind to transition is suddenly a poor dupe for the big bad porn industry seems a stretch.

Hi Bionca

Thanks for your thoughts. I read some posts from your blog and it looks like you tackle some pretty hefty issues there... kudos!

I totally agree with this... (and, BTW... I guess I'll just consider this thread hijacked since we're on the topic of exploitation now).

I would make a bold statement and say that if you're in the US and most European countries and are in the Porn Industry, you're either doing it for EXTRA money or to start or further a career. As such, you're making a choice and if you allow yourself to be taken advantage of, then it's on your head to expand your knowledge of business and represent yourself accordingly.

The TS Porn Industry is fairly small and word travels fast. If you keep up with happenings, the recent outcry against the proposed box cover for America's Next Top Tranny 4, featuring Olivia Love is a good example. TS Porn Producers know this and, on the whole, treat their models well or else they're not going to have any models to shoot!

I would go so far to say that generally speaking, exploitation in the TS Porn Industry, here in the US, is pretty few and far between in the true sense of the word. Of course, you'll always get the girl here and there who makes a big ruckus after she's been paid... but, I think you'll find that in a large percentage of those cases, she saw the dollars and never read the Model Release (typically a few pages).

[seanchai]

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

Ah, ur an "entrepreneur" too... good for you! And I'm generally SO touched by all the care you deep down inside share for the ladies... I'm sure that's what motivates you all! All you jolly folks of the adult industry.

And btw, why do you think that such a thing as royalties is not "normal" in the porn-industry? Because the industry is being run by the BoyScouts?

Glad I was succesful in stepping u over ur big toes! But how could I have missed anyway?

H

Happy to see you completely failed to respond with anything but insults.

I run a highly successful business but it's how I run my business that defines me and my company. We run out business profitably and with a good reputation and integrity amongst the models, where new comers or industry pros. We do this by treating them fairly, professionally and honestly.

The royalty system couldn't work in the adult industry, the same as many other industry where it doesn't work because the money isn't there. This is why many models decide to open their own websites so they can cash in on their name and their content and have some further control over it.

Why do you think the royalty system should work? Somebody is paid very well for doing a 2-3 hr job and then they "leave the building" why do you think they should be paid extra on top of that, when they're not doing anything extra?

It seems like your issue is with the "adult industry" in general and you seem rather bitter about it all, as I stated, you have underlying issues you need to resolve yourself without accusing the whole adult industry and especially the posters in this topic, or under-handedness. Rather sad, really.


ANY PROSPECTIVE MODELS - PLEASE LOOK AT HTTP://WWW.GROOBY.COM OR EMAIL ME AT ADMIN@GROOBY.COM - ALWAYS LOOKING!

[GroobyKrissy]

Still waiting for an answer about how you 'HELP' the 'trans*women' you seem to care so much about...??

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

Ah, ur an "entrepreneur" too... good for you! And I'm generally SO touched by all the care you deep down inside share for the ladies... I'm sure that's what motivates you all! All you jolly folks of the adult industry.

And btw, why do you think that such a thing as royalties is not "normal" in the porn-industry? Because the industry is being run by the BoyScouts?

Glad I was succesful in stepping u over ur big toes! But how could I have missed anyway?

H

[GroobyKrissy]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

So, where is the Tgirl-Sexworker Union? If they could organize and follow the path blazed by other unions, they might have a chance. Til then, they can only speak to our conscience as Krissy does here. Or....

Hiya Jenae

I actually like this idea but I don't think many Tgirls would support such an organization. One of the major obstacles to this is how catty we Tgirls can be even among ourselves. Let's face the facts, we have a very dysfunctional community and although there are small pockets of 'sisterhood' to be found, on the whole, it's a 'cat eat cat' world out there.

We can't even agree on terms we use to describe ourselves... which, BTW, I've started a thread on in the General Discussion area.

[TS_aficionado]

@GroobyKrissy:

It's hard to agree with you seeing this vicious RIAA (and MPAA) campaign. This maniacal rampage made a lot of people (myself included) rethink the idea of paying for anything at all online, not just music and movies.

[GroobyKrissy]

Originally Posted by TS_aficionado

@GroobyKrissy:

It's hard to agree with you seeing this vicious RIAA (and MPAA) campaign. This maniacal rampage made a lot of people (myself included) rethink the idea of paying for anything at all online, not just music and movies.

Vicious?

I don't think you can compare the TS Industry with the campaigns of the record executives... two completely different industries with VAST differences in property.

However... property rights should be observed and respected in any case. Like I stated earlier, you don't go around stealing gasoline just because you think the price is unfair or you don't walk into a store and steal a suit even though you know it probably cost the store a fraction of the price. You just don't. Why? Maybe because you're scared of prosecution, or being caught, or it's a personal moral decision.

