Liberal free for all coming to an end

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by smc

What would you CUT, Tracy Coxx? Are you willing to take a position? I am.

I would cut the $5.274 billion the United States gave to other countries in "foreign military financing" in 2010, of which Israel got $2.775 billion and Egypt got $1.3 billion. I would cut the $2.341 the United States gave to "International Financial Institutions funding" in 2010, enabling the World Bank and IMF to destroy local economies while seeking to convert agriculture and industry in the developing world to produce for export rather than to take care of the people in their own countries. I would eliminate the $1.947 billion from 2010 used for "International Narcotics Control and Law Enforcement funding." I would cut the Homeland Security Department's budget by at least 80 percent, from $42 billion to, say $10 billion, and I bet no one would notice that security has changed (except perhaps the most useless and asinine programs that the public sees). I would eliminate the overwhelming majority of the $671 billion that goes to the "Defense" Department (I put it in quotes because the name is a misnomer; when it was called the Department of War it was more accurate, and perhaps the "Offense" Department would be more appropriate today). And I would simply march out of Iraq and Afghanistan and stop the spending of $110 billion in the latter and $16 billion in the former.

There, budget crisis averted ... and not a single person, our American brothers and sisters, thrown into the streets in abject poverty, or having their school breakfasts taken away, or no longer getting the medical attention they need, or ... well, I think I've made my point.

You see, when the social safety net is dismantled, that really will be a "national emergency."

The idea of balancing the budget on the backs of working people rather than, say, General Electric -- which paid no taxes last year, or rather than raising taxes on the richest in the land, is an abomination, an indefensible abomination, of which a civilized country should be ashamed, and for which its apologists should be made to rot in hell.

I'm glad someone wrote something like this, finally. Where Tracy and her ilk chip away at my faith in humanity as they go about destroying lives, this post from you smc accomplishes the reverse. Yet the question remains: how many others in the US believe as you do? How many are not selfish monsters who begrudge a good life and real freedom to their brothers?

[Sissy Maid Lucy]

Economically, you cannot slash Defence spending as it is a major employer, both in terms of military personel, and engineering, manufacturing and related industries. Defence is a 'clever' part of the economy as it requires extensive R&D, and the technology then flows into general use.

Remember that Germany grew her economy in the 1930s by two main methods: nation-building (infrastructure etc) and military expenditure. This gave them a massive advantage early in WWII.

What the USA needs to do is get the money-go-round happening again. And reduce the power of the states and adopt a small-government policy (as governments waste money). And just chisel away at all government expenditure, trying to find at least a 15% saving in every department. And cut subsidies for agriculture to make your farmers almost as efficient as us Australians...

[smc]

Originally Posted by Sissy Maid Lucy

Economically, you cannot slash Defence spending as it is a major employer, both in terms of military personel, and engineering, manufacturing and related industries. Defence is a 'clever' part of the economy as it requires extensive R&D, and the technology then flows into general use.

Remember that Germany grew her economy in the 1930s by two main methods: nation-building (infrastructure etc) and military expenditure. This gave them a massive advantage early in WWII.

What the USA needs to do is get the money-go-round happening again. And reduce the power of the states and adopt a small-government policy (as governments waste money). And just chisel away at all government expenditure, trying to find at least a 15% saving in every department. And cut subsidies for agriculture to make your farmers almost as efficient as us Australians...

Thanks for reminding me that I left off my list the ridiculous subsidies given to agri-business (not small family farmers so much as mega-corporations in the agricultural sector) either to grow things we don't really use or NOT to grow things we could use.

As for your point about slashing defense spending, I could not disagree more. The solution is simple: reemploy people in public works and human services, and watch the economy soar as the social benefits accrue to everyone, not just some rich military-industrial-complex fat cats and the politicians in their pockets.

[Sissy Maid Lucy]

Originally Posted by smc

As for your point about slashing defense spending, I could not disagree more. The solution is simple: reemploy people in public works and human services, and watch the economy soar as the social benefits accrue to everyone, not just some rich military-industrial-complex fat cats and the politicians in their pockets.

