SRS - must you mutilate your self to become a "real" woman?

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by Bionca

I'll have to second Jen's comment above - "mutilated" is probably the worst word to use for SRS, and is quite often used by anti-trans folks to discount the lives of trans*women. "Altered is probably only marginally better, since some feminists have decided to call natal women "FAAB" (Female Assigned At Birth) and trans* women as "SCAMs" (Surgically and Chemically Altered Males).

Although I support your sentiments 100% as far as legal recognition goes. I was born in a place that won't change my birth certificate no matter what I do - this means that any time I get a job, travel out of the country, etc I get to tell random strangers I'm trans*.

Mizzy B

As you obviously know, I'll be the last to insult any trans*woman here. How ever, I do believe the term "mutilation" has merit when you consider, that some girls have said to me: "I'll do what ever my man wants me to do..."

Not only does that break my heart, but it also makes it a political thing for me. When ever a little tranny is more or less talked into doing such a serious thing, then it quickly becomes mutilation, if her own heart is not into it. I've met and befriended my share of trans*woman, most likely quite a few more than most of you. And I've NEVER truly met what I would consider a "true post-op wannabe".

Besides, I've had good and deep debates with Danish trans*women about this issue - and not least my old friend Solvejg is fighting a hairless thing against the danish law makers to make them recognize the fact that gender identity is not a matter of genitalia.

If a woman decides on her own that SRS is what it takes to make her feel more comfortable with her self and within her self, then I will support her 100%. The sad fact is, however, that girls feel the pressure and go ahead embarking on a terrible route that can only in the end be labelled "mutilation".

That's why in Denmark you cannot be granted SRS until many years of heavy psychological tests to determine your motivation. I agree to such a strenuous regiment. SRS is not to be taken lightly.

Disagree all you want, ladies...

H

[wenndwong]

I disagree with the term "mutilate." Mutilation is when someone does a DIY job on themselves, but when a surgeon does it, it's an "alteration."

I can see the rigid Dr. Benjamin Guildlines for minors, but why should I as someone in their late 40's, no wife, no kids, should go through hoops and bucks, which would be better spent on surgery and transitioning.

Too bad no one has replaced Dr. Kimmel as the only surgeon "willing" to removed a guy's balls, gonads, nuts et al, without all the BS. We all know that castration is permanent.

If a guy wants to become a girl, why not. If surgery makes them fell more like a "real" women, why not! It's nobody's business!-WDW

[Kimmy_t]

Constructive and well-written post by Hank with some valid points. Valid but I do not agree with all of them.

The thing that bothers me is that regular women can get vaginoplasties no questions asked, cash or creditcard? Coz they think their labia don't look like a pornstar's(photoshop anyone?). Castration for men is a tad harder but the hard part can be finding the doctor, but there's no big ruleset around it. Then consider stuff like facial plastic surgery or boobjobs.

I am pretty sure giving a t-girl the SRS she wants will produce 10 times the emotional happiness of someone getting her boobs filled a bit. But then why do they make it so bloody hard for us? I mean sure it is a hard decision, but it's our lives, we are mature well-thinking human beings, most of us tend to be reasonably intelligent too. Why all the hoops to jump through? I feel like a circus tiger with the way the Genderteam in my country treats me. They're very nice people though, they're just very strict.

I've heard of a transwoman who was 40 years old, had her own company, complete with employees, good reputation in the trade, successful person, profesionally. Imagine how humiliating it must've been to suddenly be treated like a child, having to prove that you want something, that you think clearly, explain yourself to some kind of jury. Suddenly you're not the adult anymore.

I think they should relax the rules a bit, period. If people make a wrong decision, then that's their own mistake. We can all make mistakes in our daily lives, and many of them are just as big as getting SRS.

A thing I do want to say, is that it's amazing how respectful some guys on this forum are. That's something that's completely new to me. I don't mean that offensively, on the contrary, it really gives me hope and faith in the future.

Kim

[Yuckees]

I agree with most of what you are saying...
But it is very disputable theme.

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by Kimmy_t

Constructive and well-written post by Hank with some valid points. Valid but I do not agree with all of them.

The thing that bothers me is that regular women can get vaginoplasties no questions asked, cash or creditcard? Coz they think their labia don't look like a pornstar's(photoshop anyone?). Castration for men is a tad harder but the hard part can be finding the doctor, but there's no big ruleset around it. Then consider stuff like facial plastic surgery or boobjobs.

I am pretty sure giving a t-girl the SRS she wants will produce 10 times the emotional happiness of someone getting her boobs filled a bit. But then why do they make it so bloody hard for us? I mean sure it is a hard decision, but it's our lives, we are mature well-thinking human beings, most of us tend to be reasonably intelligent too. Why all the hoops to jump through? I feel like a circus tiger with the way the Genderteam in my country treats me. They're very nice people though, they're just very strict.

I've heard of a transwoman who was 40 years old, had her own company, complete with employees, good reputation in the trade, successful person, profesionally. Imagine how humiliating it must've been to suddenly be treated like a child, having to prove that you want something, that you think clearly, explain yourself to some kind of jury. Suddenly you're not the adult anymore.