Theft is theft. For some reason, the same person that would never go on a shoplifting spree thinks nothing of downloading an entire site's content and reposting it somewhere else for others to use. That is theft, it is illegal, and people should be prosecuted for it. Many people think that they'll never be caught or if they are, nothing will happen. This is changing rapidly and more and more people are seeing the consequences of their KNOWING actions. Almost all sites record IP Addresses now and local authorities are become more and more helpful in stopping online copyright infringements.

I'm not saying I agree with prosecuting a 15 year old kid who is downloading songs or a mother with children who claims not to have known better BUT... I think you would have a completely different point of view if it was your livelihood that was being whittled away by people stealing and reposting your content.

Are you saying that people shouldn't have the right to protect their copyrighted material?

[TS_aficionado]

I don't think you can compare the TS Industry with the campaigns of the record executives... two completely different industries with VAST differences in property.

That's true of course, but I was speaking in general since you were too.

property rights should be observed and respected in any case.

That was the case years ago. The age of the internet radically changed the attitudes towards this concept. That's why the music and movie industries are bleeding money: because they could not adapt to this new reality.

you don't walk into a store and steal a suit even though you know it probably cost the store a fraction of the price.

There's a difference. If you steal a suit, it disappears.

the same person that would never go on a shoplifting spree thinks nothing of downloading an entire site's content and reposting it somewhere else for others to use.

On principle, I think that's wrong, especially in the cases of smaller up-and-coming websites. But I'll be honest with you, with WMG pressuring youtube to remove songs, the RIAA's absurd campaign to stop music piracy, which includes them demanding a woman be charged hundreds of thousands of dollars for a few songs, and even US law itself that puts money above humans (5 years for pirating a movie?), the whole idea of copyright has become a grotesque capitalist monster that's devouring people alive.

Many people think that they'll never be caught or if they are, nothing will happen. This is changing rapidly

Actually it isn't. Even the RIAA is almost giving up on those lawsuits and focusing rather on pressuring ISP's to stop piracy. There's simply no use going against this new wave. Not prosecution or anything will stop it. Not even new technologies can do any good, as pirates have found ways to break every single DRM and anti-piracy measure ever conceived. The only way for property owners to survive is to find ways to adapt.

I think you would have a completely different point of view if it was your livelihood that was being whittled away by people stealing and reposting your content.

Personally I think it would be very wrong if someone did that to you. I know you have a website and it seems like an independent startup. Someone copying and pasting your content would be an immoral thing to do IMO and could not be defended. My focus, however, was on mega conglomerates steamrolling average citizens over a few songs.

Are you saying that people shouldn't have the right to protect their copyrighted material?

As is clear by now, I think they do, but not up to the insane level the RIAA is doing.

[GroobyKrissy]

@ TS_aficionado

I'm not going to do a quotation since that would make for one long post...

I don't know... the line has to be drawn somewhere and I think the overwhelming majority of musicians, artists, photographers, videographers, webmasters, content producers, etc. out there would love to see these cases prosecuted more fully. The reality is that there just isn't funding for these crimes which, as a whole, are viewed by law enforcement as 'victimless.' (I was told as much by a Salem, OR detective who I gave the address, IP address and etc. to for someone who had downloaded and reposted a huge collection of videos from my site and refused to check it out).

Now... I totally understand where you've become jaded by prosecutors trying to make 'examples' out of small, rinky dinky cases like the ones you and I mentioned earlier. And, like I said earlier, I don't agree with wanting to put a felony record of theft on some 15 year old's record for downloading songs. But, when it comes to people who run torrents and boards which actively promote content piracy and just laugh at you when you send them an email or letter asking them to remove links... I say, throw the book at them.

I don't see this as a helpless wave of technology which we all have to adapt to. Technology criminals are (for the most part) smart. We have to become smarter. People will always find a way to override safeguards, but, the average porn surfer isn't going to spend the time to learn how to defeat a DRM... because the average porn user is just good ol, blue collar joe blow wanting to get off. I like him. He wants his porn and a few minutes of pleasure. And I want to help him.

The suit doesn't disappear... the costs are still VERY apparent to the store owner. He may have another one in stock but he's still out the cost AND profit for the original. With digital media, the costs are even higher because it is an ongoing crime. Who knows how many people viewing a stolen movie would have joined a site otherwise? It's very difficult to put a price on it.

When I was younger and Napster was the brand new shiny thing... I was the first to jump in line and say, wow... free stuff! How cool! I must have downloaded a ton of music. And, for a long time, I never bought a CD. Then, I started a site and started seeing my content pop up on file-sharing sites. That was the end of my support of Napster and other sites encouraging free content sharing. Don't get me wrong, there are legitimate things going on on some of those sites but I do NOT support illegal content sharing in any way. It hurts me, it hurts the industry, and in the long run, it hurts the legitimate purchasers of the content as sites have to raise prices to make up for lost revenue, just like stores pass on the prices of 'shrinkage' (shoplifting), doctors pass on the prices of insurance, etc.

