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Nuclear Power (spun off from Japan earthquake discussion)
They are evacuating the workers from the power plant due to a spike in rads.
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There's talk in the US that because of what's going on in Japan that we should forget plans for building nuclear reactors. Unlike Japan, our entire country is not San Andreas fault, and we don't have quite the tsunami risk that Japan has. There are areas in the US that does have risks like these, but we don't have to build reactors there. Sure this is obvious, but probably not to politicians. |
Obama's director of energy development has announced that the US should continue building nuclear plants despite what has happened in Japan. This seems very premature. We don't know yet how the nuclear disaster in Japan is going to play out. All the assurances about nuclear safety over the years are out the window. There has been controversy over the GE Mark 1 reactor since the 1970's. Is the containment vessel strong enough to withstand a coolant failure? Well, we will soon see.
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Obviously, a reactor situated in Japan is going to be more succeptible to such things as tsunamis and earthquakes given that they are 1) on a relatively teeny weeny island compared to other land masses and that the effects of things are going to be much greater than say, Australia or Africa, 2) they are on a region of the sea known as The Ring of Fire( http://celebrating200years.noaa.gov/...f_fire_650.jpg )which is known for its violent and constant seismic activity and 3) that most of the fault lines near Japan are underwater and that tsunamis can occur in the event that the earthquake is powerful enough. A powerplant by the coast and an active fault line has alot more risks than one sitting above bedrock in the middle of nowhere. Does that mean that nuclear power is a bad investment? Not really. What can be taken away is that there needs to be a bit more planning in where reactors are put and that there should be a certain planned obsolescence where old technologies are either updated or replaced altogether. Just because someone gets into a car accident does not mean cars are unsafe and should never be used. There just needs to be a healthy amount of risk anticipation and mitigation when using such technology is all. :) |
Conquistidor
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There are still Mark 1 reactors in this country. Their containment vessel is much less robust that subsequent GE plants. That said, there has been no failure of any Mark 1 containment vessels. However, we still don't know if one has failed in Japan. The Japanese were well aware of the risk of placing nuclear plants on the East coast of the country and they planned carefully. They assumed a potential tsunami created by a 7.2 earthquake to be the maximum. They built a 25 foot breakwater wall around the plant. They installed backup diesel generators to maintain water levels in the reactor in case of a failure. Well, instead of a 7.2, they had a 9.0! A 9.0 is many times more powerful than a 7.2 and the tsunami created, rushed over the breakwater as if it wasn't there. Severe damage was done to the plant including the diesel backup generators. Mother nature seems to have a habit of doing in man's the best laid plans. |
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The 2 Giant Titties! http://media.trb.com/media/photo/2009-08/48572366.jpg |
Conquistador
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1-The mark 1 was "popular" because it was cheaper to build. 2- It is cheaper to build next to the ocean for cooling and accessibility. Cost vs safety levels is where decisions are made. A traditional steam plant has minimal public risk. A nuclear plant has extreme public risk. Are nuclear plants worth the risk? If nuclear plants are designed and built to be virtually risk free to the public, the cost would be prohibitive. They would probably need to be buried deep in solid rock mountains. So we build nuclear plants and take a risk with public lives. |
There are some things to put in perspective in this situation. The first is that the media are creating needles hysteria by writing about a nuclear meltdown. None of the reactors have experienced a meltdown and there is not much likelihood of one happening.
The earthquake did not cause the problems at the reactor site. It was the tsunami that flooded the generators that run the pumps that cool the reactor. Because the generators were flooded they were not able to pump coolant which led to the overheating problems. This powerplant is forty years old and among the first generation. Generation III reactors are cooled through convection action and therefore do not require pumps to move the coolant. This means that the reactors will be cooled regardless of outside influences. |
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But, again, there is no assurance that some unforeseen event or design problem could cause failure in the newer designs. Its all about risk assessment. The book "The Black Swan" is a very interesting read. |
I don't think they thought that the tsunami would take out the emergency generators that were needed to run the cooling pumps.
