Feared or Respected?

[johndowe]

Hi there.

Is it better to be feared or respected?

I was feared, and i am respected, and i prefer to be respected a whole lot better.

Because when you are feared you are also hated, when you are respected you usually are liked.


But many people do not understand what respect is, and how it works.

First: Respect is NOT a one way thing, to get respect you HAVE TO give it, but both parties still have to work to keep it or as they say EARN it.

Second: treating someone in a polite and/or curtious way is a sign or respect, accepting people for who and what they are even if they are differnt than you is a sign of respect, trying to understand them is a sign of respect, making fun of them or putting them down ISN'T.


IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT OTHERS HAVE TO BOW DOWN TO YOU, OR YOU TO THEM, THAT IS NOT RESPECT, THAT IS DOMINANCE, BIG DIFFERENCE.

JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

It is good to see that in this forum, almost all the participants respect eachother even if their opinions are diametrally opposed.

Congratulation to everybody.

JohnDowe.

[Creedence]

I guess I might be considered a bit odd because I'm going to choose Fear for this question.

Respect and being admired is a great thing and it's noble to live well and try to earn it from others by being kind and virtuous.

Fear is stronger then respect. I choose Fear. I wouldn't be betrayed if I was feared and I wouldn't be questioned.

It's simpler.

But would I choose another emotion over Fear? Of course.

Which leads me to ask a question to add-on.

Is being loved stronger then being feared or respected?

[johndowe]

Hi there.

You would be betrayed in a minute if they were confronted by something they feared more.

Loved over feared, sure, loved over respected, couldn't realy choose, loved but not respected? I don't think so, you need both.

Another example:

You get hit by a car, hit and run, you are close to dying, people in nearby houses see you, but you can't see them.

Feared: reaction: let him die he won't terrorize us anymore.

Respected: reaction: Oh, no, call 911, they come to you, the ambulance is on the way, anything we can do to help you?

Still prefer feared?

JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

I can't believe that nobody exept Creesence had anything to say about this, which is one of the leading cause of all inter-racial problems today, and most other intra-racial problems, where everybody wants to be respected but they don't understand what respect is, and all too often ends in bloodshed.

I do not request you to ansewer, I DEMAND IT.

JohnDowe.

[The Conquistador]

Fear and respect can go hand in hand. If you respect someone, you would be afraid to wrong them or dissappoint them in any way. So while you do fear them, it is a fear that can be healthy and beneficial to both. However, if you are talking about irrational fear, like someone threatening you with the prospect of death, I will have to go with respect instead.

[Creedence]

Originally Posted by johndowe

Hi there.

You would be betrayed in a minute if they were confronted by something they feared more.

Loved over feared, sure, loved over respected, couldn't realy choose, loved but not respected? I don't think so, you need both.

Another example:

You get hit by a car, hit and run, you are close to dying, people in nearby houses see you, but you can't see them.

Feared: reaction: let him die he won't terrorize us anymore.

Respected: reaction: Oh, no, call 911, they come to you, the ambulance is on the way, anything we can do to help you?

Still prefer feared?

JohnDowe.

Yes actually I would still prefer feared because you're under the impression that everyone would hate me.

I wouldn't treat everyone I know like a tyrant I would have a group of people who I care about and they care about me.

You said I need both but originally you mentioned I had to choose one or the other.

If I'm loved I'm vulnerable to many things such as betrayal and people thinking that while I'm compassionate I am also weak for it.

I would choose Love if I could but you asked to be feared or respected and you don't need to be loved to respected.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

It isn't the 22nd yet, keep posting.

JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

Originally Posted by Creedence

Yes actually I would still prefer feared because you're under the impression that everyone would hate me.

I wouldn't treat everyone I know like a tyrant I would have a group of people who I care about and they care about me.

You said I need both but originally you mentioned I had to choose one or the other.

If I'm loved I'm vulnerable to many things such as betrayal and people thinking that while I'm compassionate I am also weak for it.

I would choose Love if I could but you asked to be feared or respected and you don't need to be loved to respected.

Hi there.

Re-read my post, you will see that i didn't say both respect and fear, i did say love and respect, not the same thing.