The problem with that argument is that military industry jobs are 'clever' jobs - minimum of a bachelor-degree. And it is about new science and technology advancement. Public works and human services are generally not going to employ the intellectuals - there are only so many bridges that can be built! A school friend of mine here in Australia did a degree in electronic and mechanical engineering... 80% of his classmates work in military-related jobs, 15% in mining, 5% automotive. And there is a surprisingly large amount of technology transfer from the military engineering to mining and auto.

Granted, the USA does spend a heck of a lot of dough on military engagements though...

[Sissy Maid Lucy]

Originally Posted by smc

Thanks for reminding me that I left off my list the ridiculous subsidies given to agri-business (not small family farmers so much as mega-corporations in the agricultural sector) either to grow things we don't really use or NOT to grow things we could use.

Oh, and why should small family farmers in the USA (or Europe) get subsidies? Australian and New Zealand farmers get no subsidies so we live by the manta "get bigger and cleverer or get out". That's why we run quad-roadtrains, 80ft wide airseeders and 150ft wide spray rigs so we can have big farms without employing labor. That's the joy of capitalism, minimal government help means minimal government interference and therefore maximum productivity.

[smc]

Originally Posted by Sissy Maid Lucy

The problem with that argument is that military industry jobs are 'clever' jobs - minimum of a bachelor-degree. And it is about new science and technology advancement. Public works and human services are generally not going to employ the intellectuals - there are only so many bridges that can be built! A school friend of mine here in Australia did a degree in electronic and mechanical engineering... 80% of his classmates work in military-related jobs, 15% in mining, 5% automotive. And there is a surprisingly large amount of technology transfer from the military engineering to mining and auto.

Granted, the USA does spend a heck of a lot of dough on military engagements though...

By public works, I don't necessarily mean building bridges. There is no reason why public employment can't be "high-tech."

Originally Posted by Sissy Maid Lucy

Oh, and why should small family farmers in the USA (or Europe) get subsidies? Australian and New Zealand farmers get no subsidies so we live by the manta "get bigger and cleverer or get out". That's why we run quad-roadtrains, 80ft wide airseeders and 150ft wide spray rigs so we can have big farms without employing labor. That's the joy of capitalism, minimal government help means minimal government interference and therefore maximum productivity.

I wrote that I am against subsidies for farmers. Of course, if public funds were used to purchase foodstuffs from farmers to help feed the world, rather than public subsidies to prop up "markets," that would be a different thing altogether.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I'm glad someone wrote something like this, finally. Where Tracy and her ilk chip away at my faith in humanity as they go about destroying lives, this post from you smc accomplishes the reverse. Yet the question remains: how many others in the US believe as you do? How many are not selfish monsters who begrudge a good life and real freedom to their brothers?

I'm not sure how much of the $691 Billion in defense a 'majority' means, but let's say you guys want to cut all of it. All the cuts listed above total up to $797 billion. Guess what folks, the 2010 budget has a $1.342 trillion deficit. You've eliminated the entire frickin DoD, military operations/wars, and %80 of Homeland security. You still have over $545 billion left to go, just to balance the budget.

For the past week, despite attempts to sidetrack the discussion, I've been trying to see if we can at least arrive at one thing we can agree on: It's never good practice to routinely run a deficit unless it's a national emergency.

There has been no objection to this from any side of the debate. Yet you guys have declared a budget cut victory when there's still a deficit. There's obviously no military threat to the country or you wouldn't have tossed out the DoD (certainly no lives destroyed in that move are there Enoch Root. Those 4 million highly trained people and their families will be just fine in a job market where 15 million are already looking for work). So why do you guys think there should still be a deficit? What's the emergency?

[smc]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

I'm not sure how much of the $691 Billion in defense a 'majority' means, but let's say you guys want to cut all of it. All the cuts listed above total up to $797 billion. Guess what folks, the 2010 budget has a $1.342 trillion deficit. You've eliminated the entire frickin DoD, military operations/wars, and %80 of Homeland security. You still have over $545 billion left to go, just to balance the budget.

For the past week, despite attempts to sidetrack the discussion, I've been trying to see if we can at least arrive at one thing we can agree on: It's never good practice to routinely run a deficit unless it's a national emergency.