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In a couple years this disaster will be viewed as a fantastic learning opportunity for examining what to do right when every thing nature throws at you is outside any expected events. Tsunamis are rare at best. Earthquakes a bit ore. 9.0 earthquakes under your nuclear plant are what we in statistics call tail events.
Tokyo Electric is doing incredible work. Could they do better--you go try. What could they have done better? Everything. But with hindsight none of us would ever make bad decisions. Time to clean up the mess, learn, and keep building as that is what humans do. To Engineer is HUMAN! To mock and cry the sky is falling is worthless. -mS |
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Can we learn from this disaster? Actually, we (humans) knew early on what should have been done to prevent this debacle, but we didn't do it. Economics prevailed over maximum safety. |
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http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504803_1...ag=component.0 |
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Certainly the combination of earthquake and tsunami that devastated the nuclear plants in Japan was a rare and unusual event. The destruction of power lines to the plant and damage to the plumbing, pumps and backup generators has prevented rapid stabilization of the nuclear facilities. Could this happen here? I think it is very doubtful such a catastrophic event could happen here. That's not to say that our nuclear facilities are one hundred percent reliable, however. We have 23 GE Mark 1 nuclear reactors similar to the ones in Japan. As long as the coolant water system is functioning, they seem to be fine. Newer plants rely on convection cooling rather than pumps. Pehaps, it is time to retire the Mark 1s. Oh wait! we have an oil problem, don't we! |
There are workers going into the plants, 50 at a time since exposure of more than 15 minutes would be lethal, trying to prevent a meltdown. Despite the protective gear they are wearing, I think these heros have given their lives to shutting down the reactors. :(
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But yes, we have an oil problem, which is not helped by the moratoreum on drilling in the gulf. BO wants to (or has he already) tax coal into oblivion. He continues to restrict drilling in the gulf. If politicians succeed in shutting down nuclear reactors here then what then? Are we supposed to power our country with windmills? |
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Humm, I wonder what's going on. :censored: |
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Prices change because of fluctuations in supply of and demand for goods as well as supply of and demand for money. Most people tend to forget about the money issue. The theory is based on the assumption that greater supply and less demand of GOODS caused by a recession will lead to lower prices. Keep in mind that the money supply is always expanding, which automatically leads to a continuous inflationary pressure -- which may or may not rear its ugly head as actual inflation in the economy, depending on other circumstances. If wages remain low and economic growth is stagnant or declining, as in a recession, the pressure on manufacturers and sellers of goods with respect to prices may not necessarily work as one would expect. Depending on the particularities of the recession at any given moment, some prices may be increased to compensate for the shortfall in overall sales of goods. That equals inflation. |
From Huffingtonpost
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Radiation is scary stuff. But the universe is radioactive. Everywhere. Some places more so than others. We know that high concentrations are dangerous. We believe that exposure over time may have impacts on health but studies on that are not conclusive. People in careers that have higher exposure than the population on the whole appear to live longer.
So what does this mean: Be cautious of radiation. But, do not let fear mongers frighten you. Now, after this is all cleaned up, who want to bet that ever nuke plant in the west is updated for Tsunami proofing? There will be little long term effect from the radiation here. It will be an expensive mess to clean up though. -mS |
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WE ARE DOWN WIND! :frown: |
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To those people I say keep up the fight. Don't let the government fool you into false complacency. I have a miracle syrum that I have developed called di-hydrogen oxide that the government does not want you to know about. It does wonders. It can be yours for $499.00 for a one year supply. |
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By the way, I have a swimming pool full of your secret syrup if you run short. :lol: |
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Basically it all comes down to this, it appears that the containment is working in Japan. Not perfectly though as a 9.0 Earthquake and 15 meter tsunami are outside any design considerations. If you see pictures of the containment systems breached--then get nervous. Up until then, the press is playing this for shock value and ratings. And the chicken little crowd is running with it. I am not too proud to say that after this all plays out--I will adjust my opinion if I am found to be wrongly pro-nuclear power. But, right now there are good people working to minimize the damage. Catch this: They built a power line in days. Normally it takes years to build a power line anywhere. So the best and brightest are working to minimize damage. And--I believe in people! -mS |
This is the very reason not to build them, The Unknown. It's like mother nature is getting the blame again. I live within a 100 miles of Diablo Cyn. and I still say no one has the right to risk my ass to make money, and this is what the bottom line is.