If you are loved, and you are vulnerable, and compassionate, vulnerable in love is NOT a bad thing, it means you truely love, trust and respect your lover, it is very far from beeing a weakness, being compassionate, is a VIRTUE, a strength and not a weakness, those who think that it is a weakness are fools that do not understand life and respect.

Love without respect canot flourish, it is choked out of existance by the lack of a good respectfull understanding of each of the parties.

You seem to see things from an adversarial point of view, not everybody is out to get you, most people are good and decent, lower your deflector shields once in a while and take the time to smell the roses, you may like what you see.

And if everybody in your viscinity is out to get you, and everybody else, get the heck out of there, that is NOT NORMAL, it is unhealthy for you and all that participate.

Also if you are feared outside of your home/entourage, it WILL come back to you and your entourage sooner or later, usually sooner, because of what you have to do to keep the fear fresh in those that fear you, and one day someone of your entourage will get you mad, and you will act the same way you have with the others that you want to frighten.


JohnDowe.

In graduate school, I attended a seminar on leadership taught by Lt. General Dave Palmer (one-time commandant of West Point). The issue of "Fear or Respect" came up and the consensus was that it depends on the situation. If one is commanding troops in battle, there is no room for an "intellectual discussion"--orders must be obeyed. If one is an "ER" or "OR" doctor, immediate "life and death" decisions must be made--no time for discussion. If one is a CEO of a company in trouble--hard decisions must be made--for better or for worse. If one is the President of the US and the "3 AM phone call" comes... same thing.

In all of the examples above, I'm sure the General, Doctor, CEO, and President would prefer to be "respected." Given the immediacy and gravity of the situation however, there is not time to worry about it. If they must be "feared" to accomplish what must be done, then so be it.

Personally, in my own career I choose "respect." I can't imagine any case where I would want or need to have my colleagues or students "fear" me. In fact, "fear" would be counterproductive in that it would limit open discussion and inquiry.

Perhaps the best treatise on "fear and love (respect)" was written almost 500 years ago...

"Upon this a question arises: whether it be better to be loved than feared or feared than loved? It may be answered that one should wish to be both, but, because it is difficult to unite them in one person, is much safer to be feared than loved, when, of the two, either must be dispensed with. Because this is to be asserted in general of men, that they are ungrateful, fickle, false, cowardly, covetous, and as long as you succeed they are yours entirely; they will offer you their blood, property, life and children, as is said above, when the need is far distant; but when it approaches they turn against you. And that prince who, relying entirely on their promises, has neglected other precautions, is ruined; because friendships that are obtained by payments, and not by greatness or nobility of mind, may indeed be earned, but they are not secured, and in time of need cannot be relied upon; and men have less scruple in offending one who is beloved than one who is feared, for love is preserved by the link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at every opportunity for their advantage; but fear preserves you by a dread of punishment which never fails.

Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred; because he can endure very well being feared whilst he is not hated, which will always be as long as he abstains from the property of his citizens and subjects and from their women. But when it is necessary for him to proceed against the life of someone, he must do it on proper justification and for manifest cause, but above all things he must keep his hands off the property of others, because men more quickly forget the death of their father than the loss of their patrimony. Besides, pretexts for taking away the property are never wanting; for he who has once begun to live by robbery will always find pretexts for seizing what belongs to others; but reasons for taking life, on the contrary, are more difficult to find and sooner lapse. But when a prince is with his army, and has under control a multitude of soldiers, then it is quite necessary for him to disregard the reputation of cruelty, for without it he would never hold his army united or disposed to its duties."

Returning to the question of being feared or loved, I come to the conclusion that, men loving according to their own will and fearing according to that of the prince, a wise prince should establish himself on that which is in his own control and not in that of others; he must endeavour only to avoid hatred, as is noted."

Nicolo Machiavelli -- "The Prince"

[DSL]

I was wondering how can we have fear in a forum? i do have respect for
others in here no doubt about that but to have fear,
i have no fear... or any where outside either.

what i wanted to know is can we have fear in a forum?

[johndowe]

Originally Posted by DSL

I was wondering how can we have fear in a forum? i do have respect for
others in here no doubt about that but to have fear,
i have no fear... or any where outside either.

what i wanted to know is can we have fear in a forum?

Hi there.

