Self Defense

[Tread]

Originally Posted by Rachel

In this country Mr. Tread someone somewhere used their piece to PREVENT a crime today. And yesterday it happened and will tommorow. These occurances are not reported.

And even more to do a crime.

Originally Posted by Rachel

Happened to me twice a few years ago.
...
Now had I not been armed that day Mr. Tread what do you suppose might have happened to my family?

Originally Posted by Rachel

The second time ...
In both these instances my pistols prevented crimes without firing a shot.

I didn't want to discuss weapons for self defence or in general, but you ask me directly to it.

I can't say what would have happened. There are not many facts to build a clear picture about the situations. Not one of the three persons that walked in your direction has threatened you or your family. A violent potential or weapons wasn't visible either, expect by you.
You judge them to be criminal by their looks, age and walking in your direction. You should always be aware in suspicious settings, but it's not sure they were criminals. In the second case, if he watched you the whole time, and waited for you, he is supposable after your money.

If you want to say swinging around a gun on street keeps people away, if criminal or not, you are right.

[Tread]

Originally Posted by jimnaseum

Unlike most people here, I actually used to get robbed quite often when I was whoring in the big city.
...
I'd like to get a shotgun to complete my home protection package.

You don't have to answer, but I like to know:
Are you ever violent or by threatening robed while being at home?
Why do you want an additional shotgun to complete home protection?

[jimnaseum]

Originally Posted by Tread

You don't have to answer, but I like to know:
Are you ever violent or by threatening robed while being at home?
Why do you want an additional shotgun to complete home protection?

Hey Tread,
The first place I bought was a townhouse in a bad neighborhood, I got robbed twice, the second time the thief actally got my revolver.
I'm real non-violent, I've been in jail a couple week-ends for petty offenses, I didn't like it.
G Gordon Liddy had a radio show, he said when he was an F B I agent and his team had to go out on an assignment that was most likely going to be "up close and personal" that the agents wisked right by the machine guns for the Shotgun rack. That made sense to me.

[The Conquistador]

Granny stops robber with a gun.

http://www2.nbc4i.com/cmh/news/crime...Robber/25296/#

[randolph]

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies --in the final sense --a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. . . . It is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1954

What would he think of us today?

[Tread]

Thanks to all who answered me to get a better understanding. I hope I'm not too annoying.

Originally Posted by aw9725

... I think a shotgun is a very effective weapon under home defense conditions--especially at close range. ...

That's a detailed answer.
I informed myself more about the crime in the different states compared to other countries. I was a bit surprised that I live in a county with so low homicides. And murders are done on the street, bars, or money transports. In other cases the murderer was a trusted person to the victims, friend, family, benefactor (tramping, meal, lodging), a client (prostitution), or something like this.
Maybe I don't know enough about the violent home attackers in the US, serial killers or about the addicts with money problems to see the home defence need.

I also looked up the advantages and disadvantages of shotguns, and still don't see why to buy an extra one.
A shotgun (pump-action) and the shells are usually cheaper than handguns but it's heavier and not so handy in buildings. They usually have less shells/bullets and a lower rate of fire (pump-action) than semi-automatic handguns. They are easier to use and have a better stopping power with one hit. If you have to shoot more than once the handgun is better. The spread of shot against the accurately of the handgun is not a big advantage at a room close rage. The penetration is lesser (limbs, walls).
So what is the reason not to use the gun you already have and use for self defence? If you let a shotgun out of the safe, you could also let your handgun at that place.

Originally Posted by jimnaseum

Hey Tread,
The first place I bought was a townhouse in a bad neighborhood, I got robbed twice, the second time the thief actally got my revolver.
I'm real non-violent, I've been in jail a couple week-ends for petty offenses, I didn't like it.
G Gordon Liddy had a radio show, he said when he was an F B I agent and his team had to go out on an assignment that was most likely going to be "up close and personal" that the agents wisked right by the machine guns for the Shotgun rack. That made sense to me.

I meant, was there one who robbed you violent or threatening at/in your home, while you were home.

