There's really nothing honourable about dead American soldiers in an unjust war...

[transjen]

Looks like the goose stepping hail Bush bozos still love his BS war Jennifer

[The Conquistador]

Have any of you been to Iraq or Afghanistan? Have you seen firsthand what actually goes on over there? (And no, the TV, newspaper, internet etc. doesn't count) There is alot more than the media outlets will ever show, and alot of the troops that are/were over there are actually rebuilding the Iraqi infrastructure. I've seen the troops actually going to the schools to teach Iraqi children, helping the nationals get water purification stations and electrical systems up and running and rebuilding hospitals. We are also training the Iraqi and Afghani military to be more efficient in what they do and helping the police force to help maintain order. As much as you don't like it, there are people over there that are doing good and to disgrace our
soldiers who have paid the ultimate price is not cool at all. They are doing a job that I can guarantee that not alot of people would ever step up to the plate to do.

Hank, I am deeply saddened by your post. Please use a bit more discretion when posting.

[The Conquistador]

Hank, I'm sure Obama would tend to disagree with you. Take a gander at this article.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090525/...a_memorial_day

[Bisatinlover]

Hank,

Kindly move you political opinions to another forum and stop bashing our military and our government. What has happened in the past we cannot change. Maybe Obama can make it better so let's wait and see/

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by Bisatinlover

Hank,

Kindly move you political opinions to another forum and stop bashing our military and our government. What has happened in the past we cannot change. Maybe Obama can make it better so let's wait and see/

Yes, I certainly expect Obama to make it better, he cannot possibly do it worse. Besides, it's a free world (here at least) where criticism is not only a right but an obligation.

I'm not bashing your military - but yes, I'm bashing Geo Bush for what I consider a catastrophic presidency that has had a tremenduosly negative impact on the entire globe.

As for all the young women and men who have been killed in this unfortunate war, I pray for them. I'm sure they were all good soldiers who came into harms way - that's the total responsibility of your former administration who initiated an unwinnable war on false terms. The price for this insanity is now being payed by both Allied soldiers and civilians - THAT is the real tragedy!

I do, however, see a degree of point to CreativeMind's explanation that the Google site puts faces on the dead, so that they are not mere statistics. Point taken. None the less, not only American soldiers have died during this crazy war - others have too, both other Allied soldiers and certainly a vast amount of civilians. Why are they not represented? And no, I'm not talking about terrorists and criminals - they asked for it and good riddance.

If this Google site can actually make all us bystanders realize how painful war really is, then I guess it can have some usefulness. Unfortunately, I doubt that there is any such deeper political idea behind it.

Of course, I was fully aware that I would step on some good "patriotic" toes, when I made my posting, but unless we start viewing war in a different perspective, this globe is gonna go. As I also said, war can be a sad necessity - as it was when America had to enter WW2. If they hadn't, Western Europe might likely have fallen to a tyranny that would not only have been very bad news for Europe but also a serious national security issue for America.

But in the end there's no comparison between WW2 and the Iraq-war. Don't make the mistake of ever thinking that...

Peace!

H

[violet lightning]

Originally Posted by transjen

Looks like the goose stepping hail Bush bozos still love his BS war Jennifer

I'm a peace loving hippie at heart, but I have served and I do respect the military and those who serve.
Goose stepping? Do you realize how insulting a remark that really is?

I hate war! Most intelligent, sane people do. I hate what it does to people, to the spirit, to the planet, to the innocent.
Most, if not all Veterans hate war.
I personally don't think we should be in Iraq, but that wasn't the point of discussion was it?
Why is it, if I (or we) disagree with you on some points, that you feel its ok or funny to call me (us) a war-loving Nazi?
I thought this was a forum where we try to be tolerant, understanding, friendly and learn through sharing and open discussion.

I'm the one who's confused.

