Nuclear Power (spun off from Japan earthquake discussion)

[ila]

There are some things to put in perspective in this situation. The first is that the media are creating needles hysteria by writing about a nuclear meltdown. None of the reactors have experienced a meltdown and there is not much likelihood of one happening.

The earthquake did not cause the problems at the reactor site. It was the tsunami that flooded the generators that run the pumps that cool the reactor. Because the generators were flooded they were not able to pump coolant which led to the overheating problems. This powerplant is forty years old and among the first generation. Generation III reactors are cooled through convection action and therefore do not require pumps to move the coolant. This means that the reactors will be cooled regardless of outside influences.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by ila

There are some things to put in perspective in this situation. The first is that the media are creating needles hysteria by writing about a nuclear meltdown. None of the reactors have experienced a meltdown and there is not much likelihood of one happening.

The earthquake did not cause the problems at the reactor site. It was the tsunami that flooded the generators that run the pumps that cool the reactor. Because the generators were flooded they were not able to pump coolant which led to the overheating problems. This powerplant is forty years old and among the first generation. Generation III reactors are cooled through convection action and therefore do not require pumps to move the coolant. This means that the reactors will be cooled regardless of outside influences.

Yes the newer designs are much improved, it's too bad the older reactors were not upgraded to the safer technology.
But, again, there is no assurance that some unforeseen event or design problem could cause failure in the newer designs. Its all about risk assessment.

The book "The Black Swan" is a very interesting read.

[franalexes]

I don't think they thought that the tsunami would take out the emergency generators that were needed to run the cooling pumps.

[ila]

Originally Posted by franalexes

I don't think they thought that the tsunami would take out the emergency generators that were needed to run the cooling pumps.

That was the big problem. They didn't plan for a tsunami so big. If the generators had been mounted quite a bit higher off the ground there wouldn't have been a problem.

[MistressStevie]

In a couple years this disaster will be viewed as a fantastic learning opportunity for examining what to do right when every thing nature throws at you is outside any expected events. Tsunamis are rare at best. Earthquakes a bit ore. 9.0 earthquakes under your nuclear plant are what we in statistics call tail events.

Tokyo Electric is doing incredible work. Could they do better--you go try. What could they have done better? Everything. But with hindsight none of us would ever make bad decisions.

Time to clean up the mess, learn, and keep building as that is what humans do.
To Engineer is HUMAN! To mock and cry the sky is falling is worthless.

-mS

[randolph]

Originally Posted by MistressStevie

In a couple years this disaster will be viewed as a fantastic learning opportunity for examining what to do right when every thing nature throws at you is outside any expected events. Tsunamis are rare at best. Earthquakes a bit ore. 9.0 earthquakes under your nuclear plant are what we in statistics call tail events.

Tokyo Electric is doing incredible work. Could they do better--you go try. What could they have done better? Everything. But with hindsight none of us would ever make bad decisions.

Time to clean up the mess, learn, and keep building as that is what humans do.
To Engineer is HUMAN! To mock and cry the sky is falling is worthless.

-mS

This is all fine if we don't have thousands exposed to radiation. Nuclear "accidents" are far more serious than any other kind of human disaster. Tsunamis can kill thousands. Volcanoes can kill thousands. Wars can kill thousands. But when they are over, they are over. Nuclear radiation can go on for generations.
Can we learn from this disaster? Actually, we (humans) knew early on what should have been done to prevent this debacle, but we didn't do it. Economics prevailed over maximum safety.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by randolph

This is all fine if we don't have thousands exposed to radiation. Nuclear "accidents" are far more serious than any other kind of human disaster. Tsunamis can kill thousands. Volcanoes can kill thousands. Wars can kill thousands. But when they are over, they are over. Nuclear radiation can go on for generations.
Can we learn from this disaster? Actually, we (humans) knew early on what should have been done to prevent this debacle, but we didn't do it. Economics prevailed over maximum safety.

A review of Chernobyl is here.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504803_1...ag=component.0

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by ila

There are some things to put in perspective in this situation. The first is that the media are creating needles hysteria by writing about a nuclear meltdown. None of the reactors have experienced a meltdown and there is not much likelihood of one happening.

I wouldn't say that. Radiation levels continue to rise. They just said radiation levels are unexpectedly high 18 miles away from the reactors, which is outside the evacuation area.

[TracyCoxx]

There are workers going into the plants, 50 at a time since exposure of more than 15 minutes would be lethal, trying to prevent a meltdown. Despite the protective gear they are wearing, I think these heros have given their lives to shutting down the reactors.

[ila]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

I wouldn't say that. Radiation levels continue to rise. They just said radiation levels are unexpectedly high 18 miles away from the reactors, which is outside the evacuation area.

This is meaningless. High in relation to what? Also radiation levels have been falling.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by ila

This is meaningless. High in relation to what? Also radiation levels have been falling.

Perhaps the radiation levels have dropped in Japan because the winds have carried the radiation to California.

[ila]

Originally Posted by randolph

Perhaps the radiation levels have dropped in Japan because the winds have carried the radiation to California.

No that's not it.

[MistressStevie]

Radiation is scary stuff. But the universe is radioactive. Everywhere. Some places more so than others. We know that high concentrations are dangerous. We believe that exposure over time may have impacts on health but studies on that are not conclusive. People in careers that have higher exposure than the population on the whole appear to live longer.

So what does this mean: Be cautious of radiation. But, do not let fear mongers frighten you. Now, after this is all cleaned up, who want to bet that ever nuke plant in the west is updated for Tsunami proofing?

There will be little long term effect from the radiation here. It will be an expensive mess to clean up though.

-mS

[smc]

Originally Posted by MistressStevie

...There will be little long term effect from the radiation here. It will be an expensive mess to clean up though.

Given that every noted expert in the world seems to agree that we don't yet know how serious the Japanese situation is or will become, you sure do seem pretty certain of there being "little long term effect." Are you a lobbyist for the nuclear power industry? I ask because they are running around Congressional offices in Washington saying the same thing, while delivering the equivalent of bags of money to legislators. Just sayin' ...

[randolph]

Originally Posted by MistressStevie

Radiation is scary stuff. But the universe is radioactive. Everywhere. Some places more so than others. We know that high concentrations are dangerous. We believe that exposure over time may have impacts on health but studies on that are not conclusive. People in careers that have higher exposure than the population on the whole appear to live longer.

So what does this mean: Be cautious of radiation. But, do not let fear mongers frighten you. Now, after this is all cleaned up, who want to bet that ever nuke plant in the west is updated for Tsunami proofing?

There will be little long term effect from the radiation here. It will be an expensive mess to clean up though.

-mS

It is way to early to assume there will be no radiation effect here from the nuclear mess in Japan. During WWII the Japanese made balloons, attached bombs to them and released them. they drifted over the Pacific ocean and landed in Oregon. Some of them were found and exploded when touched.
WE ARE DOWN WIND!