One more Murdered

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by smc

The reason matters not, for the act is unjustifiable, and no discussion or analysis that seeks to explain it takes away that fact.

"The reason matters not" ???

That must be the most amazingly provocative thing I've heard to date here (and I've heard some major dumb things here, I tell you).

You just want to let her go away and try to cover it up in some pleasant "let it all pass" mentality! Like. "Let's make it sweet and silent..."?

She was murdered because of her transsexuality in a country that salutes itself to be an openminded democracy.

When do you people LEARN the facts of your own faschism? When do you STOP saying "The reason matters not" ?

What matters here is SO the reason. The reason that trannies are fair game in a closeminded society. A society that will even say "The reason matters not".

You BET it matters! Shame on you all! And that goes for Ila too, who conveniently wants to sweep the dishonour of the deed under a carpet.

Let us enjoy the little trannies... but let us FOR GOODNESS SAKE avoid the magnitude of shame when they get raped, fucked, screwed, turned down, pissed on, neglected and eventually murdered... because "The reason matters not"

How dare you!

H

[smc]

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

"The reason matters not" ???

That must be the most amazingly provocative thing I've heard to date here (and I've heard some major dumb things here, I tell you).

You just want to let her go away and try to cover it up in some pleasant "let it all pass" mentality! Like. "Let's make it sweet and silent..."?

She was murdered because of her transsexuality in a country that salutes itself to be an openminded democracy.

When do you people LEARN the facts of your own faschism? When do you STOP saying "The reason matters not" ?

What matters here is SO the reason. The reason that trannies are fair game in a closeminded society. A society that will even say "The reason matters not".

You BET it matters! Shame on you all! And that goes for Ila too, who conveniently wants to sweep the dishonour of the deed under a carpet.

Let us enjoy the little trannies... but let us FOR GOODNESS SAKE avoid the magnitude of shame when they get raped, fucked, screwed, turned down, pissed on, neglected and eventually murdered... because "The reason matters not"

How dare you!

H

How dare you!

You have so profoundly misrepresented what I wrote. Let's read it again:

"That said, the main point is that Amanda was murdered. MURDERED. The reason matters not, for the act is unjustifiable, and no discussion or analysis that seeks to explain it takes away that fact."

In other words, a MURDER was committed. None of the explanations of the previous posters, who seek to analyze WHY, takes away this simple fact. The specific response was to someone who put the "justification" in the context of religion. My response was that no one should be MURDERED. PERIOD. Whatever reason may be given, whether it be given as analysis or justification or rationalization, that fact does not change.

The suggestion that I meant anything REMOTELY like what you wrote, and the direct statement that I have opinions that are "fascism," are not only dead wrong, but are is an insult of epic proportions. Read any of my posts, where I have taken on every comer who denigrates or belittles or abuses our trans members, or trans people in society, and then say it again, Hank. I dare you!

You are absolutely correct that this corrupt American society, this pseudo-democracy, is a place where discrimination and even murder of those who are different is a regular occurrence. It is an abhorrent reality of this country. I could not agree more.

But you, Hank, ought to take a breath and read a bit more carefully before you start throwing around your invective against the wrong people!

[pretty_ladyboy]

i feel so sad for her as a human and as a co-shemale
now im more scared dating more men because you dont know who are the guys that can kill anybody because of anger... T_T

i wish amanda justice and i wish her killer boyfriend will go to jail as soon as possible...

i wish the government of her country will support her justice as a human, as one of there people, and regardless of her gender identity

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by smc

But you, Hank, ought to take a breath and read a bit more carefully before you start throwing around your invective against the wrong people!

Ok, I took a breath extra now :-)

The simple point that matters here (in my optics at least) is that we're not discussing the wrongs of murder in general but the insane fact that people are getting killed because of their gender identity. Because of whom they are.

I'm sorry, but that is a little different from stoned up mafia drug gangs shooting at each other over access to a street corner. Or the jealous hubby who in rage shoots his wife and lover... need I continue?

I actually had to check my dictionary for "invective" (English is not my native language) and I admit to being slightly political in my views but hardly in any way invective. Sure, I'll come after you if I find your statements outrageous.

And I did.

Like me or lump me, that's how I am. I'm not here to win a popularity contest. Besides, rest assured, that I'm not often here anymore :-) Haven't been for a long time as the general discussion is now beginning to repeat itself - and after about 900 postings, I guess I made my point.

I'm not a trans myself, but most of my friends are, and I live almost as much with their problems as they do themselves. So I know the pain and I know the fear. And guarded chitchatting gets us nowhere in a political sense. Luckily, where I have my life is less violent. But still...

So again, I'm sorry if you felt insulted, but I felt even more insulted by what I perceived as a rather simplistic way of neglecting the fact that cold blooded murder of people who just happen to be transsexual is no different from any other of the many murders you have in your country.

Every murder is unique - some just happen to be more unique than others! And killings of transsexuals are so outrageous because they touch on the basic democratic right of being whom you truly are - with your life at stake.

