Liberal free for all coming to an end

[ila]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

........It's not perfect, but the alternative in unacceptable. America is all about free speech........

Really, Tracy? You should study your country's history. The USA is all about taxation without representation. That is how it all started.

[randolph]

Reagan insider: 'GOP destroyed U.S. economy'
Commentary: How: Gold. Tax cuts. Debts. Wars. Fat Cats. Class gap. No fiscal discipline
By Paul B. Farrell, MarketWatch
ARROYO GRANDE, Calif. (MarketWatch) -- "How my G.O.P. destroyed the U.S. economy." Yes, that is exactly what David Stockman, President Ronald Reagan's director of the Office of Management and Budget, wrote in a recent New York Times op-ed piece, "Four Deformations of the Apocalypse."
Get it? Not "destroying." The GOP has already "destroyed" the U.S. economy, setting up an "American Apocalypse."
Jobs recovery could take years
In the wake of Friday's disappointing jobs report, Neal Lipschutz and Phil Izzo discuss new predictions that it could be many years before the nation's unemployment rate reaches pre-recession levels.
Yes, Stockman is equally damning of the Democrats' Keynesian policies. But what this indictment by a party insider -- someone so close to the development of the Reaganomics ideology -- says about America, helps all of us better understand how America's toxic partisan-politics "holy war" is destroying not just the economy and capitalism, but the America dream. And unless this war stops soon, both parties will succeed in their collective death wish.
But why focus on Stockman's message? It's already lost in the 24/7 news cycle. Why? We need some introspection. Ask yourself: How did the great nation of America lose its moral compass and drift so far off course, to where our very survival is threatened?
We've arrived at a historic turning point as a nation that no longer needs outside enemies to destroy us, we are committing suicide. Democracy. Capitalism. The American dream. All dying. Why? Because of the economic decisions of the GOP the past 40 years, says this leading Reagan Republican.
Please listen with an open mind, no matter your party affiliation: This makes for a powerful history lesson, because it exposes how both parties are responsible for destroying the U.S. economy. Listen closely:
Reagan Republican: the GOP should file for bankruptcy
Stockman rushes into the ring swinging like a boxer: "If there were such a thing as Chapter 11 for politicians, the Republican push to extend the unaffordable Bush tax cuts would amount to a bankruptcy filing. The nation's public debt ... will soon reach $18 trillion." It screams "out for austerity and sacrifice." But instead, the GOP insists "that the nation's wealthiest taxpayers be spared even a three-percentage-point rate increase."
In the past 40 years Republican ideology has gone from solid principles to hype and slogans. Stockman says: "Republicans used to believe that prosperity depended upon the regular balancing of accounts -- in government, in international trade, on the ledgers of central banks and in the financial affairs of private households and businesses too."
No more. Today there's a "new catechism" that's "little more than money printing and deficit finance, vulgar Keynesianism robed in the ideological vestments of the prosperous classes" making a mockery of GOP ideals. Worse, it has resulted in "serial financial bubbles and Wall Street depredations that have crippled our economy." Yes, GOP ideals backfired, crippling our economy.
Stockman's indictment warns that the Republican party's "new policy doctrines have caused four great deformations of the national economy, and modern Republicans have turned a blind eye to each one:"

