Middle East

[randolph]

Prior to WWII we were strongly isolationist as a country. the attack in Pearl Harbor changed that. As the war concluded it became obvious that the Soviet Union was becoming a threat to Western countries. Some of our generals proposed war to destroy that threat.
As an alternative, John Foster Dulles, Eisenhower's Sec. of State established the "containment" plan to surround the Soviet Union with military bases in countries friendly to us. This was the beginning of the cold war. We now have military bases in over fifty countries. We quickly realized this policy was an excellent way to make those countries dependent on military equipment and training. It also facilitated control over their economies that favored American companies. So we have economic tentacles around the world. The Soviet empire was contained but more importantly, the US empire controlled the world economically.
I am sure SMC can point out historically, that we treat out client states rather harshly if they don't toe the line and favor our corporate interests. The banana trade is a classic example. Destruction of any government that doesn't conform to our economic policies has been routine policy.
The revolution in Egypt is bound to have major effect on our policies. It demonstrates the hypocrisy of our words. And the fragility of our client states. It's about time we really support Democracy not just empty rhetoric.

[randolph]

Any of you guys remember this?

Most Baby Boomers probably remember a song that captured the widespread, out-of-control feelings that for many defined the Sixties. The anthem was about the nuclear threat hanging over the world (then as now):

Merry Minuet

They're rioting in Africa (whistling)
They're starving in Spain (whistling)
There's hurricanes in Flo-ri-da (whistling)
And Texas needs rain
The whole world is festering with unhappy souls
The French hate the Germans, the Germans hate the Poles
Italians hate Yugoslavs, South Africans hate the Dutch
AND I DON'T LIKE ANYBODY VERY MUCH!!
But we can be tranquil and thankful and proud
For man's been endowed with a mushroom-shaped cloud
And we know for certain that some lovely day Someone will set the spark off
AND WE WILL ALL BE BLOWN AWAY!!
They're rioting in Africa (whistling)
There's strife in Iran
What nature doesn't so to us
Will be done by our fellow "man"
Originally written by Broadway lyricist Sheldon Harnick, who also wrote Fiddler on the Roof and Fiorello!, She Loves Me with composer Jerry Bock. This satire was introduced by Orson Bean in the 1953 revue John Murray Anderson 's Almanac.

... by the Kingston Trio in a live performance recorded for their first in-concert album From the Hungry i LP 1959

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

Prior to WWII we were strongly isolationist as a country. the attack in Pearl Harbor changed that. As the war concluded it became obvious that the Soviet Union was becoming a threat to Western countries. Some of our generals proposed war to destroy that threat.
As an alternative, John Foster Dulles, Eisenhower's Sec. of State established the "containment" plan to surround the Soviet Union with military bases in countries friendly to us. This was the beginning of the cold war. We now have military bases in over fifty countries.

I take it you are not for this policy? Then would you have supported the other alternative - war with the Soviet Union? Or to just ignore the problem?

Originally Posted by randolph

The revolution in Egypt is bound to have major effect on our policies. It demonstrates the hypocrisy of our words. And the fragility of our client states. It's about time we really support Democracy not just empty rhetoric.

For now the revolution in Egypt has brought in military rule. Their other alternative is the Muslim Brotherhood. I doubt either option is a democracy. Remember the Lesson of Barack: Change isn't always good.

If the protests in Libya succeed they will almost certainly change their government for the better.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

I take it you are not for this policy? Then would you have supported the other alternative - war with the Soviet Union? Or to just ignore the problem?

For now the revolution in Egypt has brought in military rule. Their other alternative is the Muslim Brotherhood. I doubt either option is a democracy. Remember the Lesson of Barack: Change isn't always good.

If the protests in Libya succeed they will almost certainly change their government for the better.

We shoulda nuked them when we had the chance (not really). The containment worked and set the stage for the cold war. Was there an alternative? With Stalin in power, I doubt it. Russia was held together with brute force and massive insane purges of millions of Russians. Also, paranoia regarding the U.S.

We are entering a period of extreme uncertainty. Africa and the Middle East are coming unglued. People want freedom and equal rights. Can they get it or will one despot be replaced with another? It depends a lot on whether leaders emerge from the mob. The uprisings seem to consist primarily young people that are savvy on communicating and want a secular democratic government, i.e. a western style government. They are not a bunch of religious fanatics(thank God). Military rule may provide temporary control and stability. However, it is very tempting for generals to hang on to power. It is essential that there is joint civilian military leadership during the transition to full civilian leadership.
The critical question is the Western democracies are up to the task of helping these countries make the transition? History is not promising in this regard.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

We shoulda nuked them when we had the chance (not really). The containment worked and set the stage for the cold war. Was there an alternative? With Stalin in power, I doubt it. Russia was held together with brute force and massive insane purges of millions of Russians. Also, paranoia regarding the U.S.

Well you go on and on about the "military industrial complex" and here you're saying there wasn't really any other way.

[franalexes]

Originally Posted by randolph

We shoulda nuked them when we had the chance (not really). The containment worked and set the stage for the cold war. Was there an alternative? With Stalin in power, I doubt it. Russia was held together with brute force and massive insane purges of millions of Russians. Also, paranoia regarding the U.S.

.

Hindsight is always 20-20. I'm so pleased that six months ago Hillary said the mis-east countries were so stable.
Whatever comes from the mid-east, it will not be to our favor.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by franalexes

Hindsight is always 20-20. I'm so pleased that six months ago Hillary said the mis-east countries were so stable.
Whatever comes from the mid-east, it will not be to our favor.

Hindsite is better than foresite by a damnsite

The impression I have is that the Obama administration is in a state of shock. Fifty years of foreign policy is going down the drain and they(we) have no idea what to do about it.
Oh wait, we just approved 50 billion for refueling planes to feed strike fighters. Yes indeed this will help us against our enemies. Err, lets see, what enemies will strike fighters protect us against? Oh, well we will think of somebody, just give us a little time.

[TracyCoxx]

While the UN is about to condemn Qaddafi, the UN's Human Rights Council is about to release a report praising Lybia's human rights record.

This is while Lybia's citizens risk death to protest against their ruler and try to over throw him.

This speaks volumes about the UN's legitimacy.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

While the UN is about to condemn Qaddafi, the UN's Human Rights Council is about to release a report praising Lybia's human rights record.

This is while Lybia's citizens risk death to protest against their ruler and try to over throw him.

This speaks volumes about the UN's legitimacy.

The revelations coming out of Libya show how clueless the UN was regarding it's human rights. We need to take out Gaddafi immediately before he causes any more damage.