"Real Girls"

[SoWhatThenWhy]

I'm pretty sure this won't be a popular post, but I had to chime in. I think the reason some guys don't consider transgendered women "real" women is because they simply aren't. You may be a woman internally, but the term "real" is used to describe the gender we were brought to this earth with. It's like a person associating with a different race; no matter how much they feel they are that race inside, they'll never be.

On top of that, why would you want to be considered a "real" woman anyway? I think there's something special about being transgendered.

Meh, my two cents.

[ila]

Originally Posted by SoWhatThenWhy

I'm pretty sure this won't be a popular post, but I had to chime in. I think the reason some guys don't consider transgendered women "real" women is because they simply aren't. You may be a woman internally, but the term "real" is used to describe the gender we were brought to this earth with. It's like a person associating with a different race; no matter how much they feel they are that race inside, they'll never be.

On top of that, why would you want to be considered a "real" woman anyway? I think there's something special about being transgendered.

Meh, my two cents.

You are wrong. Transwomen are real women. Part of gender identification is in a person's brain. Just because a transwoman's genitals do not match what she feels or knows to be true does not make her any less of a woman. The definition you used is your own. That doesn't make it the correct definition. Your comparison of gender to race is like comparing horses to bananas. They are two completely separate things with no relationship, whatsoever, to one another.

[marlowe]

Originally Posted by SoWhatThenWhy

.... I think the reason some guys don't consider transgendered women "real" women is because they simply aren't. ..... the term "real" is used to describe the gender we were brought to this earth with. ..... why would you want to be considered a "real" woman anyway? .....

I don't think Bionca is anxious to be considered a "real" woman (at least not by the definition you make). Her objection concerns the use of the term "real women" in a context that differentiates from trans women and where the inference may be derogatory to trans women, suggesting that their "reality", their lives, are somehow less valid.

Here's some (partial) dictionary definition of "real" -
'actually existing, genuine, rightly so called, sincere, not merely apparent or supposed or pretended or artificial or hypocritical or affected'

Bionca and other trans women identify as women, live as women and wish to be accepted thus, and regardless of to what degree they choose to reveal their trans status, past life, or indeed genitalia, I'm sure they do not wish to have their existence perceived as any less "real" than anyone else's.

In this context the prejudice of differentiating as "real" and "not real" can, in extremis, lead to very real dangers as has been pointed out.

[Bionca]

Marlowe.. I couldn't have put it better

Ila ... you are completely correct about the race/trans* comparison

[Bionca]

Originally Posted by SoWhatThenWhy

I'm pretty sure this won't be a popular post, but I had to chime in. I think the reason some guys don't consider transgendered women "real" women is because they simply aren't. You may be a woman internally, but the term "real" is used to describe the gender we were brought to this earth with. It's like a person associating with a different race; no matter how much they feel they are that race inside, they'll never be.

On top of that, why would you want to be considered a "real" woman anyway? I think there's something special about being transgendered.

Meh, my two cents.

I do want to say that I agree. There is something special about being trans* and surely nothing wrong with being trans*. I'm perfectly happy being a transgendered woman - it's just another way of being a "real woman".

[SoWhatThenWhy]

Originally Posted by Bionca

I do want to say that I agree. There is something special about being trans* and surely nothing wrong with being trans*. I'm perfectly happy being a transgendered woman - it's just another way of being a "real woman".

Thanks. I meant nothing negative by my comments, and I can see Marlowe's view.

But Ila, in the context I used the comparison, it's apples to apples.

A person is born to their race = A person born to their gender.

Oh, by the way, you're an absolutely gorgeous woman Bionca.

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by SoWhatThenWhy

On top of that, why would you want to be considered a "real" woman anyway? I think there's something special about being transgendered.

Meh, my two cents.

This is a beautifully provocative statement that I will follow totally!

I think you are SO RIGHT!

Unless we start dealing with the cromosomes, which can get sorta messy, then this is the case!

A trans*woman is NOT judged by her cromosomes but by her ability to LIVE her femininity through her mind and given body.

And aint nothing very grander than that!

