Liberal free for all coming to an end

[Enoch Root]

I see the way language plays here. Entitlement is a bad word, full of negative connotations. It draws the image of an unruly child holding his parents to the fire for something he doesn’t need yet keeps demanding. But the same could not be said of something like healtchcare. This is something people need. And if sacrifices must be made to give the people something as vital as that, then why not? This is not insidious. It is a matter of compassion for the fellow man.

Language. Politicians have a way of screwing with it, people will not necessarily notice. For example, I was watching the news the other day and a pundit tried to rebut something someone else said by calling what the man proposed “class warfare.” They were speaking of raising taxes on the wealthy. This, as anyone can see with enough time, is spin. It is using, manipulating, language. It poisons the well because of its violent tones. Yet the rich get richer and the poor get poorer—and I will not apologize for using such a clich?d sentence, for it is true and gets the point across. If anyone is waging “warfare” it is not the poor or the middle class waging war on the rich, but the other way around. It is a case of the victimizers making themselves out to be victims. It reminds me of opponents of same-sex marriage and all that good stuff claiming that same-sex couples do not deserve marriage because they are asking for “special” rights. When it is, in fact, the opponents who are obliquely asking for special rights since they wish for the ability to get married to be cordoned off only for heterosexual couples. In both cases those who claim “class warfare” is being waged against the rich or that same-sex couples are asking for “special” rights are manipulating language.

I remember wanting to tear at my scalp whenever I heard McCain spout his nonsense about “pulling oneself up by the bootstraps.” Tracy, you were born, fed and bred in a country that has no sense of community. No sense of solidarity. It is every man for himself. The cowboy is a national symbol! But no one can live by oneself. No man is an island. It is an illusion. Are we individuals? Yes. But being an individual is not about “me, me, me, me.” It is about growing. It is about knowing oneself. And from there, knowing others and loving others and caring for others. In your country, growing emotionally and intellectually and expressing that love is too often cause for discomfort. I know this. I lived in the United States for five years and learned this lesson quite well. And I was hurt over and again because I knew I could not truly be myself with most of the populace. I had to live, so to speak, in the closet.

You live in tiny rooms, in insulated houses, in suburbs, where no one knows your name. Rather than in the light, outside, amongst friends and family on whom to depend and whom to love. To depend is not a bad thing. We need other people and we need help. It is the human condition. But in your country, to depend on anything is seen as a bad thing. And the powers that be depend on you thinking so, so that, as SMC put it, they never have to contribute. So that they never have to sacrifice. Living instead off us to an extent, in total disregard of everyone the rest of the time. The idea that they should never sacrifice or that they do no wrong, that they are the economic engine of your country and therefore deserve all they make, is an idea better left to disappear into the wind. A fiction, and quite a fiction it is. I do not like the near-reverent tones of many people when they speak of “the free market.” They sound like proselytizers. The invisible hand of the free market… Much like a god behind all, an invisible arbiter.

I do not know your background Tracy. But I cannot help thinking that you were well taken care of when you were younger. That your parents had the means for ___ (whatever means those were for whatever you needed). Yet that is not the case for everyone. It is easy to say things like “pulling by one’s bootstraps” when you do have bootstraps and they are fine leather or some other material whose integrity has not been compromised. It is another when you are poor and live in a terrible neighborhood. It is not so easy to move up socially. It can take generations, when it could be made to much easier. Why shouldn’t we have such things as national healthcare where all are covered, and people need not worry about how to pay for college, and instead need only prepare the boxes and the car and send your child off to study? We shouldn’t have to drown ourselves in debt for these things and then get drowned in grief and depression over what that debt could do to us. These things should be our birthright—never to be taken for granted, always fought for, always to be cherished.

Often when I hear opposition to such things as a system where all are given healthcare or supplying higher education, it does not seem to truly be about financial concerns, but about disregard for anyone other than oneself. Is this the case with you? Or could I rest easy knowing it is not so? You say that now is not the time for something like healthcare reform—yet when will it be the time? I read such a thing from you and I cannot help thinking that it is but a stalling tactic, much as others have done for a decade now concerning allowing homosexuals into the army. Now is not the time, yet when there is relative peace there is still opposition. When will it be the time?

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

This is something people need. And if sacrifices must be made to give the people something as vital as that, then why not? This is not insidious. It is a matter of compassion for the fellow man.

What if the fellow man smokes and eats donuts for breakfast, a #6 supersized at McDonalds, snacks on candy in the afternoon, has fried chicken for dinner and rounds it off with ice cream every evening? Do my taxes pay for his triple heart bypass surgery?

