Ask Jenae for real answers - no games.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by sesame

"If we cannot prove something's existence, it must be non-existent." OR, "If I cannot detect something, it must be a lie."

These statements are illogical and utterly Unscientific. There are scores of things that we know nothing about. But our ignorance cannot hinder their existence.

I'm not speaking for Jenae but as an atheist myself. Yes, it's unscientific to say conclusively that there's no god. But although I hold science in high regard, we still must make judgement calls, because the existence of god is not going to be scientifically resolved in our lifetime, if ever. But each of us must make up our minds. I can scientifically explain much of what many religious people would attribute to god, except for the big bang. I can't explain how the universe came from nothing. But saying god did it doesn't explain the even more bizarre concept of a god coming from nothing. For me, there is absolutely no reason to think there is a god, except for ancient myths. But scientifically, I cannot rule it out. But then, scientifically, there's no reason to think there is a god. So for myself, I decide based on the preponderance of evidence that the universe behaves according to physical laws, and that there is no good scientific evidence of the supernatural, that I do not believe in a god. So color me atheist.

[sesame]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

I'm not speaking for Jenae but as an atheist myself. Yes, it's unscientific to say conclusively that there's no god. But although I hold science in high regard, we still must make judgement calls, because the existence of god is not going to be scientifically resolved in our lifetime, if ever. But each of us must make up our minds.

Our decisions only affect ourselves, as I said before, the Truth remains the same no matter what we believe in.

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

I can scientifically explain much of what many religious people would attribute to god, except for the big bang. I can't explain how the universe came from nothing.

You could attribute to God, apart from the first bang, called as Nada or primal sound in Yoga, the creation of life! Science with all it's paraphernalia cannot create it yet! Not even a single cell!
Or could you explain by science how the oxygen cycle, water cycle, all the inter-dependence of living beings become so well planned? I guess the atheists would rather give the credit to a Lucky Accident! (Like the way they try to mumbo-jumbo the origin of life . Science believing in Luck!) Imagine, every reaction, every fusion, all the cycles of the Universe taking place due to a series of Lucky Accidents! This must be the idea of a mad Pocker Player!


I find every aspect of Nature to be a miracle. Men are so proud that they have created energy! Look at the ocean, look at all the sunlight in a single day, billions of Kilo Joules of power! We create electricity, ...Look at a single thunderstorm; it unleashes more electricity a whole Nation can produce in a Year! We created nuclear power... the sun runs with Nuclear fission. We can invent things, because it is already there in Nature! Michael Faraday created the first ever electric motor... he discovered electromagnetic induction. Did you know that he worshipped Nature as God?

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

But saying god did it doesn't explain the even more bizarre concept of a god coming from nothing.

Why is this NOTHING so favourite to you?
Why does it have to be the beginning of everything? To the Theists, God is the origin and end of everything. Whatever you call It, God, consciousness, soul... or some even paint a name and personality on It... like Elahi, God, Krishna, Jesus, because people cannot relate to It otherwise. The real thing is that Ultimate Truth or Consciousness! It is. It has always been there. The universes bloom and collapse upon the substratum of Truth.

For me, there is absolutely no reason to think there is a god, except for ancient myths. But scientifically, I cannot rule it out. But then, scientifically, there's no reason to think there is a god.

You may dislike Religions. But they are just institutions either ushering people to that Truth or trying to take advantage of the believers. But God (I hope you are not allergic to that term; its more convenient than X, Y, or It) is beyond such group activities. "Believe in our dogma, or you will go to hell." If I can find this statement foolish, I'm sure God feels more so! Seriously I believe God as the Fountainhead of Consciousness, of existence. Nobody can deny his own Consciousness!

[Jenae LaTorque]

[quote=sesame;102666]Our decisions only affect ourselves, as I said before, the Truth remains the same no matter what we believe in.
************************************************** *******

The Truth! ????

Sesame, you are the one who is blinding himself to the truth.

I have to wonder if you really understand the basic concepts of evolution since you refer to evolutionary steps as "accidents". From the context of your statements, I think that you don't understand that the definition of accident as used by scientists means " by chance ". To illustrate this point:

1. If you drop a coin from a hand's breath above a flat level surface, most of the times it will end up resting flat on the table. Once in a while though - it will by chance end up standing on it's rim. I know this because I have seen it several times in my life. Improbable things do happen. If you don't believe so, then read any of Charles Fort's books or at least Google him on the internet and read up on the amazing things that happen by chance. LOL You referred to mad ( crazy or pissed off? ) Pocker ( Poker ?) players. I have played enough poker in my life to experiance losing a hand while holding 4 aces. And, No!, I wasn't mad....just amazed.