I believe party affiliation is irrelevant here. This is a crucial subject that must be explored because it further exposes a dangerous historical trend where politics is so partisan it's having huge negative consequences.
Yes, the GOP does have a welfare-warfare state: Stockman says "the neocons were pushing the military budget skyward. And the Republicans on Capitol Hill who were supposed to cut spending, exempted from the knife most of the domestic budget -- entitlements, farm subsidies, education, water projects. But in the end it was a new cadre of ideological tax-cutters who killed the Republicans' fiscal religion."
When Fed chief Paul Volcker "crushed inflation" in the '80s we got a "solid economic rebound." But then "the new tax-cutters not only claimed victory for their supply-side strategy but hooked Republicans for good on the delusion that the economy will outgrow the deficit if plied with enough tax cuts." By 2009, they "reduced federal revenues to 15% of gross domestic product," lowest since the 1940s. Still today they're irrationally demanding an extension of those "unaffordable Bush tax cuts [that] would amount to a bankruptcy filing."
Recently Bush made matters far worse by "rarely vetoing a budget bill and engaging in two unfinanced foreign military adventures." Bush also gave in "on domestic spending cuts, signing into law $420 billion in nondefense appropriations, a 65% percent gain from the $260 billion he had inherited eight years earlier. Republicans thus joined the Democrats in a shameless embrace of a free-lunch fiscal policy." Takes two to tango.
Stage 3. Wall Street's deadly 'vast, unproductive expansion'
Stockman continues pounding away: "The third ominous change in the American economy has been the vast, unproductive expansion of our financial sector." He warns that "Republicans have been oblivious to the grave danger of flooding financial markets with freely printed money and, at the same time, removing traditional restrictions on leverage and speculation." Wrong, not oblivious. Self-interested Republican loyalists like Paulson, Bernanke and Geithner knew exactly what they were doing.
They wanted the economy, markets and the government to be under the absolute control of Wall Street's too-greedy-to-fail banks. They conned Congress and the Fed into bailing out an estimated $23.7 trillion debt. Worse, they have since destroyed meaningful financial reforms. So Wall Street is now back to business as usual blowing another bigger bubble/bust cycle that will culminate in the coming "American Apocalypse."
Stockman refers to Wall Street's surviving banks as "wards of the state." Wrong, the opposite is true. Wall Street now controls Washington, and its "unproductive" trading is "extracting billions from the economy with a lot of pointless speculation in stocks, bonds, commodities and derivatives." Wall Street banks like Goldman were virtually bankrupt, would have never survived without government-guaranteed deposits and "virtually free money from the Fed's discount window to cover their bad bets."
Stage 4. New American Revolution class-warfare coming soon
Finally, thanks to Republican policies that let us "live beyond our means for decades by borrowing heavily from abroad, we have steadily sent jobs and production offshore," while at home "high-value jobs in goods production ... trade, transportation, information technology and the professions shrunk by 12% to 68 million from 77 million."
As the apocalypse draws near, Stockman sees a class-rebellion, a new revolution, a war against greed and the wealthy. Soon. The trigger will be the growing gap between economic classes: No wonder "that during the last bubble (from 2002 to 2006) the top 1% of Americans -- paid mainly from the Wall Street casino -- received two-thirds of the gain in national income, while the bottom 90% -- mainly dependent on Main Street's shrinking economy -- got only 12%. This growing wealth gap is not the market's fault. It's the decaying fruit of bad economic policy."
Get it? The decaying fruit of the GOP's bad economic policies is destroying our economy.
Warning: this black swan won't be pretty, will shock, soon
His bottom line: "The day of national reckoning has arrived. We will not have a conventional business recovery now, but rather a long hangover of debt liquidation and downsizing ... it's a pity that the modern Republican party offers the American people an irrelevant platform of recycled Keynesianism when the old approach -- balanced budgets, sound money and financial discipline -- is needed more than ever."
Wrong: There are far bigger things to "pity."
First, that most Americans, 300 million, are helpless, will do nothing, sit in the bleachers passively watching this deadly partisan game like it's just another TV reality show.
Second, that, unfortunately, politicians are so deep-in-the-pockets of the Wall Street conspiracy that controls Washington they are helpless and blind.
And third, there's a depressing sense that Stockman will be dismissed as a traitor, his message lost in the 24/7 news cycle ... until the final apocalyptic event, an unpredictable black swan triggers another, bigger global meltdown, followed by a long Great Depression II and a historic class war.
So be prepared, it will hit soon, when you least expect.

I had to leave part 1 of this article out in order to get it to fit.

I thought Tracy might be interested in this. We will have to wait and see won't we?
That's right Tracy, keep your fingers crossed.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by smc

although I will show you examples of voter suppression during the Bush administration by Republicans, including a case in New Hampshire that resulted in a guilty plea and prison time for an operative of the Republican National Committee.

Good. I have no stomach for voter fraud from either side.

Originally Posted by ila

Really, Tracy? You should study your country's history. The USA is all about taxation without representation. That is how it all started.

Freedom of speech is in Amendment number 1. That is what I am referring to.