I think they should relax the rules a bit, period. If people make a wrong decision, then that's their own mistake. We can all make mistakes in our daily lives, and many of them are just as big as getting SRS.

A thing I do want to say, is that it's amazing how respectful some guys on this forum are. That's something that's completely new to me. I don't mean that offensively, on the contrary, it really gives me hope and faith in the future.

Kim

Of course there should be respectfulness regarding transsexuality - I hope that's what I have expressed throughout my many postings here.

However, I disagree with your notions to the degree that not all trans*women are as calm and under control of nobody like yourself. I believe that such an operation with such dramatic consequences must be done only after careful consideration, and I don't believe that every body is capable of making such a decision on their own with out guidance.

Besides, if it is such a strong desire, then you can go to Thailand and have it performed - these doctors are probably much more experienced than Western doctors anyway.

But my initial point was not really to challenge SRS - it was simply to state my belief that gaining legal female status should not be depending on a woman's genital habitus. It is absolutely ridiculous that the trans*ignorant hetero society (those who set the rules) should be allowed to make such rules unchallenged in a democracy.

If a transsexual woman decides that she wishes to obtain legal status as a woman, then that is HER choice. Not mine, not Barack Obama's, not any one else's than hers.

If it were up to me, she should be ale to make her decision and within a month have her new passport as a woman. With ALL the female rights including marrying. And nobody should ask her to strip or see doctor's papers.

What's the harm done? To what degree would this be misused?

I believe it is the right of a woman also to be a legal woman.

H

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by wenndwong

If a guy wants to become a girl, why not. If surgery makes them fell more like a "real" women, why not! It's nobody's business!-WDW

I respectfully and especially FULLY disagree... this is NOT about "a guy wants to become a girl"... it's much deeper than that. For the majority of trans*women that transition has already taken place mentally long before an urge for SRS appears.

And I do actually think, that it's anybody's business - not the hetero fascists' business but a concerned society of well educated therapists who actually KNOW the nuts and bolts of the consequences mentally for folks who go through with it.

I want every single trans'woman in this world to be happy and fulfilled - don't ever doubt that. But I do feel a bit worried about the basis on which some women make this final decision. That's why I believe it prudent to have a long process to go through before it's granted.

I actually care! A lot!

H

[smc]

Please excuse me in advance for my academic bent (being a trained classicist and professor) in this posting.

Transjen is on good ground, language-wise, to choose alteration -- as a comparison of two words shows.

Regarding the English word mutilation: it comes from the Latin infinitive verb mutilare, which means "to cut off" or "to lop off." Mutilare, turn, derives from the Latin word mutilus, which translates as "maimed." There is some consideration that the Latin word may be a cognate of a Greek word, transliterated as mytilos, with means "hornless" or "without horns." (I will forego commenting on the obvious joke that could be made.)

Of course, while mutilation generally refers to an act taken against something physical (a penis, for example), there is common usage referring to non-physical things. For example, this sentence: George W. Bush's way with the English language is nothing short of mutilation.

To alter something is quite a bit different. The word comes to us from Old French, altérer, meaning "to change something." Before that, it was alterare in Medieval Latin, derived from oder Latin alter, meaning "the other" (of two things). Notably, beginning way back in the late 16th century, there are references in English where alter was used to mean "to become otherwise" -- which is rather nice usage.

I like to think that someone who has willingly and with full understanding undergone SRS has "become otherwise" -- namely, to transcend the constriction of what transjen so aptly called a birth defect to reveal the true self, as self-defined (self-definition being the key). I look forward to the day when each of us, and our governments, consider this of no more consequence than dying one's hair -- and when all the pseudo-moral restrictions that exist today are eliminated.

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by smc

I like to think that someone who has willingly and with full understanding undergone SRS has "become otherwise" -- namely, to transcend the constriction of what transjen so aptly called a birth defect to reveal the true self, as self-defined (self-definition being the key). I look forward to the day when each of us, and our governments, consider this of no more consequence than dying one's hair -- and when all the pseudo-moral restrictions that exist today are eliminated.

In spite of my rather limited vernacular, I dare to answer... I think that THAT is exactly the whole issue. At least here in Asia. Obvously, all trans*women in the West have an IQ of above 450 and they are all totally aware of all the troubles, that SRS may bring them... so one must hope they make their decisions based on sound and intelligent consideration.

How ever, here in Asia trans*girls do NOT have all the education, that you have in the West. They are just as intelligent, but not as educated.

So it's a tricky matter.

Allow me to return to my initial point, namely that a trans*woman should NOT have to undergo full SRS to be recognized as a legal woman.

As you said, this should be (maybe not quite as easy as dying one's hair), but at least some thing that cannot be considered a threat to national security.

It's about time that we realize that transsexuality is for REAL. It's not a freak show put on by weirdos with an attitude. It's a beautiful form of self expression that we should all be proud to witness. And every decent human being should get in line to fight for the right of every trans*woman to choose her legal gender as she pleases.

It's HER choice! And we should respect her for her choice. We should love her for it.

We should be ever thankful to every single transsexual for bringing "finding one self" a gigantic step closer to being a reality and not just hollow words.

H