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Trucking Companies drive trucks to bring food to you. Some are involved in accidents. Another risk. Society is a balancing of risk and it never gets to zero. If you look at the increases in average life span which have gone up consistently for the last 150 years of technological innovation we are doing something right. -mS |
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Humans don't seem to mind taking risks skiing, racing cars, parachuting, taking drugs, smoking and of course drinking. We enjoy taking risks. The problem is when the risk is imposed upon us, then it becomes a big problem.
A nuclear accident is viewed as an extreme threat because we have no control over it. The chances of being affected by radiation from Japan even if a meltdown occurs are extremely small and far less than smoking a cigarette. Four hundred thousand people a year die from smoking in the US. If that many people were dying from radiation a national emergency would be declared! It's all relative. |
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I am pro-nuclear power if that is not already evident. But more than anything I am totally against not learning how to do things better next time. And if we want to have power for our computers, it has to come from somewhere. I want that somewhere to be clean safe and cheap. If nuclear cannot compete on that it should go away. Coal is the only thing cheaper that we know of right now and it is fraught with dangers also. -mS |
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3 deaths, January 3, 1961, Idaho Falls, Idaho, US, SL-1, National Reactor Testing Station 2 deaths, September 30, 1999, Ibaraki Prefecture, Japan, Tokaimura uranium processing facility 5 deaths, August 9, 2004, Fukui Prefecture, Japan, Mihama Nuclear Power Plant March 28, 1979, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, US, Three Mile Island Nuclear Generating Station - 2 It released radioactive steam in the environment. 6 years later, cancer rates went at peak 150% up on the contaminated side (where the wind blew) compared to the not contaminated side. Cancer rates are higher and life expectations are lower near nuclear plants. It looks that there are many deaths caused by it, but direct causal connection is difficult to prove. It doesn?t have to be a western plant or accident. The Chernobyl disaster caused radioactive fallout over most of Europe. And in some areas mushrooms, plants and animals are still harmfully contaminated. Plutonium 239 and Uranium 238/235 have huge half-life times. It must be stored, buried or protected at minimum 1 million years. Mankind exists about 160,000 years. It can't be estimated what happens in this time, and how many will get harmfully radiated over that time. How to tell understandable warnings and instructions over a period much longer than humans exists? Who will notice if radioactivity, out of deep geological repository or a buried nuclear plant, reaches ground water? Test storage showed leaks (not to ground water yet) in less then 50 years. Radioactive resources are already or will be taken away (legal or illegal) from closed nuclear plans, nuclear submarines, radioactive waste and contaminated areas. No one checks if your car is build with steel from nuclear submarine with a meltdown. |
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In the US there are PLENTY of places to build nuclear reactors that are not on a fault, not where tsunamis can happen, not where hurricans are a danger, not where flooding can happen, not where there's a lot of tornados, etc. Humanity didn't get to where it is by having a defeatist attitude. When problems arise we can figure out how to design around them. I guess in Japan's case they were running out of options to power their country and unfortunately accepted known risks. |
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The Unknown is what is not expected. Who would have expected 10 years ago that a passenger plane hits the Pentagon? What if a happening like the one in Tunguska hits a nuclear plant? I know it?s very unlikely, but the outcome and especially the long term effects are absolutely unpredictable. Whole countries could be uninhabitable for 100,000?s of years. Quote:
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I'm just sick of fossil fuel lobbies capitalising on this, when Nuclear plants give off less radiation than coal plants do, over a normal operational lifespan...
And seriously, anyone who has ever had a CAT scan has had more radiation exposure than anyone in the area bar those actually entering the plant to cool the reactors. |
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