2. If you are with me so far, then I would like to expound on the "accident of life" in terms of chance. How many atoms in the sea? Gazillions right? How many seconds in the time span that scientists believe life formed in. Gazillions right? So we have gazillions of atoms and gazillions of seconds for one event to occur - the first step in evolution by chance. It is very probable that this first step happened many, many times. Some of those progressed no further, but some made a second step....and a third ....and a fourth....and a fifth and so on. All of the changes occur by chance. Those "accidents" that contribute to the survival of the species in some way are then sometimes passed on to offspring. All of the rest of evolutionary theory follows from this. Now it seems to me that you have only a very rudimentry and somewhat fragmented knowledge of science in this area. There has been a lot of effort by theists of one type or another to bring science down in this area. So far they have failed. The best any of them can do is point out that we don't know yet how some things work, which is a far cry from disproving the legitimate claims of science. To say that we are unable to produce a single living cell yet doesn't mean that there is a god somewhere that can. The only way they could prove such a thing to my satisfaction would be to produce through their prayers, meditation, sacrifices, or whatever mumbo jumbo, a living cell. Come on, it's time for a good old fashioned miracle here. LOL We seem to be in short supply of them lately.

3. "I find every aspect of Nature to be a miracle." - Sesame

I am sure that by miracle you mean the definition as "wondrous, amazing, or remarkable" and not as "something which apparently contradicts known scientific laws". If you mean wonderous, I agree, Nature is amazing! It is amazing what Nature does for us- it is amazing that a volcano can erupt and wipe out villiages below, it is amazing that the ocean can produce tsunami waves that can wipe out thousands of people and destroy what man has built along the shoreline, it is amazing that earthquakes can destroy and kill so much. Now these would not be referred to as miracles by most people in history; rather as "wrath of god" events. Not to be nitpicky, but the sun is an example of Nuclear fusion not fission.

4. "We can invent things, because it is is already there in Nature!" - Sesame
You had best explain this apparently silly statement. While you are at, it please find me an example of an electric motor in nature.

5. As to Michael Faraday believing in Nature as god. Are you saying that he believed in Nature as a supernatural being or entity who created the world and manages it? What do you mean by saying he worshipped it?

That is enough for now, I have things to do now.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by sesame

You could attribute to God, apart from the first bang, called as Nada or primal sound in Yoga, the creation of life! Science with all it's paraphernalia cannot create it yet! Not even a single cell!

There was something I read yesterday...

Originally Posted by sesame

"If we cannot prove something's existence, it must be non-existent." OR, "If I cannot detect something, it must be a lie."

These statements are illogical and utterly Unscientific. There are scores of things that we know nothing about. But our ignorance cannot hinder their existence.

I think it applies here. We may not have deduced the path from individual hydrogen, carbon, oxygen, etc... atoms to amino acids to RNA to cells, but that does not mean that isn't how it happened. We have data points in chemistry, astrobiology and biology that start to paint the picture on how life evolved from inanimate matter. Here's an article that shows one piece of the puzzle:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...n-the-lab.html

Originally Posted by sesame

Or could you explain by science how the oxygen cycle, water cycle, all the inter-dependence of living beings become so well planned?

The Earth's atmosphere wasn't always like this. It originally consisted of hydrogen & helium. These light gasses easily escaped the Earth when heated by the sun. Then the atmosphere was primarily water vapor, CO2, methane and ammonia. 3.8 billion years ago, life started, and began to alter the atmosphere. The CO2 and water vapor content decreased while nitrogen rose. Life forms breathed primarily CO2. If they could think they would thank the gods for creating such a perfect CO2 atmosphere for them.

Beginning at 2.5 billion years ago, the atmosphere began to change again as early life forms exhaled oxygen into the atmosphere. As more and more oxygen entered the atmosphere some species evolved to breath oxygen.

Of course, if conditions were not right for life here, there would be no life to marvel at how perfect conditions are for life. Isn't this obvious? Life would sprout elsewhere where conditions happen to be favorable.

Originally Posted by sesame

I guess the atheists would rather give the credit to a Lucky Accident! (Like the way they try to mumbo-jumbo the origin of life . Science believing in Luck!) Imagine, every reaction, every fusion, all the cycles of the Universe taking place due to a series of Lucky Accidents! This must be the idea of a mad Pocker Player!

Straw man argument. You mischaracterize atheists' views and then point out how silly they are. It's not just luck that conditions are right for life here on Earth. Is it just luck that we have a beautiful sunny day here? No, it happened because of a high pressure zone that moved over where I live. The high pressure zone is from the movement of temperature zones caused by solar heating and the Earth's rotation, etc. Actually, the mineral content of our earth and the solar system in general are due the prior contents of the gas & dust cloud that existed here before the formation of the solar system, and also to a local super nova that spread heavier elements, including radioactive aluminum, which decays into magnesium (a common element among the rocky planets). Other evidence of the super nova include diamond dust found in meteorites dating more than 5 billion years old.