H

[Darha]

Be patient, I say that "real girls" are as they are in her minds, the body does not define anything (focus on your face, for me this say more than if you have a pussy or penis), I hope to find a woman like you and I know that are many who want to share a life, anybody an find the real love. Will be patient for the rest of the world, one day everybody will respects all of you as a "real girls"

thats just sick beating someone even if i wasnt attracted to tgs i know for a fact that if i ended up about to have sex with one then found out i know i would never beat them i just think that people that do that are really insecure and need to open their mind

[franalexes]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Ok, so it does seem that you distinguish between gals like you, and gals who are not like you. Shall we refer to "real" girls from now on as gals unlike Bionca? Or do you have any other suggestions for terminology we should use when talking about "real" girls with people who don't know Bionca?

Chaulk one up for Tracy.
Bionca, I think the term here is "GOTCHA! " You want a guy(xy) that will treat you as xx but who is not looking for a xx.

[CCC]

Good Golly Miss Molly---after reading this thread I don't know if my opinion would get me a pat on the noggin or a kick in the pants. All I know is the moment a person starts living as a woman full time then I would call her a girl/lady/she/female etc. I have fortuneately met a number of TS's for a better word and have thought of them as ladies every single moment that I have been with them. I also admire them highly for the courage that they have as a whole to have the guts to change thier entire lives and go through all the turmoil of daily living. From what I have seen all TS ladies take more pride in thier appearance than most GG's because they emotionally and physically had to sacrifice --- not just been given it.

OK attack away

[jimnaseum]

Hey, I wrote Bionca TWO loveletters, she COMPLETELY ignored me!!

Bionca Darling, When you pass up all the rejects and retards at your local bar and go home with the hipsters and sex athletes, do you worry that you treated the "unattractive people" unfairly?

SHEMALE, CHIX with DIX, that's all sex drivel. Scientists have determined that consuming 6 alcohol beverages sets back human evolution 10,000 years. Mutts that fuck neighborhood bitches in heat? THAT'S ROMANTIC. Lions that choose a mate for life and raise a family? THAT'S RESPECT. An average guy trying to figure out what to call a dude with tits and stiletto heels? THAT'S RIDICULOUS!

I think that self respect and respect for others might be the determining factor for a better world and better a human being, not so much for transgender issues, but for a nuclear-missiled world where millions of children starve every year, ..... and Bionca Baby, I don't care if you ignore me (now that MandyTgirl is here) ........I just think that transgender issues are more personal than social, I'm prouder of Bionca more for all the good works she's done here than her riveting little breasts, and all Pearls begin as an irritating little piece of sand.

[Bionca]

Originally Posted by jimnaseum

Hey, I wrote Bionca TWO loveletters, she COMPLETELY ignored me!!

Bionca Darling, When you pass up all the rejects and retards at your local bar and go home with the hipsters and sex athletes, do you worry that you treated the "unattractive people" unfairly?

SHEMALE, CHIX with DIX, that's all sex drivel. Scientists have determined that consuming 6 alcohol beverages sets back human evolution 10,000 years. Mutts that fuck neighborhood bitches in heat? THAT'S ROMANTIC. Lions that choose a mate for life and raise a family? THAT'S RESPECT. An average guy trying to figure out what to call a dude with tits and stiletto heels? THAT'S RIDICULOUS!

I think that self respect and respect for others might be the determining factor for a better world and better a human being, not so much for transgender issues, but for a nuclear-missiled world where millions of children starve every year, ..... and Bionca Baby, I don't care if you ignore me (now that MandyTgirl is here) ........I just think that transgender issues are more personal than social, I'm prouder of Bionca more for all the good works she's done here than her riveting little breasts, and all Pearls begin as an irritating little piece of sand.

I really don't know what you are getting at.

Trans issues are quite personal... however, they have very real social implications. Try getting a job when your ID says "F" and every other bit of government paperwork says "M". Try dating where the only reference anyone has to a body like yours is porn, and these people seem to believe that in this one case, porn is totally true.

You have no idea what happens when I go out. Here ya go...

