Terms Terms Terms...

[JonFrum]

I just found this thread while browsing. A few thoughts:

First, the transwoman thing. The word is commonly used by transgender m2f people - at least here in the USA - to identify themselves. There are two terms - cis and trans. Cis basically means the same, and trans means opposite. So a cis woman is a woman with both female anatomy and female self-identification - they think of them selves as women, and look like and function as women to others. A trans-woman is a person with male physical anatomy, but identifies as a woman - they know they are women inside their own heads, despite what their anatomy happens to be.

Since transwoman is a term invented by transgendered people to label themselves, they feel that it's the appropriate word to use. Those same people hate the word shemale, which was invented by non-transgendered people, and identifies them as only the objects of male lust - that's us. Use the word shemale to your typical transitioning m2f and you're liable to get your head ripped off - like calling a black person n!gger - not cool.

Transvestite was actually a technical term, invented by some researcher studying males who dressed up as females. Over the years, though, the word picked up a seedy meaning. The only time you'd see the word used would be when some "transvestite prostitute" was busted. Since transvestites usually hung out in bars on the bad side of town, where people were being mugged, drugs sold, etc. the name developed a bad reputation.

So then, some guys who dress as woman but want acceptance start meeting and talking about how to deal with wives, police etc. They are often middle class, businessmen, married and straight. The name transvestite was kind of poisoned by it's association with illicit sex and the criminal underworld, so they when for the more neutral name crossdresser. It says what they do, but it's not an invented word that people associate with perversion.

So now the crossdressers have the Tiffany Club and other national organizations with local chapters. They're mostly white, middle-class guys with wives, and they go to conventions, on cruises, support groups, all that stuff. These are guys who are trying to convince their wives to be cool with their wearing women's clothes around the house, so they need to convince them that they are totally straight, and sex has nothing to do with it. As a result, they want no part of guys who dress as women to get sexed up. If you go to the crossdressers.com forum, you'll find out that it's ruled with an iron hand. If you start posting about how hot it make you to wear women's clothes, and how you want to hook up, you'll be banned. They have a wives/girllfriends section, so they don't want their wives reading about guys having tranny parties and sucking each other's dicks.

So now, the fetish crossdressers - like me - are probably best called transvestites, because we fit better with the old image of transvestites hanging around dive bars on the waterfront. Crossdressers make a big deal about going to the mall and trying to "pass." I'd be much more interested in going to a hotel room with a couple of trannies and getting nasty.



All of the above is opinion, and does not attempt to speak for everyone everywhere. It does, however, come from experience with the groups mentioned - I'm just passing on what I've heard from others.

[DSL]

I have allways refered to them as shemales.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

Is that the song by "The Byrds"?


JohnDowe.

[ila]

Originally Posted by JonFrum

......There are two terms - cis and trans. Cis basically means the same, and trans means opposite.....

Trans comes from Latin and means across.

Originally Posted by JonFrum

Transvestite was actually a technical term, invented by some researcher studying males who dressed up as females......

Transvestite also comes from Latin; the word trans - across and the word vestire - to dress. The literal translation is crossedresser. The word was not invented by some researcher studying males who dressed up as females. It has been used in English for a good long time.

[JonFrum]

Originally Posted by ila

Trans comes from Latin and means across.



Transvestite also comes from Latin; the word trans - across and the word vestire - to dress. The literal translation is crossedresser. The word was not invented by some researcher studying males who dressed up as females. It has been used in English for a good long time.

From Wikipedia:

Magnus Hirschfeld coined the term transvestism (from Latin trans-, "across, over" and vestitus, "dressed") to refer to the sexual interest in cross-dressing.[2] He used it to describe persons who habitually and voluntarily wore clothes of the opposite sex. Hirschfeld's group of transvestites consisted of both males and females, with (physically) heterosexual, (physically) homosexual, bisexual, and asexual orientations.[3]

Also:

After all the changes which took place during the 1970s, a large group was left without a word to describe themselves: heterosexual males (that is, male-bodied, male-identified, gynephilic persons) who wear traditionally feminine clothing. This group was not particularly happy with the term transvestism. Therefore, the term cross-dresser was coined. Self-identified cross-dressers generally do not have fetishistic intentions, but are instead men who wear female clothing and often both admire and imitate women.

I didn't read the Wikipedia article before I wrote my post - it's just common knowledge stuff in the field.