There has been no objection to this from any side of the debate. Yet you guys have declared a budget cut victory when there's still a deficit. There's obviously no military threat to the country or you wouldn't have tossed out the DoD (certainly no lives destroyed in that move are there Enoch Root. Those 4 million people and their families will be just fine). So why do you guys think there should still be a deficit? What's the emergency?

I am in favor of a federal government running deficits, just as the founder intended, because revenues at a given time may not meet necessary social outlays. But Tracy Coxx dissembles, as usual, what I wrote. I included raising taxes on the corporations and the wealthy. Every economist acknowledges that simply restoring the tax rate on the wealthiest Americans to what it was before the so-called "Bush tax cuts" would eliminate the current problem. I would go much, much further, to eliminate every loophole that allows corporations such as GE to pay no taxes. And eliminate the oil subsidies.

You can try to be clever with your writing, Tracy Coxx, but cleverness works best when you use what people actually say, not what you wish they had because it works to your advantage.

[smc]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

... For the past week, despite attempts to sidetrack the discussion, I've been trying to see if we can at least arrive at one thing we can agree on: It's never good practice to routinely run a deficit unless it's a national emergency.

There has been no objection to this from any side of the debate. ...

By the way, I suggest you look up "sidetrack" in a dictionary. This accusation is being hurled against me (the "TLB staff" you previously referred to, but were finally told to use a name -- which you can't bring yourself to do for some reason). I have asked you to take this abstract discussion and make it concrete by defining what constitutes an "emergency" and what YOU would cut. If that is sidetracking, I'd like to know what it is you think that word means.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

There has been no objection to this from any side of the debate. Yet you guys have declared a budget cut victory when there's still a deficit. There's obviously no military threat to the country or you wouldn't have tossed out the DoD (certainly no lives destroyed in that move are there Enoch Root. Those 4 million highly trained people and their families will be just fine in a job market where 15 million are already looking for work). So why do you guys think there should still be a deficit? What's the emergency?

The only reason those people have those jobs is because of a perpetual war economy and as smc already said: "The solution is simple: reemploy people in public works and human services, and watch the economy soar as the social benefits accrue to everyone, not just some rich military-industrial-complex fat cats and the politicians in their pockets."

[Enoch Root]

Sidetrack the discussion Tracy? That requires a discussion to begin with and it is clear that this thread was not started with the purpose of discussion.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

"The solution is simple: reemploy people in public works and human services, and watch the economy soar as the social benefits accrue to everyone, not just some rich military-industrial-complex fat cats and the politicians in their pockets."

How much do you think it would cost the government & tax payers to employ nearly 4 million people in public works and human services? How would the economy soar? Would America be producing more? No.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

How much do you think it would cost the government & tax payers to employ nearly 4 million people in public works and human services? How would the economy soar? Would America be producing more? No.

For god's sake Tracy those are SMC's words! Stop going after me because you can't address smc like an adult.

[smc]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

How much do you think it would cost the government & tax payers to employ nearly 4 million people in public works and human services? How would the economy soar? Would America be producing more? No.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

For god's sake Tracy those are SMC's words! Stop going after me because you can't address smc like an adult.

Yes, Enoch Root, those were my words.

And Tracy Coxx, since you asked: I will bet my right arm, which you, Tracy Coxx, may personally come and cut off with a dull blade if I'm wrong, that the overwhelming majority of the 15 million people who have been out of work would gladly take a good-paying, socially useful job and pay taxes as employed workers, and support the elimination of the giveaways to the rich and the corporations so that employing them will not do as you say.

The way out of the economic problems of this country is not to combine business as usual -- i.e., tax breaks for the wealthy, no taxes on corporations, and corporate welfare -- and busting the backs of working people, but to stimulate the economy with spending that is socially useful. Nearly every economist recognizes this, except for the pseudo-economists in the employ of the corporations and their legislative minions. And even they have a hard time when they put out their lies.

[franalexes]

smc got his own words used against him!

Hot Damn Tracy, you're good.

If stimulus is good, why didn't it work the first time?

I paid 25 cents in taxes and got 20 cents back in stimulus and I'm supposed to feel richer. I think that's the theory.