Why it makes sense to you or/and the agents?

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by Tread

Thanks to all who answered me to get a better understanding. I hope I’m not too annoying.

Nope. You're not being annoying

Originally Posted by Tread

A shotgun (pump-action) and the shells are usually cheaper than handguns but it’s heavier and not so handy in buildings.

Compared to a pistol, yes. But a pistol still takes considerable training to hit a target accurately even at close range.

Originally Posted by Tread

They usually have less shells/bullets and a lower rate of fire (pump-action) than semi-automatic handguns.

True, but you forget that 1 shell of 000 buckshot contains 10 pellets roughly 9mm in diameter. That means 1 shell of 12 gauge 000 buck has the same capacity as 1 magazine of 9mm Parabellum. You will have more hits on target vs. rounds fired with a shotgun than a pistol.

Originally Posted by Tread

They are easier to use and have a better stopping power with one hit. If you have to shoot more than once the handgun is better. The spread of shot against the accurately of the handgun is not a big advantage at a room close rage. The penetration is lesser (limbs, walls).

If that were true, more troops would use a pistol for clearing rooms instead of a shotgun. In CQB, the shotgun is king. Pistols are generally used in areas where it is not practical to to have a larger weapon (i.e. concealed carry purposes, inside a vehicle etc) or is used as a way to fight your way to a more powerful weapon.

Handguns take considerable amount training to hit something accurately compared to a shotgun or rifle. Pistols have less stopping power unless you are comparing the ammo to birdshot which does not penetrate deep and has a large spread. The spread of the shot can be changed by the amount of choke the shotgun has; the tighter the choke, the tighter your spread will be. At longer distances even with the spread, more pellets of buck will hit a target vs. pistol rounds. If I remember correctly (which I don't) the spread after 20 ft. begins to open up 1 inch every 6ft-10ft depending on the load and choke.

If you are firing slugs from a shotgun, they will reach out and touch someone accurately at 100+ meters(Accuracy tapers off at around 125-150 meters.) which is alot greater than the pistols 25-50 meter range.

The penetration of the ammo depends on the loading. #4, #1, 0, 00, and 000 buckshot penetrates deeper than birdshot (hence why birdshot is used for hunting birds and buckshot is used for hunting deer.)

Originally Posted by Tread

So what is the reason not to use the gun you already have and use for self defence? If you let a shotgun out of the safe, you could also let your handgun at that place.

Again, it all depends on operator preference. Someone may not like the size of a shotgun and choose a pistol, another person may not hit accurately with a pistol but can hit better with a shotgun or a carbine. It all depends on what you are comfortable with. If you are comfortable with a pistol, get a pistol. If you are comfortable with a shotgun, get a shotgun and so on and so forth.

[jimnaseum]

[QUOTE=Tread;113642]
I meant, was there one who robbed you violent or threatening at/in your home, while you were home.
QUOTE]

When I lived in a bad neighborhood, I was jogging around the hood and some crack dealers threw a rock at me, so I scooped up a small rock and returned fire. The next thing I know, some hopped up jig is attacking me with a "for sale" sign from my next door neighbor's townhouse. While I was considering my options, two more Brothers were running toward us, I thought "Well, now I'm either dead or saved" Luckily, they grabbed their homeboy and pulled him back to their corner. I had a couple other showdowns with young black males, in every case, they knew where I lived.It cost me $100,000. to get out of that place.

When I used to go shooting I used a .22 because the ammo was so cheap. My buddy's sexy 9MM was so expensive to shoot, an afternoon of snorting coke would have been cheaper! I actually bought an pellet airgun from Walmart w/ scope for under $25, but it was pretty accurate for a toy.

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by Tread

And even more to do a crime.

A common fallacy that people have regarding firearms.

[Rachel]

[QUOTE=Tread;11172 Not one of the three persons that walked in your direction has threatened you or your family. A violent potential or weapons wasn’t visible either, expect by you.
You judge them to be criminal by their looks, age and walking in your direction. You should always be aware in suspicious settings, but it’s not sure they were criminals. In the second case, if he watched you the whole time, and waited for you, he is supposable after your money.



