"Real Girls"

[smc]

Hank poses the following imaginary conversation to support that his phrase is "impractical":

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

Question: "Hey Hank, are you gay or str8?"

Answer: "I'm a guy like me who likes a girl like her..."

Question: "What is that?"

Answer: "My girlfriend is transsexual"

Question: "Oh, why didn't you say so to my first question...?"

How about this answer:

What difference does it make?

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by smc

Hank poses the following imaginary conversation to support that his phrase is "impractical":



How about this answer:

What difference does it make?

That's basicly what I answer... but it still would be easier if guys like me who like girls like her could have a more prudent label...

[smc]

I'm sure you realize that I'm not really arguing with you. I just wish so much that we all would stop worrying about labels. The endless threads asking about being gay make me want to scream.

Of course, I blame seriously skewed social mores, and the fact that (especially in the United States) "morality" is about matters sexual and rarely about truly amoral things like poverty and war, rather than the individuals who keep posing these questions and fretting over how others will judge their sexual preferences.

[Bionca]

Originally Posted by smc

I'm sure you realize that I'm not really arguing with you. I just wish so much that we all would stop worrying about labels. The endless threads asking about being gay make me want to scream.

For various reasons I hate those questions too. I'll bet for different reasons than the majority here. Labeling won't go away - which is why I think you all should suss out a name for what you are, if the existing ones don't work. Or embrace them if they do. While working for a society that abandons the need sort people out into easy to digest groups.

[Bionca]

I like how this has turned into a discussion of labels as they apply to the cis* folks who date gals like me.

It is a mark of privilege to be able to say that labels don't matter. The reality is, to society at large, they DO matter. A cis* person does not have basic choices and aspects of their identity and life routinely questioned, discounted, and invalidated. A heterosexual person does not have their relationships routinely belittled and called perverted. A white person is not told that race is the most important part of who they are.

You can go on and believe that labels don't matter. The reality is, you will be labeled and probably incorrectly at that. Even amongst the Trans* community, you guys are labeled as "chasers" and "admirers" (at best) - neither of these are particularly flattering. Both of them apply to a large segment of guys who are attracted to trans* women.

Chaser - has a connotation of someone eternally looking to move on. Chasing one girl after another, never satisfied with who he has.

Admirer - Is passive, where Chaser is active. A guy who lurks in the shadows, has dirty secrets and then slinks back to his life with no investment (other than economic) and no ties.

These are the roles set for you guys to work with. You can either be comfortable with them, work against them, or come up with something else. The benefit of having a label, a name, an identity is to claim the ability to self-definition. Self-determination is the first step to liberation for all of us.

[smc]

Bionca is absolutely correct when she writes, "It is a mark of privilege to be able to say that labels don't matter." So, I want to clarify: it's not that I think they do not matter -- obviously, if we are to live in a society in which we are all labeled, it is something with which we must constantly deal -- but that I long for the time when the will not matter. Getting there is most likely a process that involves a combination of finding the "correct" or "best" label that frees us from the stigmas associated with ones previously used, and vigilantly speaking out against labeling.

It is abhorrent that anyone should "have basic choices and aspects of their identity and life routinely questioned, discounted, and invalidated," as Bionca writes. It is true that people "will be labeled and probably incorrectly at that." I am just suggesting some ways to deal with this by those of us who, as Bionca so correctly notes, are not as often victimized by such actions.

Vigilance demands that we never fail to notice when it is happening and take every opportunity to speak out against it.

Last night, I watched the film "Milk." I was struck by Harvey Milk's strategy for building opposition to the anti-gay Proposition 6 in California back in 1978. He encouraged every gay man and lesbian in the state to come out to their friends, families, neighbors, work colleagues, etc. His argument was that once everyone realized that they knew someone who would be victimized by the passage of the proposition, it would turn a lot of minds away from voting yes. That same concept informs my approach to dismissing labels.

So, while at the same time we must live with them, and their is value in finding "better" ones, I strongly encourage everyone to take the most simple approach -- whenever possible -- and simply refuse to be labeled, in whatever way one can. Both are part of the "self-determination" that Bionca so aptly identifies as "the first step to liberation for all of us."

[transjen]

Labels labels labels all these labels and the reason is as human's we need to put everything into neat tidy little groups and truth be told it can't be done but we try anyway Jennifer

[racquel]

I guess sometimes you have to use labels. I'd certainly rather be just referred to in standard feminine terms. But I really don't mind "girl like you" or "pre-op" or just about anything. The only thing that really bothers me is being referred to as "gurl" online. That's such a fucked up word. Are people trying to combine "girl" and "guy"? And cranky lesbians who act like I'm a drag queen annoy me.

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

My sweet Fey once called me a "shemale-collector" and a "shemale-protector", but I doubt that applies either...

Shemale protector? Is that some kind of heavy-duty version of the Reality condom that's made for anal?

[MikeyNice]

Things evolve over time and work themselves out. Labels are necessary I think. I could be completely wrong here, but there seems to be an explosion of passable TS girls lately. More and more men are admitting that they like this and over time there might be as many TG people as there are gay people. As science figures out the brain and we get better hormones, people will learn too. What I'm saying is that even though there have been TG people all throughout history, it is now becomming practical, more understood and more common. Give people who have not had the experiences you've had a little time. People are not as arrogant as much as they might seem. Be less sensitive and understand that not everyone can be in the same state of mind as everyone else at the same time. Everyone even has a couple different of our own moods a day. To each their own right?

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by racquel

I guess sometimes you have to use labels. I'd certainly rather be just referred to in standard feminine terms. But I really don't mind "girl like you" or "pre-op" or just about anything. The only thing that really bothers me is being referred to as "gurl" online. That's such a fucked up word. Are people trying to combine "girl" and "guy"? And cranky lesbians who act like I'm a drag queen annoy me.




Shemale protector? Is that some kind of heavy-duty version of the Reality condom that's made for anal?

Ouch... ;-) Considering my nasty history of BBing I don't think so... :D

Nooo, Fey got slightly political... the way I like my women ;-)

I don't mind labels at all - actually it's kinda interesting. In branding and identity-design where I have by daily capacity, we SEARCH for labels to simplify and enhance communication. The fact is that whether we like it or not, we all get assigned an identity - and if we don't attempt to control the labelling (aka branding) then the market will control it - and most often NOT to our benefit. Companies, organisations, people, sexualities, politics... it's human nature to label and to identify aspects in ways so that they can relate to it more easily.

Nothing bad about that unless the labelling is based on ignorance, which it most often is in regards to trans-life from cis*folks.

The labelling must come from us!

H

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by racquel

The only thing that really bothers me is being referred to as "gurl" online. That's such a fucked up word. Are people trying to combine "girl" and "guy"?

No racquel that is merely just illiteracy trying to be hip. Obviously the regular spelling of "girl" is too blah so they had to spice it up a bit.

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

No racquel that is merely just illiteracy trying to be hip. Obviously the regular spelling of "girl" is too blah so they had to spice it up a bit.

Haha... must be an acute case of misspelling :-) a chick is a chick, a guy is a guy and, surely, a girl is a girl... and, grrr, Mizzy R is certainly a girrrl... just 12.000 kms much too far away...