[charlietwobeans]

Originally Posted by seanchai

Actually for over 12 years we've been offering alternative ways to pay, including sending cash, money orders or cashiers checks directly to us ... I think we are one of the few porn companies to do this.
Take a look at http://www.grooby.com/paybymail.html for discounts!

Just FYI - I also noticed a few non-porn sites taking Amazon credit (which you can get at more than a few places in lieu of cash). I assume this credit can be applied to their lease of Amazon services (E3, etc.), which I think is a pretty interesting way of doing things - creates a whole new thread of an economy, much like Second Life.

As for the original post, sans all the vitriol and ugly back-and-forth, I wanted to apologize to Krissy and to all the other independent providers because I did post advocating only free sites. I was only thinking about the major pay sites when I posted that, and was definitely not thinking about the thousands of independent, creative, intriguing people that spend their days and nights crafting sites like Krissy's and certainly deserve compensation for it.

I, like many, don't have the luxury of privacy so that credit cards can read whatever they want, so the option is not there for me.

On a final note, I don't really get the anger directed toward Krissy and others on their position, so I will leave it alone. Enough has been said already.

[TS_aficionado]

I see what you're saying Krissy. Long story short: I believe it's very wrong if someone did that to you (or any small independent company that really needs the money). But RIAA and MPAA have absolutely no sympathy from me over any losses they incur.

Best of luck with your website.

[hankhavelock]

I've been called an idiot and a bigot... I'm probably both, but one thing I'm not, and that's a hypocrite.

To have porn-producers stand up here with the audacity to ask "whether we care about trans*women" is simply the worst kind of hypocracy I've so far witnessed at this good forum. The most exploitatious multi-dollar business trying to come ahead with a humane face... "If you truly care about trannies, then buy my dirty movies..."

Please... it's like "if you love kids, then become a pedophile..."

Not only is it completely hollow, but it's also the same old story - and the same old gasoline on the branding-fire that trans*women are good for nothing but porn... you porn-kings harm transsexuality more than you realize - not that I have any thoughts that you give a flying fuck...

No, the porn-industry can have its kicks - porn and prostitution are fine, as long as the ladies are in it of their own free will. Anyone here should by now know that I'm a very liberal and broad-minded guy.

But when hypocracy gets institutionalized and made into something mundane, and especially when it's used to bash ppl on their heads, then I react.

If I'm the only one here who can grasp the grotesqueness of this entire thread, then so be it, and then there is, indeed, a rather long way for trans*emancipation. If you all fall on your asses in appreciation of a porn-predator, whos actions are counter-productive to the branding of transsexuality, then I can only cry. But it sure as shit is not gonna stop ME from calling the bluff.

I've read a lot of shit here, but this thread takes the price. To THINK that someone will even DARE to post themselves as caring about transsexuality "if you just buy my sleazy movies" is absolutely unacceptable.

I dunno how many of you good people here actually have a life that includes transsexuality (a minority, for sure), but if you did, then you'd realize the pain and the seriousness of the matter - the pain of constantly being viewed as a sex object... HOT but not worthy of real and deep emotions. A short fuck, sure, but don't tell anyone...

Not least due to a porn industry that has little care for the well-being of anyone but the mob who owns it.

So STOP the bullshit... please! And get a perspective on this!

What I read here hurts me deeply in my heart - and no matter how deeply I may hurt, it's NOTHING compared to the daily transsexual pain.

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Hank

[GroobyKrissy]

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

Please... it's like "if you love kids, then become a pedophile."

I dislike when threads drag on and on for pages but this deserves a response.

This is, quite simply one of the most ignorant and illogical statements I have EVER heard and shows that you have no basic grasp of reality. I think it's clear to ANYONE who reads a statement like that why it's just wrong that I'm not even going to dignify it with a response. Hank, you need help if that is the way you look at life.

So... STILL waiting to hear from you about what YOU do to help the TS community? Funny you should be here on a largely PORN centered board with these strong anti-porn statements. And, please... let's talk hypocrisy. Here you're railing against the industry... can you honestly tell me that you've NEVER looked at one single picture or one single movie from one of these sites you're going off about? If you're intentions here are so 'lily white,' then why haven't you answered the basic question of WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO HELP THE TS COMMUNITY?

Please... your grasp of reality and lack of logic astounds me. You are the WORST kind of hypocrite... the kind that doesn't even know he is one.

[seanchai]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

So, where is the Tgirl-Sexworker Union? If they could organize and follow the path blazed by other unions, they might have a chance. Til then, they can only speak to our conscience as Krissy does here. Or....

I've encouraged this a few times ... but the sad fact remains, it would take one emboldened tgirl to put this together and to run it. Most of the models just aren't very good at working together even for something that would benefit them.