Well, not to sound like a know it all, but it is possible but not really probable, the only fear i can see as possible is if someone disclosed a guarded secret and would be afraid of being discovered, that kind of thing, intimidations might be possible but, one can always close the window and never come back, which doesn't necesarily imply fear, but maby anoyance?

No fear outside the forum in the real world? I underatand that if you don't cross people they shouldn't cross you, and if you respect everybody they should respect you back, but there are assholes and gangs out there, and they usually "don't take prisonners", (the gangs) so i don't know how to put this any better than this; are you oblivious to what is happening around you?

Have you read my LOOONG post in this thread, when i said i was nervous when the 4 guys were around me it was fear that made me nervous and them too, so i am not without fear and never pretended to be, and when i am in a confrontation there is almost always at least a little bit of fear, the thing is to not show your fear and to control it so it doesn't debilitate you, but no fear at all ever? I am doubtfull, even if you do not get into confrontations, life can get scary at times.

JohnDowe.

To all my friends on this forum (this includes you too JohnDowe!):

I find these conversations quite interesting and enjoyable but it would be nice to know a little bit more about some of you. I really am the guy in the picture and yes, all of the stuff I've listed and talked about in my posts is true. If I were lying, I would've said I really am Hugh Jackman and married to Kelly Shore (in my dreams!), and in my spare time I am Director of NASA, and Obama's top security adviser! Oh, and I taught Tom Brady everything he knows about playing quaterback! LOL!

Seriously, I completely understand why anyone would be reluctant to share and I respect each and everyone's reasons. Just would be interested in knowing more about you. For what it's worth, this has been a great place to hang out and I look forward to coming here each day for whatever reasons.

Later...

I see that you are all seeking a more “personal” definition of “respect vs. fear.” I think it is a great question worthy of discussion. My only problem with it here is that I find it hard to discuss things like this online without actually knowing the participants. Also, it may be slightly “off topic” for this forum. I’d much rather talk about “Kelly Shore” or “Camila Saenz”…

Many years before I became a "respected" Associate Professor--back in high school and college I played football, rode a motorcycle, listened to Metallica, and was considered something of a “badass” or "hooligan." I was the guy who was “voted most likely to succeed or end up on the 10 most wanted list.” LOL The last time I got into a fight and “beat the shit” out of someone was my Freshman year of college and fortunately for me it was considered “self defense.”

Somewhere along the way I “grew up” and focused my energies on more “productive” endeavors like studying hard, thinking about a career other than in the NFL, being a good husband, etc. Our society typically doesn’t condone violence as a solution to personal disagreements and “kicking someone’s ass” can more often than not, land you in jail. Where you will get lots of “love and respect” from your fellow inmates! LOL

My reaction to someone’s “in your face” response now would be to laugh and walk away. Where it goes from there is up to the other person. I have never had anyone pursue it further. Kind of like “flipping the bird” to someone while driving. Do you really want to “kill” the other driver? There was a well publicized “road rage” incident here just a few weeks ago. The driver who felt “disrespected” is now facing his day in court. Again, years of “love and respect” from your new “cellmates.”

The clear exception would be if someone posed an immediate threat to myself or my family. That is another matter entirely and involves principles of “self defense.” If you want to read a great book on the issues involved in using deadly force, I suggest “In the Gravest Extreme” by Massad Ayoob.

Peace (and Respect)…

[johndowe]

Hi there.

In the example of the general, the ceo and the doc, if the respect is already established, the orders issued might be ill recieved by the subordinates, but will probably be forgiven considering the urgency of the situation, so the abruptness is understandable and almost expected, once they come face to face with the problem.

As for love and respect, i'm not sure i agree with all of it but there are points of merit, irregardless how great the man was, nobody is perfect, not even me, but, i will meditate on this.

JohnDowe.

[suebone]

Originally Posted by johndowe

Hi there.

Is it better to be feared or respected?

I was feared, and i am respected, and i prefer to be respected a whole lot better.

Because when you are feared you are also hated, when you are respected you usually are liked.


But many people do not understand what respect is, and how it works.

First: Respect is NOT a one way thing, to get respect you HAVE TO give it, but both parties still have to work to keep it or as they say EARN it.

Second: treating someone in a polite and/or curtious way is a sign or respect, accepting people for who and what they are even if they are differnt than you is a sign of respect, trying to understand them is a sign of respect, making fun of them or putting them down ISN'T.


IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT OTHERS HAVE TO BOW DOWN TO YOU, OR YOU TO THEM, THAT IS NOT RESPECT, THAT IS DOMINANCE, BIG DIFFERENCE.

JohnDowe.

John; I only get respect when I use my sister's ID.(we allways pass off as twins ,she is my best frend) The fear comes out when other's expect to much of me.;;;;;sue b

[johndowe]

Hi there.

SUE, could you elaborate, plz?

JohnDowe.

[suebone]

came out in 1999.a few years in a bad situation.my sister pulled me out of. this state takes for ever to change one's ID from M to F. the fear facter is how people treat me for who i am .

[johndowe]

Originally Posted by suebone

John; I only get respect when I use my sister's ID.(we allways pass off as twins ,she is my best frend) The fear comes out when other's expect to much of me.;;;;;sue b
came out in 1999.a few years in a bad situation.my sister pulled me out of. this state takes for ever to change one's ID from M to F. the fear facter is how people treat me for who i am .

Hi there.

Again Sue, more info, one line is not enough, elaborate, look at my posts, very LOOOOONNNNNG, explain the situation, your feelings, beeing a girl, it shouldn't hard (ha,ha,ha).

If you can pass as your twin sister, you must be quite cute and girly, good for you, and she's your best freind, i'm sure she helped you with make-up clothes etc, not every tgirl is so lucky, not to say your life is perfect, but it seems to have at least some good points.

JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

I tought about "The Prince" Machiavelli, and i agree with his assessment of the respect, fear, love, cruelty and hate, in relation to beeing a ruler, it was very astute of him.

JohnDowe.

[suebone]

Originally Posted by johndowe

Hi there.

Again Sue, more info, one line is not enough, elaborate, look at my posts, very LOOOOONNNNNG, explain the situation, your feelings, beeing a girl, it shouldn't hard (ha,ha,ha).

If you can pass as your twin sister, you must be quite cute and girly, good for you, and she's your best freind, i'm sure she helped you with make-up clothes etc, not every tgirl is so lucky, not to say your life is perfect, but it seems to have at least some good points.

JohnDowe.

A few years after I came out as a M2F I was attacked. Now it takes me along time to trust someone.
Like I was saying my sister is everything to me now.I owe my life to her. she is a year older than me.
I will be posting a picture of me sometime later. I want to be in stealth mode you now. Can't be to explicated about me.
Is this ok? Peter,

[Sigma]

It is better to be feared. Being rejected is embarrassing and some people will try to walk over you. Being feared can give you respect.

[johndowe]

Originally Posted by Sigma

It is better to be feared. Being rejected is embarrassing and some people will try to walk over you. Being feared can give you respect.

Hi there.

You are confusing fear and respect, I quote myself:


"If a guy gets picked on by others, and is beeing bullied, then he gets a gun.

Asked, he will say: I didn't get any respect before, now i do.

But is it respect?"



NO!

The guys that were on his case stopped picking on him because they fear getting shot, if he were to lose the gun and they knew it he would get beat up real bad as a retaliation to his getting the gun, so fear and respect are diametrally opposed, if you are feared you are not respected, if you are respected you are not feared, more prcicely, the more feared you are the less respected you are, the more respected you are the less you are feared.

Not being feared is in effect being liked, and when was that ever a bad thing?

I know when i started this thread that was the question but as i tought and researched it i realised i and most people didn't understand what respect was, and i changed my position and expectations about this thread.

Please read all the post in order and you will see what i mean, thank you.

As for rejections, all through your life you will sometimes be rejected, if others make fun of you, they are showing their pettyness and they are in effect did-respecting themselves, the importand thing in this situation is not what they do or say, but how you handle the rejection, if you handle it well, (respectfully) those same guys may very well be surprised at your reaction and end up respecting you for the mature way you handled yourself.

JohnDowe.

The term “alpha male” has typically been used in characterizing the behaviors of animals. As observed, in wild packs, there will develop a chain of dominance from the most powerful male to the “omega” or least powerful. Clearly the “alpha” gets preference in terms of mating and eating. So therefore survival and procreation are dependent on establishing “dominance.” The “alpha” must maintain his position and is constantly challenged by younger, even stronger, males. Eventually he is defeated and another “alpha” emerges. It is a “dog eat dog” world quite literally.

