Arab Spring

[smc]

Some years ago, the former U.S. National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski wrote, "The Israelis are becoming increasingly like the white supremacist South Africans, viewing the Palestinians as a lower form of life, not hesitating to kill a great many of them."

I mention this to buttress my earlier points about Zionism, but also to reinforce that racism is part and parcel of the Zionist-Palestinian dynamic and hence central to this discussion.

[randolph]

In 1988 Zbigniew Brzezinski wrote "The Grand Chessboard" a prescient piece on our hegemony in Eurasia. I think as far as our hegemony in the Middle east is concerned, our invasion of Iraq was a critical error empowering Iran. Dr. Brzezinski would probably agree. It also empowered Al Ouida thruout the middle east and the Taliban in Afghanistan. The Bush foreign policy will likely go down in history as the turning point in the decline on US influence in the middle east.
We are now standing by as one middle eastern country after another is rebelling against rulers that maintained control over the needs and desires of increasingly restive populations with military hardware supplied mostly by us.
It is interesting to contemplate; what if we had not invaded Iraq would the Iraq people have rebelled on their own, along with their Arab Spring neighbors?

[ila]

Originally Posted by randolph

...I think as far as our hegemony in the Middle east is concerned, our invasion of Iraq was a critical error empowering Iran. Dr. Brzezinski would probably agree. It also empowered Al Ouida thruout the middle east and the Taliban in Afghanistan...[/SIZE]

It did no such thing. Iran already had power and influence throughout the Middle East What it did do is give Iran an opening in Iraq to try to increase their influence there. Al Qaida and the Taliban did not gain any influence as a result of the US invasion of Iraq. Both of the those groups were well established before the invasion of Iraq.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by ila

It did no such thing. Iran already had power and influence throughout the Middle East What it did do is give Iran an opening in Iraq to try to increase their influence there. Al Qaida and the Taliban did not gain any influence as a result of the US invasion of Iraq. Both of the those groups were well established before the invasion of Iraq.

True Iran has power and influence but Iraq acted as a counter to that power and influence.

There is good evidence that our invasion of Iraq resulted in more Arabs joining Al Quida

Also, the Iraq invasion diverted our attention away from Afghanistan allowing the Taliban to regroup.

[ila]

Originally Posted by randolph

Also, the Iraq invasion diverted our attention away from Afghanistan allowing the Taliban to regroup.

It's true that Iraq did take the US attention away from Afghanistan, but the US was not the only country involved there. The other countries that had soldiers there were managing quite well.

[randolph]

Ila, as moderator, has asked me to retract my use of the term "camel jockey" in a post and I do so. My intention was not to offend anybody, I was referring to the past plight of Arabs. I regret the use of the term and apologise to forum members and anybody else who saw it. Camel driver is what I should have used.

[randolph]

The next few years are going to be quite exciting in the middle east. Israel's isolation and continuing intransigence regarding settlements is causing divergent Palestinian groups to consolidate and prepare to confront Israel. I am sure Iran will be glad to provide them with increasingly more sophisticated and accurate missiles. Israel seems to be on a suicidal path.

[Elonar]

Originally Posted by ila

It did no such thing. Iran already had power and influence throughout the Middle East What it did do is give Iran an opening in Iraq to try to increase their influence there. Al Qaida and the Taliban did not gain any influence as a result of the US invasion of Iraq. Both of the those groups were well established before the invasion of Iraq.

Any observations from you regarding the development of Al Quaida training areas in both the Yemen and Somalia ? Any correlation to Iraqi destabilisation ?

[randolph]

The Libya revolution seems like a good idea. Get rid of Quaddifi and establish a Westward leaning democracy. Now Islamists, well equipped with sophisticated arms gathered up in Libya are taking over the country Mali. France has decided to put a stop to this and is bombing Islamists strongholds and putting troops on the ground. The troops have been surprised by how well trained and well equiped the Islamists are. The fall of dictators that have been supported by the West and Russia and loaded up with advanced weapons has unforeseen consequences as we are seeing in North Africa. I suspect the same thing will happen with the fall of Syria.

[ila]

Originally Posted by Elonar

Any observations from you regarding the development of Al Quaida training areas in both the Yemen and Somalia ? Any correlation to Iraqi destabilisation ?

Yemen has been an unstable country for decades. No one has ever been able to control the whole country. Al Qaeda was able to set up there because the central government can't control the whole country.

Somalia hasn't had a national government for more than twenty years because of the civil war. It is due to this civil war that Al Qaeda was able to move in there, but I don't think there influence is as great as it was even five years ago.

Some of the problems in Iraq are due to Al Qaeda, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out that Iran is alos a destabilizing force there. Iraq has had internal tensions for a long time, but Hussein was able to keep his country stable although the tension was always just below the surface.

[baasje43]

Stumbling in to this discussion searching for something totally different,
and mostly not so much into this kind of discussions (my english too poor?)
I did read the very well elaborated contributions of SMC.
and it was a flow of recognition.
In the early sixties I was alraedy confused about the notion of the horrors of Hitler and the unbelievebable atrocities of the Israeli occupation (demolitions, murder, etc.) But many called any doubt in that matter as anti semitism. Never got this straight. When I visited a goed friend in 2000 in Israel he and his wife put a stone on the grave of Ben Gurion. I did so too, as an act of courtesy to my friends wife, but with mixed feelings.
I knew it is wrong what Israel does. But all the evidence SMC put together is a eloquent and scholastical piece of historical prove of theis.

Thank You for this.