Originally Posted by sesame

I find every aspect of Nature to be a miracle.

It is amazing, but it's all ultimately explainable.

Originally Posted by sesame

Michael Faraday created the first ever electric motor... he discovered electromagnetic induction. Did you know that he worshipped Nature as God?

If you want to worship nature, fine. But it doesn't make sense to worship something that is by definition natural as something supernatural.

Originally Posted by sesame

Why is this NOTHING so favourite to you? Why does it have to be the beginning of everything?

Good question. Nothing, as I see it, is the complete absence of matter and energy. Most of our physical laws are based on the geometry of space-time. Why does our spacetime have 3 spatial dimensions, and one dimension of time? It is very likely has more dimensions as string theories suggest. But whatever the configuration, why that configuration? So nothing would include the absence of spacetime and all other dimensions as well. In fact, any attribute you might use to describe 'nothing' would not be applicable because that would be something.

Why is this state a favorable beginning? Because anything other than nothing would beg the question: How did that come to be?

Originally Posted by sesame

I believe God as the Fountainhead of Consciousness, of existence. Nobody can deny his own Consciousness!

I can without effort.

[Jenae LaTorque]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

I'm not speaking for Jenae but as an atheist myself. ....../////////..... So color me atheist.

Tracy, As you may, or may not have noticed, I am reluctant to accept the label "atheist" as I indicated in post #165. I prefer to align myself with Sam Harris in that regard. If you are not familiar with Sam Harris; please take time to watch some of his talks on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=630y_aBIuc0 is a good one to start with.

He makes the point very well that since we do not have a label for those that don't believe in astrology, Elvis is still alive, or the Earth is flat; then why should we be labeled. We aren't the ones that are making claims on silly, unsubstantiated notions. It is the theists who should be the ones to bear a label, not us. We are the ones who are being rational.

Please watch Sam and join with the rest of us who don't believe we should be labeled so.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

He makes the point very well that since we do not have a label for those that don't believe in astrology, Elvis is still alive, or the Earth is flat; then why should we be labeled. We aren't the ones that are making claims on silly, unsubstantiated notions. It is the theists who should be the ones to bear a label, not us. We are the ones who are being rational.

Please watch Sam and join with the rest of us who don't believe we should be labeled so.

Makes sense to me...

[sesame]

Originally Posted by tracycoxx

life evolved from inanimate matter.

Prove it first by creating life. How about "Life came from Life force itself"?

early life forms exhaled oxygen into the atmosphere.

Exhale oxygen!!! Its like that "emails in this thread" thing all over again! Did you mean emit by photosynthesis?

Nothing, as I see it, is the complete absence of matter and energy

I didnt say the Ultimate Consciousness is devoid of energy! It is the source of all energy. With E=mc^2 and matter-antimatter collisions, you can see that there is a state when all matter fuses into Energy. But here you and I differ. You prefer stupid energy and I conscious energy.

You take nature for granted, as if you know it all! I think we know very little about nature. How old is our knowledge of science? 200 years maximum. Natural and Supernatural are different terms concocted by us! But Nature is one. We call Supernatural whatever we cannot explain with our limited knowledge. But it belongs to the same Nature.

You cant deny your own consciousness. Because if you do, you prove that you are conscious.

[ila]

With the current discussion going on about origins here is a question that is more philosophical than scientific (although there might be some science to it).

What was there before the big bang and how long was the period before the big bang?

[sesame]

How do you define time?
Where was time before the big bang?


Space is such an important factor in multi dimensions!
How much space did this universe occupy before the big bang?

How many times did this universe expand and collapse? Like Bang...Bang...Bang...

How long has it been doing it?

[Jenae LaTorque]

Originally Posted by sesame

How do you define time?
Where was time before the big bang?


Space is such an important factor in multi dimensions!
How much space did this universe occupy before the big bang? All of it

How many times did this universe expand and collapse? Like Bang...Bang...Bang... 319 times

How long has it been doing it?

Since year 0

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by sesame

Prove it first by creating life. How about "Life came from Life force itself"?

Exhale oxygen!!! Its like that "emails in this thread" thing all over again! Did you mean emit by photosynthesis?

I didnt say the Ultimate Consciousness is devoid of energy! It is the source of all energy. With E=mc^2 and matter-antimatter collisions, you can see that there is a state when all matter fuses into Energy. But here you and I differ. You prefer stupid energy and I conscious energy.

