Liberal free for all coming to an end

[randolph]

Originally Posted by smc

I'm saddened to see you fall into this trap of "blaming" -- whether implicitly or explicitly -- working people for the current situation. Police, firemen, teachers, and other public workers are simply demanding what is theirs already. A pension is not a gift; it is part of the wage/benefit package that was negotiated contractually. And it is the very, very, very rare pension plan indeed that does not include a significant contribution from the worker herself or himself. So, all these public employees are demanding is to be paid the money that is THEIRS!



Why are counties, cities, and states so strapped? Not because the amount os the pensions are out of line. It is because the money was LOST. And who lost it? The very Wall Street bankers who, enabled by the politicians they own, used this money in their casino -- a casino that nearly brought down this country economically. They ran, and continue to run, a massive financial fraud and not a single one is under indictment or behind bars.

Put the blame where it belongs. Once we do that, we can begin the process of recovering the money stolen from working people by these criminals.

Certainly, workers earn and deserve a just retirement. However, the evidence suggests that at the time the retirement plan was negotiated, the ultimate costs were not projected. The plans were extremely generous, far beyond what would be considered reasonable.
The question is it justified to give some one a retirement higher than his final salary? Is it justified to play games with work time to raise the retirement even more? In the case of Riverside County, there is no evidence the money was "lost" it seems to be a case of bad fiscal planning and management.

[smc]

Originally Posted by randolph

Certainly, workers earn and deserve a just retirement. However, the evidence suggests that at the time the retirement plan was negotiated, the ultimate costs were not projected. The plans were extremely generous, far beyond what would be considered reasonable.
The question is it justified to give some one a retirement higher than his final salary? Is it justified to play games with work time to raise the retirement even more? In the case of Riverside County, there is no evidence the money was "lost" it seems to be a case of bad fiscal planning and management.

I'm even more saddened, now. You should review the meaning of the word you use, "just." Whether the plans were "far beyond ... reasonable" is at best a secondary point, and one that is worthy of consideration for future pension agreements. The primary point is one of ownership, as in ownership of the money that is being withheld. It does not belong to Riverside County; it belongs to the workers. And so, I ask, is it "just" to keep it from them? And if it simply does not exist to give to them, is it "just" to blame them for wanting what is rightfully theirs?

[randolph]

SMC

And so, I ask, is it "just" to keep it from them? And if it simply does not exist to give to them, is it "just" to blame them for wanting what is rightfully theirs?

The employees have a right to whatever was negotiated with the County. I am not blaming the employees for the lack of funds necessary to pay their retirements. Riverside County finances depend to a large extent on development fees and taxes. Development has crashed in this area resulting in severe economic distress for the County. As with other government agencies they spend more they can bring in. I doubt any agency keeps its retirement program fully funded at all times regardless of the current economy. Consequently, the County is faced with a future shortfall in its retirement system.
Is it fair that the taxpayers will ultimately be required to fork up the money to pay for these very generous retirements approved by County administraters? Needless to say Riverside County voters are thoroughly pissed off.

[smc]

Originally Posted by randolph

SMC

The employees have a right to whatever was negotiated with the County. I am not blaming the employees for the lack of funds necessary to pay their retirements. Riverside County finances depend to a large extent on development fees and taxes. Development has crashed in this area resulting in severe economic distress for the County. As with other government agencies they spend more they can bring in. I doubt any agency keeps its retirement program fully funded at all times regardless of the current economy. Consequently, the County is faced with a future shortfall in its retirement system.
Is it fair that the taxpayers will ultimately be required to fork up the money to pay for these very generous retirements approved by County administraters? Needless to say Riverside County voters are thoroughly pissed off.

No, it's not fair that taxpayers -- working people themselves -- should bear the brunt of this. As I wrote earlier, the answer, as far-fetched as it may seem, lies in addressing the criminal behavior of those who are truly responsible for the problem. There is MORE THAN ENOUGH money to pay these pensions, pay for universal healthcare, free college tuition for every American, daycare, job training, ... you name it. The problem is not how much money there is, but who has stolen it and continues to hoard it, and who enables this on the criminals' behalf (Democrats and Republicans alike).

The first step is to acknowledge the truth. I'm still waiting for that from you, Randolph. Based on what you've written many times, I'm finding it difficult to understand why it's taking so long. I recognize that you are probably one of those Riverside County taxpayers. But at the same time that you angrily accept your fate -- to have to pay for these pensions -- is it not possible to acknowledge that in doing so you are being stolen from by the very people who should be giving back the money for those pensions?

[randolph]

SMC

The first step is to acknowledge the truth. I'm still waiting for that from you, Randolph. Based on what you've written many times, I'm finding it difficult to understand why it's taking so long. I recognize that you are probably one of those Riverside County taxpayers. But at the same time that you angrily accept your fate -- to have to pay for these pensions -- is it not possible to acknowledge that in doing so you are being stolen from by the very people who should be giving back the money for those pensions?

In various posts, I have complained bitterly about the rape of the working class by the Wall Street banks and the complicity of our Federal government. Why aren't these criminals in jail? The laws are configured to punish the little guys while hoards of lawyers are able to get the rich off when and if they are charged with crimes. The horrendous loss of 401K savings by working people should be addressed by a heavy tax on the obscene profits accumulated by the rich investors. These funds would then be used to restore at least some of the 401K losses.

[franalexes]

Originally Posted by randolph

SMC

In various posts, I have complained bitterly about the rape of the working class by the Wall Street banks and the complicity of our Federal government. Why aren't these criminals in jail? The laws are configured to punish the little guys while hoards of lawyers are able to get the rich off when and if they are charged with crimes. The horrendous loss of 401K savings by working people should be addressed by a heavy tax on the obscene profits accumulated by the rich investors. These funds would then be used to restore at least some of the 401K losses.

You must have a democrat financial advisor. Why didn't you invest in the same thing the rich guys did? My 401K never went below its inital start and is worth today what it was before the big crash. Now it did lose. It was worth more when the market was at 14,000 , but that was un-sustainable. Today the market is 12,000? and my value is the same now, maybe a little more, than it was at 12,000 before. Stock market values only count on the day you cash out. Anything else is just paper.

[smc]

Originally Posted by franalexes

You must have a democrat financial advisor. Why didn't you invest in the same thing the rich guys did? My 401K never went below its inital start and is worth today what it was before the big crash. Now it did lose. It was worth more when the market was at 14,000 , but that was un-sustainable. Today the market is 12,000? and my value is the same now, maybe a little more, than it was at 12,000 before. Stock market values only count on the day you cash out. Anything else is just paper.

Note to all: "democrat" as used above in the quote has nothing to do with this discussion, and Fran knows it.

[smc]

Originally Posted by randolph

SMC

In various posts, I have complained bitterly about the rape of the working class by the Wall Street banks and the complicity of our Federal government. Why aren't these criminals in jail? The laws are configured to punish the little guys while hoards of lawyers are able to get the rich off when and if they are charged with crimes. The horrendous loss of 401K savings by working people should be addressed by a heavy tax on the obscene profits accumulated by the rich investors. These funds would then be used to restore at least some of the 401K losses.

That's right, and that's why I did not expect you to join the chorus of those who seek to divert attention away from the real culprits.