I hate going out to bars for two reasons. 1) If I get hit on, it's hard for me to say "no". I know how hard it is to work up the gumption to ask someone out. So, I tend to at least have a conversation with any guy who isn't too pushy or creepy. 2) I absolutely hate telling guys I'm trans. There is never a good time to do it and you always risk as ass-beating doing so.

How I pick guys to date I don't see as any particular mystery. I an attracted to charm, wit, and smiles. I have some body types I tend to go for more than others... you know like normal folks do.

Since shemale is only used in porn and escorting - it would be like going to any woman in a bar and saying "I have always been attracted to whores, and I'd like to take you out". Now what your you expect would be the reaction?

[Bionca]

Originally Posted by franalexes

Chaulk one up for Tracy.
Bionca, I think the term here is "GOTCHA! " You want a guy(xy) that will treat you as xx but who is not looking for a xx.

Nope- I'm looking for a guy who can respect me as a human, not an exotic sexual treat. Also, had Tracy actually read the post she quoted, she would have seen a few suggestions for what terms to use when required.

[shadows]

Originally Posted by Bionca

Nope- I'm looking for a guy who can respect me as a human, not an exotic sexual treat. Also, had Tracy actually read the post she quoted, she would have seen a few suggestions for what terms to use when required.

As I am one of those guys, I know that we are out there(in fact, there are some fellow respectful gentlemen to be found here as well).

I don't believe anybody deserves to be beaten, just because they are sexualy different, I think they do it because you bring out feelings that makes them think their gay, and it angers them, instead of going with their feelings, they become violent. Cowards, maybe not, just not in touch with their feelings, like some of us. This happened to me and I went with it, glad I did.

Originally Posted by jmad

I don't believe anybody deserves to be beaten, just because they are sexualy different, I think they do it because you bring out feelings that makes them think their gay, and it angers them, instead of going with their feelings, they become violent. Cowards, maybe not, just not in touch with their feelings, like some of us. This happened to me and I went with it, glad I did.

Their "feelings" are their problem. Yes they are cowards. Attacking someone because they are "different" is despicable.

One of my main causes is stopping the violence toward the LGBT community. Maybe because I have friends who have suffered. Maybe because I find the idea of someone beating up a person they presumably went home with because they were attracted to--only to turn violent--especially heinous. Maybe because I am capable of doing something about it.

The next time someone "feels" like that, I hope that they will come to see me instead. We'll talk about it...

[JodieTs]

I'm pretty much stealth all the time,
in that I don't shout my trans status anywhere
People see me and see whatever they want to see.
believe whatever they want to believe.

I do date, and quite early on, involves
"That conversation"
It used to really bother me, but now it doesn't.
This following blog post helped me get my head round things.
I now smile, wink, & say I'm a packin'...then tell them 'that stuff'
I just need to stop thinking about writing a written apology for the anatomical layout of my body,to anyone who finds me attractive.
Yep. I really mentally do think that
The following is the most awesome trans-related thing I have ever read.

http://therealkellyshore.info/2009/11/05/my-wish/

Stop Oppression. We can do it if we just be ourselves with out word slinging and violence.
Why is it we transpeople feel we need to talk back to a group of guys that clocked us in public.
Why do we need to escalate it so its another transsexuals? death in vain.
A beautiful individual working her/his way down the path of peace within her/his self.
The peace they will never be allowed over an escalated argument or dating a man or woman under false pretences.
I?ll go more into this topic later.
It?s a minute out of our day that we were name called, but we have 23:59 to keep on our path and the rest of our lives.
I say lets bury our pride and worry about ourselves and safety first.
Too many transsexual deaths? come from escalating the issue of hate.
We think standing up and yelling back at the person/persons emotionally abusing us,
is going to make them change their mind or change what was said that made us so mad.
I can tell you it wont.
I have always believed you can always catch more bees with honey.
When we decide to take part in the word slinging it escalates the hate more.
It gives them the catalyst to make it easier to physically harm us. Who knows if that day it will be a beating or death.
Why play with fire people?