[transjen]

I have nothing agianst the troops as they are doing there duty the comment was not torward them, I was refering to the bozos who stood and cheered when a AWOL AIR NATIONAL GURAD president started this BS war with lies and turned and said how dare anyone question or dout our presdient and rember 9/11 and if you don't get in line then you are a pinko commie lover, Bush took a tragdy 9/11 and used it to get what ever he wanted while wraping themselves in the American flag while his follewers shouted hail Bush Jennifer

[CreativeMind]

Originally Posted by transjen

I was refering to the bozos who stood and cheered when a AWOL AIR NATIONAL GURAD president started this BS war with lies and turned and said how dare anyone question or dout our presdient and rember 9/11 and if you don't get in line then you are a pinko commie lover, Bush took a tragdy 9/11 and used it to get what ever he wanted while wraping themselves in the American flag while his follewers shouted hail Bush Jennifer

You know, just for the record about Bush and this "BS war"...


"If Saddam rejects peace, we have to use force, our purpose is clear.
We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
--President Bill Clinton

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
--Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser

"We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
--Letter to President Clinton signed by Democratic Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, and others

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
-- Rep. Nancy Pelosi

"Hussein has chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
-- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State

"Iraq made commitments after the Gulf War to completely dismantle all weapons of mass destruction, and unfortunately, Iraq has not lived up to its agreement."
-- Barbara Boxer

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
-- Al Gore

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Ted Kennedy

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years. We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Jay Rockefeller

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
-- Sen. Hillary Clinton

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real."
-- Sen. John F. Kerry


I'm just saying you should keep in mind that going back to the Clinton years most people thought Saddam was on the fast track to acquiring WMDs, and everyone...on BOTH sides of the political aisle...felt that inevitably he was going to have to be taken out by U.S. forces since the United Nations was once again acting like a bunch of clueless, ball-less diplomats -- which frankly, being the worthless sham that it is, is what the UN does best.

[transjen]

I may have let him slide on the WMD had he been upfront and said ok folks i was given bad info and i jumped to soon but no he kept saying they are there we just need more time and then he comes out and says we did it for the good of the people there the whole war was Bush's vandetta because of an idol threat made agianst the Bush clan in the early 90s, after the first towel was hit he wanted to invade Iraq, The tragic of 9'11 was his excuss Jennifer

[violet lightning]

Hank, I totally respect your right to your opinion, and I probably agree with you more than you might think.
You have every right to debate the war; the reasons, the causes, the effects, the culprits, etc.
But I think you could do it openly, without having to connect that argument which is valid, to one obviously meant to be offensive. (At least to us "good patriots")
I think we can probably agree that the problem is the people and conditions that lead to war, not necessarily those that have to fight it.

Peace.

[violet lightning]

Ok, I think we all have some common goals.
I think we agree that the main way to end war is to make EVERYONE, especially heads of state and politicians, understand that war is just too costly in terms of everything to ever undertake.
Make them all sit and watch "The Fog of War", "The Day After" and "Two Women".
If the google map project could map out the dead from all wars, including combatants, civilians, and animals, it would be heartbreakingly clear.

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by violet lightning

Hank, I totally respect your right to your opinion, and I probably agree with you more than you might think.
You have every right to debate the war; the reasons, the causes, the effects, the culprits, etc.
But I think you could do it openly, without having to connect that argument which is valid, to one obviously meant to be offensive. (At least to us "good patriots")
I think we can probably agree that the problem is the people and conditions that lead to war, not necessarily those that have to fight it.

Peace.

I hope you realize, that I NEVER wanted to belittle the hazardous circumstances that the now gone American soldiers were put into. By a ridiculous administration who is now in retirement grilling steaks and laughing their macho asses off while their stupid wives walk around unfulfilled but with round mouths...

But don't mistake the whole world outside America, please. We have a slightly two-sided view on matters. Your American soldiers were brought to war to kill others, and I'm sure many of them did - effectively - even to the good of the socalled but rather devastated brand of socalled "Western Democrazy".

Had this been a truly "good and honest" war, then I'd never have stepped on anybody's Republican toes. How ever, this has all from the start been a nasty thing.

I don't think a single one of your soldiers should ever have died under these sad and corrupt circumstances, but fact is that they did. I don't think any one should have carried the terror of Geo Bush's insanity. The fact is, how ever, that so many did.

But, please, don't be naive sentimentalists... if you show up with M16s, then people shoot back - and they hit sometimes... hopefully you can find some comfort in the fact that you killed so much more...

War is evil and should be entered into cautiously. Unfortunately Geo Bush had his own ugly plan...

So as I suggested b4: Peace!

H