Transexuals through history

[sosed]

Well, my question is unusual, but maybe here are members, who are historiers or archeologists or just people, who knows if that kind of historical researches were done. Transsexual persons are not something, what happened only in last century, but were for sure also in other historical times and societies. I know history and archeology only in last times research life of ordinary people, but would be interesting to see, how different societies in different times see and relate with trans persons and how they try to help them.

Maybe the most interesting could be ancient Egyptians, because they were very free and open society, who respect every life, be it of human, be it of animal and where males and females have the same rights, legal protection and freedom and were equal, because in their religion gods and godesses works as devine couples. Egyptians were also very strict to write everything and they left a lot of mummified bodies, scientists could research. They have also very advanced medicine and kirurgy for their time. I wonder how they see transpersons? Did they see them as ill or mad persons or they accept and understand them and try to help them as they could. Of course they could not change their bodies as we could now, but there are also very interesting statues of Pharaoh Ehnathon, which have very feminine curves.

Moderators could place this treat in more proper section if this not belong here.

[sosed]

I watched a documentary on History channel about ancient plastic surgery, which talk about ancient Indian, ancient Egyptian and ancient Greeco-Roman surgery. They knew a lot of surgery procedures, which were reinvented in modern times and written in their medicine books and scriptures. They didn't have silicone implants or laser technics as we have today and we still don't know what kind of anestezy the used, but they were able to do some plastic surgery. They assume that famous Egyptian queen Nefertiti have face surgery to be the one of perfect face.

[SluttyShemaleAnna]

Seeing as someone done gone mentioned Egypt, check this one out: http://heritage-key.com/blogs/ann/tr...eum-collection

[sosed]

Thank you for link. Interesting reading. Fact, that mummy have penis, but in scriptures is addressed to be female actually show, that Egyptians recognize transwoman to be a woman, although they were not able to change her completely to woman. It would be interesting to see or read one day, how far ancient medicine could help transpeople in their transition or if there are scriptures about their lives in society.

[stephanie4life]

Hoover was a crossed dresser, Ed Wood was a crossdresser, one of the last sitting Ceasers of Rome was a Tranny of course she came out after becoming a ceaser.her name slips my mind, but needless to say she didn't last long before she was assasinated.

[sosed]

Originally Posted by stephanie4life

Hoover was a crossed dresser, Ed Wood was a crossdresser, one of the last sitting Ceasers of Rome was a Tranny of course she came out after becoming a ceaser.her name slips my mind, but needless to say she didn't last long before she was assasinated.

You are correct, it was emperor Elegabalus (218-222), who prostitute himslef with a wig as woman and offer a vast sums of money to physician, who could make him female genitalia. He was killed by praetorian guard, be it for his sexual orientation, be it for other reasons, as many other emperors.

Interesting is his idea to have sex change operation. It seems that surgery in that time was very advanced and they did various plastic surgeries, of course for a lot of money, that that kind of idea become an offer. Maybe medicine in that ancient time know it is possible, just no one want to take that risk.

[sosed]

http://en-gb.facebook.com/topic.php?...43908&topic=74

http://www.sliceofscifi.com/2008/05/...n-transsexual/

http://www.prntrkmt.org/geography/nile.html

Few interesting articles.

Egyptian Nile river God/Goddess Hapi is both fully male God and fully female Goddess.

Of course example or few examples are not representative, but it seems there are more mummies in female coffins and addressed with female names, but with male body/genitals. This is interesting, because Egyptians took afterlife very serious and they knew, that a person could reach afterlife in underworld only if Gods recognize him/her with his correct name. They bury transwoman in female coffin and with female name although born in male body, what could show they recognize her to be a woman and it seems Gods were also fine with that, after all Hapi was a deity in both genders.

It seems that in some ancient societies transgender people were recognized, respected and had the same rights as all other citizens. Today they are fighting for the rights and recognition, which they already have in past and it is not something they never have before.

[stephanie4life]

Well now there is some interesting reading.

[smc]

Let's not leave out the experience of the French explorers Louis Joliet and Jacques Marquette. As they crossed the American continent in the 1670s, they came upon the Illini tribe (for whom Illinois is named). They wrote in their journal that there was a group of Illini men who acted out the social role of women in the tribe and even dressed in women's clothes ... what the tribe called "Ikoneta." Joliet called them "berdache."