That's trans-reality.

So sorry for the third time to have stepped on your toes. But I'll probably do it again ;-)

Peace

H

[shadows]

Another woman has been murdered, this time in Puerto Rico. The article is from canoe.ca.

---------------------------------
---------------------------------

Police search for transgender woman?s killer

By DAVID McFADDEN, The Associated Press






SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico ? Police are searching for the killer of a transgender woman in Puerto Rico whose naked, battered body was discovered in her home last week, while activists press authorities to probe the slaying as a possible hate crime.

Ashley Santiago Ocasio, a 31-year-old beauty salon owner with high cheekbones and a flair for fashion, was shot in the head in the central mountain town of Corozal. Her car was missing and there were no signs of a break-in.

The case has grabbed headlines and renewed complaints that Puerto Rico has never invoked a 2002 hate crime law covering crimes based on sexual orientation or gender identity.

In the last five months alone, there have been five instances where the statute could have been used, said Pedro Julio Serrano, a spokesman for the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force.

?The law is very clear and we?re asking authorities to investigate without prejudice,? Serrano said.

The grisly scene at Santiago?s home raised suspicion that she may have been targeted because of her gender identity. A common characteristic of hate crime killings is excessive violence done to the victim, and there was so much blood spattered on the walls and floors that police initially believed Santiago had been stabbed repeatedly.

?Even if Ashley?s death was also a robbery, there could be the angle of hate. We need that to be investigated,? Serrano said.

Sgt. Luis R. Castro, whose homicide division in the neighboring town of Vega Baja is handling the case, said police will investigate the case as a hate crime if the evidence warrants, but they have not yet made that determination. There are no announced suspects, and an autopsy is pending.

Activists said they don?t want Santiago?s case to slip into the shadows like other recent killings where they unsuccessfully pressed authorities to invoke the statute.

In November, the body of gay teenager Jorge Steven Lopez Mercado was found decapitated and partially burned in another small town. Prosecutors say the alleged killer confessed to stabbing Lopez, who was dressed as a woman, after discovering he was a man. The suspect is facing a charge of first-degree murder, but not a hate crime.

In legal terms, the difference is a matter of punishment: A hate crime conviction results in the automatic imposition of the maximum sentence for the underlying offense. For murder aggravated by a hate crime charge, that?s life in prison in Puerto Rico.

The Santiago case has also put the often-ignored transgender community in the public spotlight in Puerto Rico.

Some local media have referred to Santiago as a ?he,? prompting activists to complain of a lack of respect for the victim.

?That?s how she lived, and her family and friends accepted her for who she was,? Serrano said, adding that Santiago had begun the process of physically becoming a woman by having breast surgery and taking female hormones.

Named Juan Antonio at birth, Santiago began identifying as a girl while a teenager, her mother said.

Carmen Ocasio told the newspaper Primera Hora she did not think Santiago had any enemies and was at a loss to explain the killing.

?I lost my daughter,? Carmen Ocasio told the paper. ?I?m in shock. Why would someone kill Ashley, why??

Dozens of sobbing mourners attended a memorial service Friday in Corozal, wearing T-shirts emblazoned with Santiago?s image.

Puerto Rico is a relatively welcoming place for gays compared with more socially conservative Caribbean islands where homosexuals often live in hiding.



Rest in peace Ashley.

[ila]

It is truly tragic when someone is murdered and even more tragic when it's due to a hate crime.

There are several statements and inferences in the article that I take exception to; among them that trans are gay. The media really need to educate themselves so that they know more about what they are reporting on.

[smc]

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

Ok, I took a breath extra now :-)

The simple point that matters here (in my optics at least) is that we're not discussing the wrongs of murder in general but the insane fact that people are getting killed because of their gender identity. Because of whom they are.

I'm sorry, but that is a little different from stoned up mafia drug gangs shooting at each other over access to a street corner. Or the jealous hubby who in rage shoots his wife and lover... need I continue?

I actually had to check my dictionary for "invective" (English is not my native language) and I admit to being slightly political in my views but hardly in any way invective. Sure, I'll come after you if I find your statements outrageous.

And I did.

Like me or lump me, that's how I am. I'm not here to win a popularity contest. Besides, rest assured, that I'm not often here anymore :-) Haven't been for a long time as the general discussion is now beginning to repeat itself - and after about 900 postings, I guess I made my point.

I'm not a trans myself, but most of my friends are, and I live almost as much with their problems as they do themselves. So I know the pain and I know the fear. And guarded chitchatting gets us nowhere in a political sense. Luckily, where I have my life is less violent. But still...

So again, I'm sorry if you felt insulted, but I felt even more insulted by what I perceived as a rather simplistic way of neglecting the fact that cold blooded murder of people who just happen to be transsexual is no different from any other of the many murders you have in your country.

Every murder is unique - some just happen to be more unique than others! And killings of transsexuals are so outrageous because they touch on the basic democratic right of being whom you truly are - with your life at stake.

That's trans-reality.