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Tracy, you were born, fed and bred in a country that has no sense of community. No sense of solidarity. It is every man for himself. The cowboy is a national symbol! But no one can live by oneself.

Who are you to say that no one can live by their self? It's not your cup of tea, but it might be someone else's.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I do not know your background Tracy. But I cannot help thinking that you were well taken care of when you were younger. That your parents had the means for ___ (whatever means those were for whatever you needed).

My family was lower middle class. My parents didn't go to college. I worked through college and paid half my expenses for my bachelors and paid all my expenses for my masters. When I graduated I had no loans. The fact that I worked to pay for college was looked at by my employer as positive and showed that I had initiative. It also was looked at as valuable experience for the job. I now have 2 masters degrees and am in the upper middle class and support a family of 5 with my salary. I didn't have quite as far as those in poverty to pull my self up by my bootstraps but I did, and in doing so it made me more capable and I had to improve myself.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Often when I hear opposition to such things as a system where all are given healthcare or supplying higher education, it does not seem to truly be about financial concerns, but about disregard for anyone other than oneself. Is this the case with you? Or could I rest easy knowing it is not so?

If you think we do not care for anyone other than ourselves, look here. And that's just government contributions. American individuals donated $226 billion in charities last year. It would take 3 Frenchmen, or 7 Germans, or 14 Italians to equal the charitable donations of 1 American.

But the fact is we are facing collapse of the US dollar. When the US government spends $trillions on stimulus packages, that's not our money. That's other countries money like China, and we do it without considering their reaction. Isn't that a bit arrogant? Then on top of that we add the national health care program. There's another $trillion... surely the Chinese won't mind another trillion. How long can this last?

[TracyCoxx]

Speaking of bashing America, here's a pretty good article from one Canadian reporter in 1973 that had enough of it.

Originally Posted by Gordon Sinclair

America: The Good Neighbor.

This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times, and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake. Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those.

Stand proud, America!
Wear it proudly!!

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

What if the fellow man smokes and eats donuts for breakfast, a #6 supersized at McDonalds, snacks on candy in the afternoon, has fried chicken for dinner and rounds it off with ice cream every evening? Do my taxes pay for his triple heart bypass surgery?

Strawman, much?

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Strawman, much?

I have raised a valid point. A large part of our health problems are caused by what we eat and how we care for ourselves. This is entirely within our control. 25% of what you eat keeps you alive. The rest of what you eat keeps your doctor alive.

Dodge questions much? Please answer the question. Should my taxes go to pay for someones triple heart bypass surgery when they have trashed their own arteries?

[TracyCoxx]

Ok, it's getting deep in here. How bout a round for everyone

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Ok, it's getting deep in here. How bout a round for everyone

Hey great! Are us California wackos included? How about bringing in some hot shemales for a little R and R. I could fly to Texas for that.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

Hey great! Are us California wackos included? How about bringing in some hot shemales for a little R and R. I could fly to Texas for that.

That's ok, I'd rather go to California

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

I have raised a valid point. A large part of our health problems are caused by what we eat and how we care for ourselves. This is entirely within our control. 25% of what you eat keeps you alive. The rest of what you eat keeps your doctor alive.

Dodge questions much? Please answer the question. Should my taxes go to pay for someones triple heart bypass surgery when they have trashed their own arteries?

Still watiing...

[Enoch Root]

Tracy, you are already paying for this man. And he is very much a real man somewhere out there: round the corner, sitting behind you at the diner or the movie theater, maybe even a relative you rarely see or a relative you dearly love. You pay for this man by an increase in your, and everyone else’s, health insurance premiums, an increase that would not be there if this man had health insurance as well. You pay for this man by an increase in your taxes if his surgery was dealt with in a public hospital or Veteran’s Administration.

The inevitable conclusion is this: if indeed you wish never to have to pay for any individual then all public funding for this man, and all others like him, in need of surgery would have to cut. The question to you, then, is this: should there be NO public funding of healthcare, including Medicare? For that would be the only way you see no increase in your taxes or premiums.

[The Conquistador]

Quantitative easing explained: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTUY16CkS-k

And with cute little characters too!

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Tracy, you are already paying for this man. And he is very much a real man somewhere out there: round the corner, sitting behind you at the diner or the movie theater, maybe even a relative you rarely see or a relative you dearly love. You pay for this man by an increase in your, and everyone else?s, health insurance premiums, an increase that would not be there if this man had health insurance as well. You pay for this man by an increase in your taxes if his surgery was dealt with in a public hospital or Veteran?s Administration.

I'm paying for him if he works at my company and is in the same insurance group. There is probably some mixing of risks between various populations though. Do you think taxes should go to pay for the health problems of those who abuse their own bodies?