Liberal free for all coming to an end

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by randolph

In the above post, SMC says it very well.
We pledge alligence to a country that is supposed to provide liberty and justice for all. Our history tells a different story. Slavery and the struggles of working people to gain justice and a living wage have been with us since the beginning. The rich have always wanted to grasp more power and wealth and the politicians have usually been more than willing to facilitate their desires.
Massive protests like the teamsters strike on the West coast in the 1930s awakened the public and forced the politicians to listen to the working classes, albeit temporarily.
The current BMW case in California where they are firing their long term workers and contracting out their employment hiring is a recent example of disregard for basic justice. The American public loaned BMW billions to keep them going and this is the thanks we get. Where is the justice?
Take away healthcare insurance - where is the justice?
Take away the safety net of social security - where is the justice?
Take away a living wage - where is the justice?
Saddle the public with massive debt for the benefit of the rich - where is the justice?
What will it take to gain some justice in this country, the land of the free and home of the brave???

Yup, the land of the free and home of the brave and it began with the murder and displacement of Indians and the enslavement of Africans. An august beginning if ever I heard one for a free country. How people reconcile the idea of the founding of America as a watershed in freedom with the slave economy--even though the textbooks do not lie about the chattel slavery; mine didn't anyway--is beyond me. I don't think justice had anything to do with it. And the people in power and those who support them care not a whit for justice either. George Carlin has a routine about that but I've no idea what the rules are for posting links. Neither can I find them.

To paraphrase him: the US was founded by a bunch of slave owners who wanted to be free!

[ila]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yup, the land of the free and home of the brave and it began with the murder and displacement of Indians and the enslavement of Africans. An august beginning if ever I heard one for a free country. How people reconcile the idea of the founding of America as a watershed in freedom with the slave economy--even though the textbooks do not lie about the chattel slavery; mine didn't anyway--is beyond me. George Carlin has a routine about that but I've no idea what the rules are for posting links. Neither can I find them.

Actually it didn't begin with the enslavement of Africans. It started with people leaving England due to religious reasons. Also don't forget about the complicity of the Africans themselves in the slave trade. If it wasn't for Africans capturing and selling other Africans then there would not have been the slave trade to the Americas.

The slave trade also did not start with Europeans buying slaves from Africans. The slave trade dates back thousands of years.

As for the murder part of your statement, do not forget that for millenia humans have been on the move throughout the world taking over lands which others were already occupying with the inevitable battles and killing that followed.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by ila

Actually it didn't begin with the enslavement of Africans. It started with people leaving England due to religious reasons. Also don't forget about the complicity of the Africans themselves in the slave trade. If it wasn't for Africans capturing and selling other Africans then there would not have been the slave trade to the Americas.

The slave trade also did not start with Europeans buying slaves from Africans. The slave trade dates back thousands of years.

As for the murder part of your statement, do not forget that for millenia humans have been on the move throughout the world taking over lands which others were already occupying with the inevitable battles and killing that followed.

Oh I'm not. History is written in blood. This I sadly know.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. Let me see if I can. I was speaking about the colonies themselves, not the Pilgrims, and the hypocrisy inherent in the founding of a free nation...with the institution of slavery. I did know that Africans would enslave one another frequently and they provided quite a few (most?) of the slaves for the colonies. As for the last paragraph: yep, can't and won't deny it. People have funny horrifying tribal inclinations.

[ila]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Oh I'm not. History is written in blood. This I sadly know.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. Let me see if I can. I was speaking about the colonies themselves, not the Pilgrims, and the hypocrisy inherent in the founding of a free nation...with the institution of slavery. I did know that Africans would enslave one another frequently and they provided quite a few (most?) of the slaves for the colonies.

I understand now what you were saying.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

As for the last paragraph: yep, can't and won't deny it. People have funny horrifying tribal inclinations.

This is all so very true.

[Enoch Root]

I could have sworn I've seen a longer version with better audiovisual quality, sadly I can't find such a thing and my patience does not seem to hold out for such things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSJmYnHdvsc

He used to be so alive back then.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by ila

I understand now what you were saying.



This is all so very true.

I should have written: I was not clear.

[transjen]

I fail to see what the GOP is bitching about
Every time they have made deals with this president they gave up nothing and walked away with just about everything they wanted
Like the extension of the Bush taxcuts
And yet agian today he is putting everything on the table and the GOP are taking and not giving
Cuts to medicare social security making the poor and elderly suffer and pay all the defecit while tax breaks for the top two percent and corpate welfare conitues untouched and may be increased
I wish i saved my nuts so i could give em to the president as he really needs a set
Jerseygirl Jen

[smc]

Originally Posted by transjen

I fail to see what the GOP is bitching about
Every time they have made deals with this president they gave up nothing and walked away with just about everything they wanted
Like the extension of the Bush taxcuts
And yet agian today he is putting everything on the table and the GOP are taking and not giving
Cuts to medicare social security making the poor and elderly suffer and pay all the defecit while tax breaks for the top two percent and corpate welfare conitues untouched and may be increased
I wish i saved my nuts so i could give em to the president as he really needs a set
Jerseygirl Jen

It should be noted that with respect to social security, it has absolutely no connection whatsoever to the U.S. federal deficit. Social Security is paid for by payroll taxes and employer contributions. There is sufficient money in the Social Security Trust Fund to pay benefits for the next 25 years. There are changes that could be made (most specifically, means testing so that the wealthy pay into it differently or take nothing out) that would make the Trust Fund secure for twice or three times as long. But making ANY change to Social Security right now will have absolutely NO IMPACT on the federal deficit. NONE WHATSOEVER.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by transjen

I fail to see what the GOP is bitching about
Every time they have made deals with this president they gave up nothing and walked away with just about everything they wanted
Like the extension of the Bush taxcuts
And yet agian today he is putting everything on the table and the GOP are taking and not giving
Cuts to medicare social security making the poor and elderly suffer and pay all the defecit while tax breaks for the top two percent and corpate welfare conitues untouched and may be increased
I wish i saved my nuts so i could give em to the president as he really needs a set
Jerseygirl Jen

LMAO! When Jen is this upset about Obama that can only mean good news for the US.