Humans however, at least I would like to think, are slightly more evolved than that. We have created social organizations, rules, laws, governments, and even religions to impart order on our society. One of the first uses of “alpha” to refer to human behavior was the term “alpha plusses” in Brave New World by Aldous Huxley. Since then, it has been common in popular culture to refer to someone in a position of leadership as an “alpha.”

It has been a very long time since I studied this stuff in grad school but I believe that leadership and power in modern society depend as much on “social” or “situational” factors as they do on personal characteristics. In my own field, higher education, respect is gained primarily through knowledge. In order to do what I do, one must first demonstrate that they “know something” (it’s a piece of paper called a “doctorate”--whether or not it really means anything--who knows--there are clearly people here who are as educated and probably smarter than I am). Once accepted, the individual must then be able to show that they can “contribute” to further acquisition of knowledge (it’s called “research and publication”) and also that they can impart that knowledge to others (it’s called “teaching”). One also must be seen as a “good colleague” and part of a “community of scholars.” If you pass the test you get tenure and promotion (only then can you become a complete asshole--sorry I couldn’t resist). I have read some of the other posts on “respect” and “alpha” behavior here and I will have to say I have never encountered anything quite like it in my own life or career. I am quite sure that some of the “dominance” and “territorial” behavior described goes on--I just have been fortunate enough to have not seen it. We DO have the occasional fight over content areas or budgets but we don’t go around “in each others face.” We are much more subtle…

For myself, I never have thought in terms of whether or not *I* am an “alpha” male. After reading this thread, I started thinking about it… certainly I have many of the “traits.” I am tall (6’4” - or very close, you know you can't trust men to measure anything themselves), a former college football player (middle linebacker), still pretty fit at 39, have a strong speaking voice, and have assumed many positions of leadership from way back in high-school where I was our team’s defensive captain to more recently where I chaired my university’s technology committee for two years. When I get dressed up in a suit and tie (rarely--thank God), I probably look pretty scary. LOL! As for “fear,” I would never want to have my students or colleagues or friends or my lover “fear” me. In academia it would be counterproductive--we want to encourage free and open discussion and inquiry. Besides, whoever went around acting like too much like a “bully” or played too many “intimidation games” with other faculty or students would (forgive my “unacademic” choice of words) have their ass thrown out on the street. Forget tenure. Very early in my career (when I was like 23 or 24 and working on my Master's), there was a guy like that who acted like a "hard ass" and tried to intimidate (I personally think he was "scared shitless" of speaking in front of such a large group and was worried that the students wouldn't "respect" him... they didn't.) who they had hired to teach a couple of classes--he didn’t make it through the semester and I took over for him.

Do I command “respect” in my own personal and professional life? Well, so far I’d have to say “Yes.” I was granted tenure and am on track to be promoted to Full Professor next year. I am published and have even written a couple of books (gathering dust somewhere no doubt). I keep a blog that has a pretty wide readership--last summer I wrote about how the traffic after Michael Jackson’s death affected the Internet. A local TV station picked it up and CNN mentioned it (but not me by name). This semester at least, every Monday and Wednesday I have to command the attention and respect of approximately 150 18-20 year olds in my 8:00 lecture. As far as “respect” on the street--well I was born and raised in Detroit south of 8 mile. I think I could handle myself…

I didn’t intend to get back into this discussion or talk about myself so much (I’d much rather talk about Kelly Shore or music or things that go fast) but this thread and discussion of “respect” has taken on a personal twist. There has also been mention of "female" alpha types. Very interesting. I wanted to add that during my career, I have had several female “superiors” and have no issues with women in positions of power. I think if you were to ask most of us (in academia) about what determines “power” and “respect,” I think you would find that “knowledge,” “integrity,” “character,” “friendship,” and similar traits would be at the top of the list.

Finally, I’d like to share a couple of theories on leadership with you that might put the concept of a human "alpha male" in context. Homework if you will... Vroom proposed a “situational leadership” model where the leader is constrained entirely by events. There was also a Fiedler "contingency” model that I remember reading about somewhere that was similar. For what it's worth, I myself, rely on more of a “consensus” model. Blake also proposed a “managerial grid.” My Dad was an executive at GM in the 1960’s through the 80’s and probably used something like that. I’m sure his experience in “management” and “leadership” would be far different from mine! Through him I did an internship at GM. Corporate world: not for me!