Originally Posted by smc

In 2002, Republican officials in New Hampshire attempted to reduce the number of Democratic voters by jamming phones....

Ok, I stand corrected. It seems that republicans do attempt to influence elections. I still think it's far more rampant on the democrats side.

Originally Posted by smc

I'm glad to hear that. Let's be more specific. Do you therefore support H.R.5175, The DISCLOSE Act, which was introduced in Congress earlier this year? Its official brief description is: "To amend the Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971 to prohibit foreign influence in Federal elections, to prohibit government contractors from making expenditures with respect to such elections, and to establish additional disclosure requirements with respect to spending in such elections, and for other purposes."

Yeah, I still say yes, why not?

Originally Posted by smc

The Republican leadership argued that the Democrats were trying to "rig the system" to their advantage. How can there be an advantage for any one side in mandating full disclosure in a democracy, unless someone wants to keep something a secret?

I don't understand republicans' problem with this. And I suspect it's probably not a valid concern.

Originally Posted by randolph

Its obvious the Repubs are against this. They would lose elections.

Why?

[smc]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Ok, I stand corrected. It seems that republicans do attempt to influence elections. I still think it's far more rampant on the democrats side.

What is the basis upon which you "think it's far more rampant" among Democrats? Can you cite actual statistics?

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by smc

What is the basis upon which you "think it's far more rampant" among Democrats? Can you cite actual statistics?

I don't collect statistics and statistics can be made to show either side, but I do know that ACORN got nailed in 14 states in 2008 for voter fraud on the side of the democrats. And I know that liberals think they can get millions of votes if they can just get illegals to become citizens. And they aren't waiting. They're fighting against attempts to verify the citizenship of potential voters so that illegals can squeak through. These two things alone are not isolated incidents. They are on a multi-state scale.

[smc]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

I don't collect statistics and statistics can be made to show either side, but I do know that ACORN got nailed in 14 states in 2008 for voter fraud on the side of the democrats. And I know that liberals think they can get millions of votes if they can just get illegals to become citizens. And they aren't waiting. They're fighting against attempts to verify the citizenship of potential voters so that illegals can squeak through. These two things alone are not isolated incidents. They are on a multi-state scale.

The way in which you write about Democratic-related "voter fraud" -- with such anger and vitriol -- and the way in which you acknowledge Republican-related "voter fraud" when presented with the evidence -- with terse, one-line sentences -- I believe speaks volumes.

The problem of those who are either in power or seek to be in power (Democrats and Republicans alike), and who have enormous financial resources at their disposal that people like you and I, Tracy, do not have, is a threat to whatever vestiges of democracy we may enjoy in this country. It should not matter WHO subverts elections as much as THAT they are subverted. So long as you cannot demonstrate equal anger about both "sides" seeking to take away the power of your one vote through some kind of fraud, it is difficult to see that your objections are not grounded in something more insidious. Why should it matter more that one side may be trying to get immigrants to vote than it matters that another side is trying to ensure that minorities (citizens of this country) don't get to vote?

One of the things that polarizes people in the United States on the left and right is that the 24/7 cycle of vituperative commentary from the left and right uses selective information to skew the debate. You, I believe, have been cheated by some of those commentators, because they made sure you knew that ACORN had been accused of voter fraud in 14 states in 2008, but they made sure not to tell you whatever because of those accusations.

I am no supporter of ACORN, but of truth and civil discourse. Did you know, Tracy, that in June of this year the Government Accounting Office (GAO) -- independent of the Obama administration and of the Republicans -- released a report on these accusations in 14 states?

The GAO report found that, in every one of those cases, complaints filed against ACORN with the Federal Elections Commission (FEC) were dismissed. The FEC is also not directly affiliated with the Democratic or Republican parties. The report also showed that four of six FBI investigations into alleged voter fraud committed by ACORN employees were closed due to lack of evidence. The two other investigations were also closed and referred to local and state jurisdictions.