[not2old]

There's an ancient tradition in Polynesia of "mahu", raising a first son as a girl. Apparently still practiced to some extent, and seems to have spun off today's "rae rae" in Tahiti.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xaln-yAAZck

[Melissa Pink]

I surprised that no one has mentioned Christina Jorgenson yet. I read her biography when I was young. As I read about her life I was fascinated with reading about the first person known to have sexual reassignment surgery in 1952. I readily identified with her feelings and respect her courage to be a pioneer in something that has become fairly common in today's society. I'm not sure society is anymore open minded about girls like me, but I think that technology and the Internet has made the world a smaller place. It's easier for transgenders and those that are attracted to them to connect. That is a good thing! This is a link to an article about Miss Jorgenson.


http://www.transgenderzone.com/featu...eJorgensen.htm

[sosed]

In Greeco-Roman they show god/dess Hermaphrodite as woman with penis and Greeks make statues of male form of goddes Aphrodita named Aphroditus as woman who lift her skirt to show penis.

Ancient societies also talk about third gender, which was quite wide term and they are not only eunuchs. Many transgender persons serve as priests in goddess cult, where they often castrate themselves and live as woman like Gallae priest in Cybile mother goddess cult. Romans tolerate them, but Roman citizens were not allowed to be priests in the cult.

[Smoothie]

Very interesting topic, I'll hit the books.

[Florian]

Is anyone aware of a male tennis player who was reasigned female? I did a search, but couldn't find anything.

[smc]

Originally Posted by Florian

Is anyone aware of a male tennis player who was reasigned female? I did a search, but couldn't find anything.

Ren?e Richards ... very famous. Hard to imagine that you couldn't find anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards

[Florian]

Originally Posted by smc

Ren?e Richards ... very famous. Hard to imagine that you couldn't find anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards

Well, if I'd had the name to start with, it would have been different!

[smc]

Originally Posted by Florian

Well, if I'd had the name to start with, it would have been different!

No name required. All you needed to do was Google the following:

transsexual tennis player

The link is the first to come up!

[sosed]

A statue of sleepy Hermaphrodite. A beautiful statue was Borghese from Roman era.

It seems ancient Eastern Mesopotamian societies like Sumer or Hitites quite respect transsexual priestesses and see them as divine gift and mediator with gods, because they have both poles in one person. They see transsexual priestesses as called from Goddess to became woman and priestess and were under her protection. Later Roman males (and in other patriarhal societies) feared to be called from Goddess. In Sumer, for man having sex with Assinnu priestess in temple was blessing from goddess herself and all troubles will leave the man.

[Smoothie]

Originally Posted by sosed

A statue of sleepy Hermaphrodite. A beautiful statue was Borghese from Roman era.

It seems ancient Eastern Mesopotamian societies like Sumer or Hitites quite respect transsexual priestesses and see them as divine gift and mediator with gods, because they have both poles in one person. They see transsexual priestesses as called from Goddess to became woman and priestess and were under her protection. Later Roman males (and in other patriarhal societies) feared to be called from Goddess. In Sumer, for man having sex with Assinnu priestess in temple was blessing from goddess herself and all troubles will leave the man.

Similar to Phosphora, it is difficult to find any history pertaining transexualism besides a sculpure or two. Can't say either way, but sculpures did not last all these ages to meld modern lies.

Is there anyplace that you can purchase a reproduction of this sculpture? Seems fairly unheard of.

[sosed]

Long ago in the land of Sumer, Asushunamir was created by Enki to rescue Queen Inanna from the ?Land of No Return.?

Inanna was and is the Queen of Heaven ? Great Goddess to all. She was given great gifts by Enki the Wise ? wisdom, justice, love, the sacred women, and the fruit of the vine. She held these gifts to her heart and shared them with the people of the earth.

It came to pass that Inanna descended into the underworld to see her sister Ereshkigal, the Queen of the Underworld, who was mourning the death of her husband.

Inanna?s presence in the Underworld angered Ereshkigal, and she imprisoned Inanna and refused to give her the water of life and bread of life that would allow Inanna to return to the land of the living. Because Inanna lay dying in a cell in the underworld, the world of the living ceased to thrive with life.

When Enki was told of these events, he fashioned from the dirt beneath his fingernails a being of light called, Asushunamir to rescue the Great Goddess. Asushunamir, being of light, whose face is radiant, beautiful in countenance, clothed in the stars, male and female, companion to Inanna.

Enki told Asushunamir that she/he must give the water of life and the bread of life to Inanna to restore her life.

Asushunamir knew the spell of Ereshkigal could not possess her/him.
When she/he arrived in the underworld, Ereshkigal was charmed by Asushunamir?s beauty, moved by his/her voice, amused by his/her dance. Ereshkigal called for a great feast to be held in his/her honor; the best wine, the finest meats, the most sumptuous of fruit. Ereshkigal dreamed of taking this beautiful being to her bed, and of keeping her/him forever with her in the Land of the Dead.