Some very intriguing and even controversial issues have been raised in this thread. I do want to keep this discussion and all others on a friendly level. I have truly enjoyed being part of this forum as I have learned a great deal more about my own sexuality--as well as other things--I consider all of you friends and teachers in that I feel I have much to learn. Some of you who have shared your own experiences and challenges--you cannot imagine how much respect I have for you--and what you’ve taught me. One day, I may reveal where I teach and who I am. We have a LGBT organization on campus and I have thought about going there to talk to a counselor as I continue my own personal growth.

Take care...

[rhythmic delivery]

in most cases its better to be respected. but in some walks of life fear is much more usefull.

[new believer]

Originally Posted by rhythmic delivery

in most cases its better to be respected. but in some walks of life fear is much more usefull.

Being better is a matter of perspective. I woud prefer fear. One has to EARN respect. And 'EARN' ='s work. I work enough already. With fear, no one(hardly) messes with you or simply leaves you alone. And sometimes one needs to be alone. Just ask Greta Garbo. NB

[d332_dot_com]

applying George Bernard Shaw's quote "Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated" I would pick fear. If fear leads to hatred and hatred - perhaps (and a big perhaps at that) may be a stone's throw away from love, then at least there's some emotion involved.

Respect is just respect. I guess it's like some college degree. The people who have it think nothing of it. The ones who don't consider, it the end all of intelligence. Whenever I have conversations with girls who harp on respect, I thin - rightfully or wrongfully - they must not get much of it.

Then when you see the people who are always trying to get ill-treated....it's always the ones who get respect and power throughout their typical day. Think subs in S/M.

Respect is just following a set of polite rules. But fear is a powerful force that drives you over the edge, and make you do things you otherwise won't do.

And I like that.

[johndowe]

Originally Posted by d332_dot_com

applying George Bernard Shaw's quote "Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated" I would pick fear. If fear leads to hatred and hatred - perhaps (and a big perhaps at that) may be a stone's throw away from love, then at least there's some emotion involved.

Respect is just respect. I guess it's like some college degree. The people who have it think nothing of it. The ones who don't consider, it the end all of intelligence. Whenever I have conversations with girls who harp on respect, I thin - rightfully or wrongfully - they must not get much of it.

Then when you see the people who are always trying to get ill-treated....it's always the ones who get respect and power throughout their typical day. Think subs in S/M.

Respect is just following a set of polite rules. But fear is a powerful force that drives you over the edge, and make you do things you otherwise won't do.

And I like that.

Hi there.

Most people misunderstand the consept of respect and fear, while you are right fear can make you do things you wouldn't, but usually all the wrong things for the wrong reasons, and in the end it causes more problems for everybody involved, violence never solves anything, it will close a discussion but the argument is stopped but none of the opinions have changed, other than the winner thinks he won the arguement and the loser thinks the winner is even more of an asshole, so nothing was accomplished and someone got beat, that's not very smart, is it?

And respect is how you treat yourself and deal with others in every part of your life.

Another thing, you (genericly speaking) owe more respect to others than they owe you, once you understand this equasion (as it were) you will understand respect and will be able to interact with others more effectively.

More forthcoming.

JohnDowe.

[tunlov]

Respected.

[johndowe]

Originally Posted by new believer

Being better is a matter of perspective. I woud prefer fear. One has to EARN respect. And 'EARN' ='s work. I work enough already. With fear, no one(hardly) messes with you or simply leaves you alone. And sometimes one needs to be alone. Just ask Greta Garbo. NB

Hi there.

As i said elsewhere, i'm back...

You say you have to work to earn respect?

Well, i suppose being cyvil to someone could possibly be considered work, or being polite and curtious too.

But having to intimidate someone or even beating them up to get the fear isn't work?

And then if the guy you beat up has freinds and they try to beat you up, if you run away, you lose the fear and by the way running is work in my book, and if you do fight them, well there will be a lot of people working to clean up that mess, irregardless of who won.

JohnDowe.