pics of you?

[eliogabalo]

This issue is very complicated. Many Europeans feel annoyed because the Americans think they are the "standard-bearers" of freedom, democracy and civil rights in the world. This fact, from our point of view, is a sort of embezzlement. You see; i live in Florence, the city in wich, in the year 1786, Pietro Leopoldo di Lorena abolished the Death Sentence. When i think that in the USA the Death Sentence is still a sad reality, i find very hard to understand the american attitude. The same thing can be said for the second world war. Apart the issue of the political and economic interests of the USA in the war, the american contribution was very important. But the contribution of England and, above all, of the Soviet Union ( 20 millions of Russians dead fighting against Hitler !!), was really huge.
We admire the USA very much and feel very attracted by their fascinating culture based on freedom and individualism. Nevertheless, we have the feeling the Americans take the credit for everything is happened in the modern history ...

[mykel73]

Originally Posted by eliogabalo

This issue is very complicated. Many Europeans feel annoyed because the Americans think they are the "standard-bearers" of freedom, democracy and civil rights in the world. This fact, from our point of view, is a sort of embezzlement. You see; i live in Florence, the city in wich, in the year 1786, Pietro Leopoldo di Lorena abolished the Death Sentence. When i think that in the USA the Death Sentence is still a sad reality, i find very hard to understand the american attitude. The same thing can be said for the second world war. Apart the issue of the political and economic interests of the USA in the war, the american contribution was very important. But the contribution of England and, above all, of the Soviet Union ( 20 millions of Russians dead fighting against Hitler !!), was really huge.
We admire the USA very much and feel very attracted by their fascinating culture based on freedom and individualism. Nevertheless, we have the feeling the Americans take the credit for everything is happened in the modern history ...

You have a very good point, and maybe it's the way I way brought up but I have always told my friends that they need to remember that we (other Americans and I) are not the only nation out there. We where never meant to be the peace keepers of the world. That is why we have the UN, and we have no right to tell another nation how to govern them selves when we are so divided at home. I love my Country but sometimes we can be full of our selves and I'm ashamed of that fact.

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by mykel73

You have a very good point, and maybe it's the way I way brought up but I have always told my friends that they need to remember that we (other Americans and I) are not the only nation out there. We where never meant to be the peace keepers of the world. That is why we have the UN, and we have no right to tell another nation how to govern them selves when we are so divided at home. I love my Country but sometimes we can be full of our selves and I'm ashamed of that fact.

I still think we should move this debate to another thread, but so be it.

Mykel, by my view there's always two sides to a coin. And if these two sides represent the extremes then the true solution is probably some where in the middle. In America you have the right wing currently of the impression that anybody against your current president is, indeed, against America - on the other extreme you have the isolationists that believe that America should withdraw from any international interaction. In Europe we have the people readily accepting ANY THING coming from America as gospel - and on the other side the anti-Americans that only see the CocaColas, the hand guns and the Bushes...

They all represent simplified views of a complex world.

We all need each other in this world - now more than ever - and to succesfully face the giant challenges ahead of us we need to work together and to take equal part. American and European history are united - well, American culture is primarily based on Europe and to imagine a world where these two parts do not interact is ridiculous.

But now other parts of the world are coming along as equal partners - and then it is our duty to welcome these new players in a positive spirit. South East Asia for example is on the move and can contribute tremendously to the development of this world in the right direction.

So, it's looking promising if we can just accept each other and learn the good and the bad from different societies.

I have to disagree a little bit with you, though. You said that it is not America's job to be a peace-keeper. I believe you are wrong in that opinion. Obviously, going to war in sinister Middle Eastern countries is not an example of peace keeping. How ever, history shows that if America does not actively participate then we might all be in serious trouble.

H

[eliogabalo]

Every time a nation is very powerful, it assumes the role of peace-keeper and civilizer of the world, but it always ends up looking only after its interests.
So did the Roman Empire, so the Spain, so the Soviet Union, so the England ... now it's the turn of the USA. Perhaps i'm a bit pessimist, but i think this is unavoidable.
Regarding human and civil rights, i think some European nations are at the moment the most advanced in the world: Holland, England; French and the amazing Spain of Zapatero, who introduced in a catholic country the homosexual marriage.

[Ogryn1313]

It all got started because I posted a pic of myself and my arsenal. A damned pity I didn't have any other pic of myself to post. Yeah yeah, I get it. America is the worst country in the world. So inferior to Europeans. You know, I go to another website which sadly has less intellectual people than this good site. And day in and day out it's nothing but a hate filled, bash America, the president, Christians and other stuff. Very few people on that other site have informed opinions and just spout off far left dogma.
I agree, if this site has a forum section for such stuff that'd be good. But I'll be keeping out of it. This site is my alternative to that hateful other one. If I had known my pic would spawn this shit I'd not have posted it.
Is it possible I can take it down and remove my posts?

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by Ogryn1313

It all got started because I posted a pic of myself and my arsenal. A damned pity I didn't have any other pic of myself to post. Yeah yeah, I get it. America is the worst country in the world. So inferior to Europeans. You know, I go to another website which sadly has less intellectual people than this good site. And day in and day out it's nothing but a hate filled, bash America, the president, Christians and other stuff. Very few people on that other site have informed opinions and just spout off far left dogma.
I agree, if this site has a forum section for such stuff that'd be good. But I'll be keeping out of it. This site is my alternative to that hateful other one. If I had known my pic would spawn this shit I'd not have posted it.
Is it possible I can take it down and remove my posts?

Come on, Ogryn, my man...

Nobody is hateful here - and it's a good and healthy debate. Nobody has expressed anti-American sentiments here. We're just sharing views. Of course a pic of you showing a personal arsenal of a size that would make most medium sized Latin American countries DREWL evokes comments... but take it as it is. Nobody is after you or any one else personally. Look at it from the humouristic side as well :-)

Your points of view are as right or wrong as any body else's here. So don't go overly sensitive now!

But yes, we really should move this interesting exchange of opinions on to another thread. I already pm'ed the moderator, but so far no reply.

So Ogryn, no chickening out now... with that impressive arsenal none of us would stand a chance any ways ;-)

Loosen up a bit, man!

Peace!

Hank

[eliogabalo]

I'm sorry to hear that this pacific debate has offended a member. My english is defective and it's possible that i expressed badly my opinions.
Ogryn, i ensure you that USA are very admired in Europe for many reasons, for example the freedom of the press and the laicity of the institutions. I've only criticised the "superiority complex" that always troubles the strong and powerful nations as you are. Here nobody hates the american people. Perhaps the love for your country has made you hypersensitive.
I think it's important to have a critical mind regarding the behaviour of the politicians. The american politicians are the only that used the atomic bomb against a helpless population, and have the biggest arsenal of nuclear weapons in the world. How can they be credible as peace-keeper and policemen of the world ? Don't be so nationalist !