I had higher expectations for this conversation. You seemed like someone who could grasp the experiments in evolution I cited. You make a huge point out of a trivial use of words to draw attention away from the fact that I showed that your oxygen cycle, water cycle, and the inter-dependence of living beings example doesn't necessarily have to be planned by a god. Yes I know plankton do not have lungs. Blood receives oxygen in the avioli in the lungs. That's how animals exhale CO2. Photosynthesis is the mechanism plants and microorganisms use which uses CO2 and oxygen is the byproduct - i.e. exhales oxygen "i.e. give forth gaseous matter". Look it up, but try and keep up with the actual content of the conversation.

Same with the nothingness I described. Try and focus here: Why is this NOTHING so favourite to me. (and no I won't ridicule your grammer there): Because anything other than nothing (and yes, that would include conscious energy) would beg the question: How did that come to be?

Stop deflecting and continue the conversation.

[sesame]

Just because scientists have observed a few Laws, dont take nature for granted! "Oh, its that simple nature we've always known!"
NO! Its that Ancient, mostly Unknown Nature, that has controlled everything since the beginning of time. All the mysteries are inside her belly!

Natural and Supernatural are different terms concocted by us! We call Supernatural whatever we cannot explain with our limited knowledge. But it belongs to the same Nature.

Who conveniently created life from non-living matter? Who sustained it in this hostile environment? What caused so much water in liquid form on earth? Who taught the first phototrophic bacteria or algae to photosynthesize? What plan caused the emitted oxygen to support all other lifeforms? All other cycles... Nitrogen, CO2, H2O, Aminoacids, RNA, DNA... ... I mean not only things concerned with life, but also atoms, their structure, their properties, sub-atomic particles, electrons, their orbits, their hungry and satisfied states... its amazingly well planned! You think all these connections happened by chance? This unscientific fascination of prejudiced scientists with Chance or, Accident or, Luck is so illogical!

Just think of it, the states of matter, solid, liquid, gas, ionic vapour, plasma, fusion, energy... its arranged in a perfect order! Come on, Tracy, this cannot be random!

I am not talking about the insane worship ritual of some deity here. I am talking about Nature in the most Logical manner.

[sesame]

There was no theory of relativity or Quantum mechanics then. I know Gallileo died in 1642. Kepler lived before 1630 and Copernicus before 1543.

If you really want to go back, Euclid lived in the 3rd century BC and there was Vedic Mathematics 1000s of years ago.

Great sage Kapil, the author of Samkhya Philosophy admitted the existence of soul, but denied God, in absence of proof! (Samkhya gave rise to Vedanta and Tantra )
In the Later Vedic age, Philosopher Charvak said, there is no afterlife, so take huge loans, eat butter, enjoy life. There is no God to punish you!

So what? In every age, some people believed in God, some remained sceptics. What I am trying to say is, that Nature's perfect engineering is proof enough of a Higher consciousness. Nature herself is God!

I am not looking for some bearded man on a throne, set upon some clouds, who either sends you to heaven, or, to eternal hellfire, for the work of one tiny lifetime! This idea is indeed preposterous.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by sesame

Who conveniently created life from non-living matter? Who sustained it in this hostile environment? What caused so much water in liquid form on earth? Who taught the first phototrophic bacteria or algae to photosynthesize? What plan caused the emitted oxygen to support all other lifeforms?

Who created the entity who caused all these things? Who created the entity that created the entity who caused all these things? Who created...

Originally Posted by sesame

Just think of it, the states of matter, solid, liquid, gas, ionic vapour, plasma, fusion, energy... its arranged in a perfect order! Come on, Tracy, this cannot be random!

When did I say it was random? Actually you claimed that was my position before and I called you out on your strawman argument. I went through lengthy explanations of cause and effect examples showing that it wasn't just random. Apparently that went in one eyeball and out the other. If you want to have meaningful discussions you will have to stop mischaracterizing my position.

[Jenae LaTorque]

Originally Posted by sesame

Prove it first by creating life. How about "Life came from Life force itself"?

.

You take nature for granted, as if you know it all! I think we know very little about nature. How old is our knowledge of science? 200 years maximum. Natural and Supernatural are different terms concocted by us! But Nature is one. We call Supernatural whatever we cannot explain with our limited knowledge. But it belongs to the same Nature.

You cant deny your own consciousness. Because if you do, you prove that you are conscious.

__________________________________________________ __________

So.... our knowledge of science only goes back 200 years? maximum? Ok, let's seen now 2009 ...minus.... 200 .... equals....... 1809. No science before the year 1809. Oh, you are absolutely right ...... there were no scientists before then........ they were heretics and unbelievers Best to burn em, hang em. whatever, ...just shut them up before they erode the faith of the faithful. Fie on Newton! To hell with Benjamin Franklin! Keep Galileo in jail until he dies!