But, Asushunamir was careful to pour the wine upon the floor and to eat no food prepared by the servants of Ereshkigal. For he/she knew to eat or drink in the land of the dead is to forever remain there.

When the Queen of the Dead became drunk from the wine, Asushunamir asked if she/he might taste the water of life and the bread of life, kept locked in the cellar. This was the water of which Enki had spoken when Asushunamir came into the world, the water with which one must be sprinkled to pass through the seven gates of Irkalla, the water to renew one?s life on earth.

Ereshkigal cried out, ?Namtar, bring the jug with the water of life. I shall grant the wish of this charming creature.?

Later, when Ereshkigal fell into a deep sleep, Asushunamir made his/her way to the dark cell where Inanna, captive, lay dying. She/he sprinkled Inanna with the water of life and placed a piece of the bread of life to her lips. Inanna began to breath easily as a child might breathe and then awakened.

Beautiful and once more flowing with the energy of life, Inanna quickly made her way through the seven gates of Irkalla, ascending to earth, causing the flowers to grow and restoring the trees to green. People returned to their planting, their weaving, their making of wine, their love making, and a great feast was held in honor of the return of Inanna.

Asushunamir was not as fortunate. Ereshkigal awoke as she/he was approaching the seventh gate, and neither his/her beauty, nor his/her charm, nor his/her dancing or songs, could extinguish the passion that had turned to hate.

?The food of the gutter shall thou eat,? cried Ereshkigal, her every word a curse.

?The water of the sewer shall be your drink. In the shadows you shall abide, despised and hated by even your own kind.? Having pronounced the curse, Ereshkigal banished Asushunamir.

When Inanna learned of the curse placed upon Asushunamir, she wept and spoke softly that no one might hear. ?The power of Ereshkigal is great. No one dares to defy her. Yet I may soften her curse upon you, as spring arrives to banish winter. Those who are like you, my assinnu and kalum and kugarru and kalaturru, lovers of men, kin to my sacred women, shall be strangers in their own homes. Their families will keep them in the shadows and will leave them nothing. The drunken shall smite them, and the mighty shall imprison them. But if you remember me, how you were born from the light of the stars to save me, and through me the earth, from darkness and death, then I shall harbor you and your kind. You shall be my favored children, and I shall make you my priestesses. I shall grant you the gift of prophecy, the wisdom of the earth and the moon and all that they govern, and you shall banish illness from my children, even as you have stolen me from the clutches of Ereshkigal.?

?And when you dress in my robes, I shall dance in your feet and sing in your throats. No man shall be able to resist your enchantments.? ?When the earthen jug is brought from Irkalla, lions shall leap in the deserts, and you shall be freed from the spell of Ereshkigal. Once more you will be called Asushunamir, a being clothed in light. Your kind shall be called Those Whose Faces Are Brilliant, Those Who Have Come to Renew the Light, The Blessed of Inanna.?

Sumer legend of goddess Inanna. Asushunamir were created to resque goddess Inanna from underworld back to the World. Although they were cursed, they are under goddedd Inanna protection. Ancient people believe, that trans people were called by goddess herself, mother goddess.

Roman goddess Venus Castina was associated with male to female transsexuals.

When the World will return to mother nature, transexuals will again receive their respect and place in society and be her beloved priestesses.

[MacShreach]

Originally Posted by sosed

Sumer legend of goddess Inanna. Asushunamir were created to resque goddess Inanna from underworld back to the World. Although they were cursed, they are under goddedd Inanna protection. Ancient people believe, that trans people were called by goddess herself, mother goddess.

Roman goddess Venus Castina was associated with male to female transsexuals.

When the World will return to mother nature, transexuals will again receive their respect and place in society and be her beloved priestesses.

Sosed, would you please give me a source for the quote in your post? Obviously it's a version of 'Innana's Descent into the Underworld' but not one I recognise. I would really appreciate a reference

Thanks in advance

[randolph]

This is an interesting site regarding the myth of Innana.
http://www.faerywolf.com/myth_asushunamir.htm

[rjm1971]

Not sure if it has been mentioned , as I am new here, but "Saraph" mention in Greek, Latin, Hebrew and even Christian literature (angel hierarchy) is said to have female angelic body features and both sets of genitals as well. Including breasts of course.