Hmm I thought I described the situation quite well enough for a rational person to put themselves in my shoes at that time and place. And I suppose all 3 gentlemen were just approaching me for friendship and good conversation? You are very naive Tread.

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by Rachel

Hmm I thought I described the situation quite well enough for a rational person to put themselves in my shoes at that time and place. And I suppose all 3 gentlemen were just approaching me for friendship and good conversation? You are very naive Tread.

It's not his faul Rachel. Maybe this pic will help you understand.

[SweetCharmer]

ok now this is just my observation but i think this Thread has slightly lost the plot.

this thread obviously started out in helping people get information on getting DIFFERENT ways on self defense but all i can is that its boiled down into an argument between those inside and outside of America. look Tread. Stop trying to push your views onto people when guns have obviously worked in america for the last 200 years or so. different cultures have different rules, thats the beauty of this world. in the end you're gonna get crime anywhere. plus i don't hear you going on about other places with gun crime like thailand, etc.

At the same time Rachel and AngryPost, i know from reading the posts that guns have saved you or your loved ones time and time again yet it wouldn't hurt to acknowledge the usefulness of hand to hand. there was a story here in the UK of a cop that was almost stabbed in the neck if it weren't for his training and fast reflexes yet at the same time here people are so eager to have a gun that they've taken to modifying BB guns to fire live ammo. gun crime is everywhere. different countries deal with it in different ways and for each country it seems to be working for a while.

Bottom line. if someone asks for advice on this thread instead for stating the importance of a gun alone. put down some ideas for hand to hand as a added help. it never pays to be well prepared.

Love & Peace

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by SweetCharmer

At the same time Rachel and AngryPost, i know from reading the posts that guns have saved you or your loved ones time and time again yet it wouldn't hurt to acknowledge the usefulness of hand to hand. there was a story here in the UK of a cop that was almost stabbed in the neck if it weren't for his training and fast reflexes yet at the same time here people are so eager to have a gun that they've taken to modifying BB guns to fire live ammo. gun crime is everywhere. different countries deal with it in different ways and for each country it seems to be working for a while.

Mr. Tread was asking why some use rifles and shotguns as opposed to a pistol; I was merely explaining why, albeit we did get a wee sidetracked. The importance of unarmed combat(UAC) is definetly not overlooked. When in public, I carry a blade on me but sometimes it is not practical or lawful to do so and I know various holds and strikes for when I am unarmed. There is a wooden riot baton that I keep close to my bed that I also train with. Knowing other ways of injuring or killing people is definetly a useful skill.

Ms. Rachel also stated in another thread that she is trained in Muay Thai.

[Rachel]

I told Pixie to carry brass knuckles like I do.

[Tread]

Originally Posted by SweetCharmer

ok now this is just my observation but i think this Thread has slightly lost the plot.

this thread obviously started out in helping people get information on getting DIFFERENT ways on self defense but all i can is that its boiled down into an argument between those inside and outside of America. look Tread. Stop trying to push your views onto people when guns have obviously worked in america for the last 200 years or so.

Indeed it lost slightly the plot. I've problems to not voice my opinion, if getting asked. But I'm not trying to push my views on other. I want to understand, why so many get a big weapon extra for home defence. I grasped KittyKaiti's and AngryPostman's personal opinion, but in general I don't get it and would like to hear more.
Even it was enjoyable, for the threads sake I'll stop asking why they expect some kind of Jason Voorhees in their home. (Damn, did it again)


Martial Arts:
In my opinion American Kenpō Karate, German Ju-Jutsu and a bit easier (Civilian) Krav Maga are the best choices for self defence. But the most martial arts have good working defence techniques.
If you don't want to learn the full program a usual self defence course teaches essential moves, behaviour, responsibility and confidence in a short time.

Personally I would prefer Spetsnaz Combat-Sambo or Jeet Kune Do, but it's nearly impossible to get a proper training in these.