I don?t get why we give these people filled with hate so much power over our lives?
We should worry more about what we think of ourselves and what our loved ones think,
before instigating a mob of haters. So they called us a fag, a man, a freak, a pervert,
or whatever lame attempt they can throw at us let them have it.
In the end we know who we are and what path we are on.
Let the them have their view, if thats what it takes to keep us safe for another day.
We still have our view, they haven?t taken it from us.
The media may strip us as they like, but we know who we are and thats what is important.
Hold dear to things in you life you value and love.
Remember that tomorrow we most likely wont even remember the incident the day before.
This keeps us safe and gives us the time we need to achieve our genders we need to be viewed as, live as, and love as.
Escalating hate with flinging words can result in having our life ripped away from us.
Remember time is precious, life is precious, and lying on a morgue table is not a wish I have for myself.
My wish is to get these men and women that have beat us and murdered us not have the option of a slap on the wrist with a thing called a sanity plea.
That judicial systems finally start seeing these crimes as hate crimes, and giving them the full punishment of the law.
We need to stop giving these people the angle they need to be set free for our deaths.


Lastly with ladies and gentleman that go around tricking men and women on dates.
I beg you to think of your actions before you keep practising this habit.
I realize you need to be treated as your gender, and maybe you think in your head you can?t be treated solely as that gender if they know.
I assure you this isn?t true!
Lets remember our dead.
Lets remember the beautiful teen Gwen Araujo who played with fire and in the end was burnt.
No she did not deserve this, she was a teen girl wanting to do what every teen girl does her age.
It would be great if we had the luxury of living as any other teen girl,
but we as transwomen have limitations we need to understand this and embrace this.
To protect ourselves.
To stop our murders.
Lets stop giving these people filled with so much hate an excuse to dismiss who we are so easily by killing us.
I am sure I?ll get many debaters on this, saying this is cowardly, but dear it?s smart.
Why throw away your life so easily?
Why do you feel the need to give these people who you only knew for that instant so much power on who we are?
This issue goes on a lot with transmen also tricking women,
violence is less in these instances,
but please remember Brandon.
Another young transperson wanting to be viewed as what he was.
A man.
He wanted to fall in love like everyone does, but loving under false pretenses under any admission will never work out.
There are those rare and lucky cases where tricking did turn out good for the transmen and women,
but don?t base these rare chances on fact or your fate.


Lets talk about what we should do.
Lets ignore the people that don?t understand us on the streets,
and put our anger towards getting our voices heard politically,
by openminded supporters, and by each other.
Lets stop hating on one another and focus this energy on getting transwomen and men
jobs, opportunities, and equal rights.
Lets try to figure out a plan to make sex work less of a stigma of what transsexuals are and do.
Let transwomen and men that have the means open businesses and hire other transpeople.
Many are doing this now, lets stick to doing this.
Lets work on helping our weak and making them strong, instead of focusing on the people who would rather see us dead.
Lets donate money to activist groups who are fighting for our rights in Washington, in our counties, and in our cities.
My wish is to become a more unified, caring, and helping community.
Rather than a community that reads one another, because one girl is less transitioned than the next.
My wish is the lover of transwomen and men stand with us to battle discrimination and oppression.
That they will be proud to say I love transsexuals for whatever their reasoning.
My wish is to see less transsexuals having money for sex and more mainstream jobs.
Even if it?s just stripping.
My wish is to bring our sisterhood and brotherhood together instead of transmen being on one side and transwomen on the other.
Lets stop oppression now.
Lets use our voices to uplift, instead of defending all the time.
Most of all lets stop our murders,
thats my wish.

I would love to see trans-couples come forward to talk about their successes.
Their love.
Their normalcy.
To help educate.
I know there are many couples out there but so little come out and talk, all you hear is about escorts.
We need to make a stand with empowerment and education, not with idle words and comebacks.
It leaves us nowhere!
XoXo

Kelly

[enigma1965]

All of of you look great its to bad these things happen I wish there was some thing I could do to help.

[cgeissler]

I remain baffled in the end by any attitude other than respect. It takes courage and LOADS of patience, not to mention the time and money to go through with transition. I just don't understand.