So sorry for the third time to have stepped on your toes. But I'll probably do it again ;-)

Peace

H

Hank, I guess no matter how many times you read what I wrote you are going to decide that it says what you THINK, rather than what I actually WROTE, because you've decided in advance either that you are more enlightened or better than me. You're welcome to your opinion, but not to your own facts.

This is a non-apology for going after the wrong person for the wrong thing. You should consider running for political office in the United States. You would fit right in.

[mally j]

Its so so sad hearing this
My thoughts to theirs family & friends
xx

It said Ashley?s body was battered, a classic sign of a hate crime. The article also makes reference to a previous murder, where the body of Jorge Steven Lopez Mercado was ?found decapitated and partially burned in another small town. Prosecutors say the alleged killer confessed to stabbing Lopez, who was dressed as a woman, after discovering he was a man.? This too has all the characteristics of a hate crime.

I guess that?s why I started that ?Self Defense? thread a while back. I was literally stunned at the level of violence in these murders. One thing we can do is learn to take care of ourselves and look out for each other. Another thing is to continue to make the public aware of these crimes. I would like to think that most people would never do this sort of thing. Those that do must be stopped.

My heart goes out to the victims and their families.

[smc]

I missed a couple of weeks ago that there was an arrest in Amanda's murder. Here is a link to the brief report:

http://www.365gay.com/news/man-arres...sgender-woman/

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

Shame on you all! And that goes for Ila too, who conveniently wants to sweep the dishonour of the deed under a carpet.
H

I will not debate here whether America has become more “fascist” over the last 10 years or so. That kind of in depth discussion requires, in my opinion, face to face conversation with people I know. My own views are complex and not easily expressed in a narrow medium such as an on line forum. Let’s just say I am very disappointed in the direction my country has taken since December 12, 2000.

My own posts here speak for themselves as do smc's.

However, I cannot allow my friend ila’s reputation to be tarnished or his support for the transgender community and rights of transwomen to be questioned. I cannot imagine someone who cares more or is in more pain over yet one more senseless death.

Dr. A

(Saw that smc has already responded -- well said! )

[ila]

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

.......You BET it matters! Shame on you all! And that goes for Ila too, who conveniently wants to sweep the dishonour of the deed under a carpet........

.....How dare you!

H

And how dare you try to put words in my mouth!!!! I did not ever say that the murder of a woman does not matter and I did not sweep anything under the rug. I said to quit trying to make Amanda's murder a religious and/or a political issue. Read my post again (the whole post) and this time try to understand it.

[ginger22]

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

"The reason matters not" ???

That must be the most amazingly provocative thing I've heard to date here (and I've heard some major dumb things here, I tell you).

You just want to let her go away and try to cover it up in some pleasant "let it all pass" mentality! Like. "Let's make it sweet and silent..."?

She was murdered because of her transsexuality in a country that salutes itself to be an openminded democracy.

When do you people LEARN the facts of your own faschism? When do you STOP saying "The reason matters not" ?

What matters here is SO the reason. The reason that trannies are fair game in a closeminded society. A society that will even say "The reason matters not".

You BET it matters! Shame on you all! And that goes for Ila too, who conveniently wants to sweep the dishonour of the deed under a carpet.

Let us enjoy the little trannies... but let us FOR GOODNESS SAKE avoid the magnitude of shame when they get raped, fucked, screwed, turned down, pissed on, neglected and eventually murdered... because "The reason matters not"

How dare you!

H

amen and well said. so sad and frustrating

[fatbloke]

I cannot understand what is wrong with the world,these are human beings,treated like scum.
I know i must be nieve,but surely it must be a human right to follow your own path in life.What is wrong with the human psyche that makes it so narrow minded and misunderstanding.
Every time something like this happens,it is another nail in the human races coffin.
It is time we checked out,the human race makes me sick

[smc]

Originally Posted by ginger22

amen and well said. so sad and frustrating

It is extraordinarily unfortunate that you have quoted the invective posted by HankHavelock, implying that you read only his ridiculous response to my earlier post but not the post where he essentially pulled back from his overwrought response and admitted that he hadn't read very carefully what I wrote. In doing so, you have reopened what should have been a closed, and unfortunate, forum incident of the type that happens too often ... people reading only parts of discussions and then intervening without full knowledge of what has transpired.

Originally Posted by smc

It is extraordinarily unfortunate that you have quoted the invective posted by HankHavelock, implying that you read only his ridiculous response to my earlier post but not the post where he essentially pulled back from his overwrought response and admitted that he hadn't read very carefully what I wrote. In doing so, you have reopened what should have been a closed, and unfortunate, forum incident of the type that happens too often ... people reading only parts of discussions and then intervening without full knowledge of what has transpired.

Although I share Hank’s sentiments regarding the violence faced by transwomen, unfortunately, he also takes a shot at one of my best friends on here—ila. I can imagine NO ONE who would be more heartbroken over the loss of one of our friends or wish that he could do something to stop it.

That’s what happens when one responds to an older post out of context. Thank you smc for pointing this out.