[sosed]

Some sources for Istar / Inanna legend.

http://crimsonwolfe.tripod.com/id53.html

http://www.inanna.virtualave.net/asushunamir.html

http://www.reocities.com/Athens/olympus/2179/

http://ecclasia.com/inanna.html

http://signsandportents.net/?p=388

Different sources, but the same story.

Picture of Roman Herculaneum fresco of Hermaphroditus.

[Florian]

Originally Posted by rjm1971

Not sure if it has been mentioned , as I am new here, but "Saraph" mention in Greek, Latin, Hebrew and even Christian literature (angel hierarchy) is said to have female angelic body features and both sets of genitals as well. Including breasts of course.

I'm no expert on angels, but always believed they were men only. Please tell me more!

[Elonar]

Originally Posted by Florian

I'm no expert on angels, but always believed they were men only. Please tell me more!

The Judaeo-Christian tradition rooted in that of the Hebrews invariably presented its authority as patriarchal. This probably explains why Jahweh, Jehovah, and God had to be referred to as ' He ', and the lesser spirit minions such as Cherubim, and Seraphs doing ' his ' bidding would carry divine masculine authority. Hence Michael, Raphael, Lucifer ( Satan ), Azrael etc would all be considered ' He-s ' . For female Divinities and spirits, you would have to look to the Babylonian tradition.

After all, in the Christian Tradition, the Virgin Mary conceived by divine intervention, and since Mary was female, however mystical you make it, the logical conclusion is that she was impregnated, and that the divine medium for that took on male powers to do that !

But when you are dealing with matters of pure faith and conjecture, even the impossible becomes possible.

Personally I prefer to view my Guardian Angel ( if indeed I have one ) as essentially female - so much more sympathetic and non-judgmental !

[sosed]

In early Hebrew kingdoms of Juda and Israel they worship both god Jahweh and goddess Astarte. But later also with pressure of Jahweh clerics and kings Hebrews abandon goddess Astarte and prohibit her worship. It was politics of that time, which create Jewish religion as it was.

[sosed]

I find interesting book about Gallae priestesses with headline The Gallae: transgender priests of ancient Greece, Rome and the Near East.

In ancient times societies never associate third gender, where they see eunuchs, castrates, trans persons, etc, as males. For them, they are neither male neither female, but usually their role is associated with females in contrast with today, where many people associate tgirls with males, because they still have penis.

[franalexes]

Originally Posted by Florian

I'm no expert on angels, but always believed they were men only. Please tell me more!

In our human minds, inferior as they are, we have created perhaps this vision of male and female angels. But angels being of devine and heavenly creation have no need of sex and therefore is there any distinction of male or female?
We don't know what we don't know.

[Florian]

Thank God I'm not of heavenly creation!

Originally Posted by franalexes

In our human minds, inferior as they are, we have created perhaps this vision of male and female angels. But angels being of devine and heavenly creation have no need of sex and therefore is there any distinction of male or female?
We don't know what we don't know.

[smc]

I came across this wonderful take on ancient Greek pottery and thought it would be worth posting in this thread. (Kudos to the artist, Anasheya.)

[franalexes]

If that is from the Greek era, one wonders if TS existed then or if men had erotic dreams of being women.
Probably both.

[smc]

Originally Posted by franalexes

If that is from the Greek era, one wonders if TS existed then or if men had erotic dreams of being women.
Probably both.

Please note that I wrote it is a "take on ancient Greek pottery," not an actual example.

There were transsexuals in ancient Greece. Most notably, there were the gallae, priests of Kybele. You could look it up.

[Florian]

I tried "gallae" and got redirected to "galli", being the plural of "gaul", which is totally irrelevant. With Kybele I got redirected to Cybele. I always knew her as Cybele, but I think your use of K rather than C would be more accurate as the name came to us via the greeks.

Originally Posted by smc

Please note that I wrote it is a "take on ancient Greek pottery," not an actual example.

There were transsexuals in ancient Greece. Most notably, there were the gallae, priests of Kybele. You could look it up.

[smc]

Originally Posted by Florian

I tried "gallae" and got redirected to "galli", being the plural of "gaul", which is totally irrelevant. With Kybele I got redirected to Cybele. I always knew her as Cybele, but I think your use of K rather than C would be more accurate as the name came to us via the greeks.

If you Googled "Gallae" and came up with nothing, only the redirect, then there's something wrong with your "Google machine." In any case, this undergraduate thesis (for one example) --

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...F0xjGV7CoA3ftw

-- became a published book.

"Cybele" is the common, but less accurate transliteration of Κυβέλη (note the Kappa).