The report detailed five cases in which ACORN employees pled guilty to misdemeanor counts of voter registration fraud, but the GAO stated that these cases did not allege any wrongdoing on behalf of ACORN itself or any affiliated organizations -- only the individuals. Did you know that ACORN, in fact, offered materials to local election officials that helped initiate the prosecution of these guilty individuals, because ACORN felt that they had undermined the proper training ACORN had provided them to register voters legally?

Again, I am not defending ACORN, but seeking the truth and encouraging you to direct your anger where it really NEEDS to be directed -- -- at anyone who usurps your democratic rights.

It is only my opinion, but it seems to me that you would want to get the widest possible hearing for your complaints about the government. Direct you anger appropriately, and recognize who is really at fault (hint: it's the people who own the wealth, not their politician lackeys, who are the real enemy, and those people support both sides to keep you thinking you have a choice), and you'll certainly get my ear for anything you want to say.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by smc

The problem of those who are either in power or seek to be in power (Democrats and Republicans alike), and who have enormous financial resources at their disposal that people like you and I, Tracy, do not have, is a threat to whatever vestiges of democracy we may enjoy in this country. It should not matter WHO subverts elections as much as THAT they are subverted. So long as you cannot demonstrate equal anger about both "sides" seeking to take away the power of your one vote through some kind of fraud, it is difficult to see that your objections are not grounded in something more insidious.

As I said before, I do not see a problem with corporate backers in elections. They exist on both sides. And what difference does it make? Liberal leaning billionaires and corporations sunk a fortune into this election for NOTHING because what it comes down to is not their money. It comes down to the voters. They are the ones who go into the voting booth and cast their vote, not the evil corporations.

When the liberals tamper with the voters, THAT's where I have a problem. When you're bringing in illegal aliens, that's tampering with the voter. When you're signing up voters to vote multiple times, that's tampering with the voter. When you're filling out default liberal votes, that's tampering with the voter.

Originally Posted by smc

Why should it matter more that one side may be trying to get immigrants to vote than it matters that another side is trying to ensure that minorities (citizens of this country) don't get to vote?

Give these poor minorities a little credit. If they wanted to vote, no one is stopping them.

Originally Posted by smc

One of the things that polarizes people in the United States on the left and right is that the 24/7 cycle of vituperative commentary from the left and right uses selective information to skew the debate. You, I believe, have been cheated by some of those commentators, because they made sure you knew that ACORN had been accused of voter fraud in 14 states in 2008, but they made sure not to tell you whatever because of those accusations.

I know CNN is biased. And I also know Fox News is biased. I used to watch CNN exclusively. But then when I started to wake up to the liberal lies I started getting my news from several sources. And I noticed more and more that liberal news sources just out and out lie more than anything else I've seen. So pardon me if I don't get my news from there. I think I've had a pretty good track record of telling it like it is, and predicting where things were going on the Obama thread so my news sources are probably not all that bad.

Originally Posted by smc

The GAO report found that, in every one of those cases, complaints filed against ACORN with the Federal Elections Commission (FEC) were dismissed.

And why is that? Certainly some pretty damning evidence has been shown so there better be a good reason. I'll look into this when I get some time, but right now I have a computer to rebuild.

[smc]

You can't have it both ways, Tracy. You can't admit there is voter suppression by both sides and then claim that the side you don't like can vote if they want to, no matter what might be done to keep that from happening. That's hypocrisy. And it's also hypocritical to state that adding votes to the mix that are or may be cast illegally is a problem that subverts elections, while implying by omission -- as you do again and again -- that subtracting potential votes does not subvert elections. If someone keeps a voter from voting, and someone else brings a voter to the polls and makes it possible for that person to vote even though not eligible, is that not the same subversion of your vote and how it counts.

Unless you can state unequivocally that anything that subverts elections, be it illegal voters or voter suppression or advertisements that lie but have no traceability as to who funded them, etc., etc. etc. -- then your argument is fallacious. And after many attempts, there is no value in challenging a fallacious argument. It is a waste of time.

I will continue to hold out hope that your interest is in truth and constructive discourse. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but not one's own facts.

[randolph]

Wall Street campaign donations to Democrats and Republicans. Something happened in October 2009. Health care bill?

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

Wall Street campaign donations to Democrats and Republicans. Something happened in October 2009. Health care bill?

How odd... it's exactly inverted.