[ila]

Originally Posted by JonFrum

Transvestite was actually a technical term, invented by some researcher studying males who dressed up as females.

Originally Posted by JonFrum

From Wikipedia:
Quote:
Magnus Hirschfeld coined the term transvestism (from Latin trans-, "across, over" and vestitus, "dressed") to refer to the sexual interest in cross-dressing.[2] He used it to describe persons who habitually and voluntarily wore clothes of the opposite sex. Hirschfeld's group of transvestites consisted of both males and females, with (physically) heterosexual, (physically) homosexual, bisexual, and asexual orientations.[3]

I didn't read the Wikipedia article before I wrote my post - it's just common knowledge stuff in the field.

The two examples below will show that the word transvestite has been around long before you claim it was.

The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary, Volume II Oxford University Press 1987
Transvest, v, [L. Trans + L. Vestire to clothe] To clothe in other garment, e.g. those of the opposite sex
1652 J.Wright tr. Canus’ Nat Paradox 1L. 42 How often did shee please her fancy with the imagination of transvesting herself, and by the help of a Man’s disguise deceiving the eyes, of those that watched her deportments

The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary, Volume III, Oxford University Press 1987
Transvestite, [L. Trans + L. Vestire to clothe] A person with an abnormal desire to wear the clothes of the opposite sex
1922 J. van Teslaar tr. Stekel’s Bisexual Love ii. 69 Among the transvestites (personifiers) we find the most pronounced examples of marked homosexuality and stressed bi-sexuality

[Mel Asher]

Yes, I agree that this question of Porn-driven opinions versus Personal Witness needs plenty of Thread time, and has indeed been the subject of many posts. I don't think the majority of hormone-driven males who enjoy T-porn can possibly imagine the pain and endurance needed for anyone who has ' misplaced sexuality ' - let alone the courage required ( and the money, as Bionca so sharply reminded us ) and the endurance to cope with the process and social aftermath of Transgendering. I include here F2m's although socially they attract a lot less attention. It is not to be wondered at that M2fs, whether they proceed to complete Transition or not, become obsessively preoccupied with their condition and acquire a burden of resentment and sometimes paranoia. By comparison the semantics of market T-porn must seem trivial to say the least.

But I don't think the average male means to be insensitive in his use of teminology when it comes to seeking out or referring to Transexual Porn. It is just that that they don't appreciate how highly sensitised M2fs can become to their casual use of terminology. And, after all, I guess that average means me, too, as indeed quite it must a lot of us who share in the pleasures and discussions of this Forum.

to all.

Before I joined this forum I would have used the term “transgendered” to refer to what many people call “tgirls” or “shemales.” From a casual browsing of web sites, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that the term “shemale” is connected with the porn industry and probably despised by most transgendered individuals. Likewise the term “tranny” sounds derogatory. I won’t use either one. I don’t like the term “ladyboy” either but I understand that it refers to a certain group of transwomen from Asia who use the term themselves.

Ila, who I respect a great deal, often uses the term “transwomen.” Since joining, I have started to use this term in place of “transgendered.” I occasionally use the term “tgirl” as I believed that this was considered acceptable. Personally, I would rather just use “girl” or “woman.”

[randolph]

Originally Posted by Mel Asher

Yes, I agree that this question of Porn-driven opinions versus Personal Witness needs plenty of Thread time, and has indeed been the subject of many posts. I don't think the majority of hormone-driven males who enjoy T-porn can possibly imagine the pain and endurance needed for anyone who has ' misplaced sexuality ' - let alone the courage required ( and the money, as Bionca so sharply reminded us ) and the endurance to cope with the process and social aftermath of Transgendering. I include here F2m's although socially they attract a lot less attention. It is not to be wondered at that M2fs, whether they proceed to complete Transition or not, become obsessively preoccupied with their condition and acquire a burden of resentment and sometimes paranoia. By comparison the semantics of market T-porn must seem trivial to say the least.

But I don't think the average male means to be insensitive in his use of teminology when it comes to seeking out or referring to Transexual Porn. It is just that that they don't appreciate how highly sensitised M2fs can become to their casual use of terminology. And, after all, I guess that average means me, too, as indeed quite it must a lot of us who share in the pleasures and discussions of this Forum.

to all.

Mel, this is a very good comment.
There is a mix of emotions and sensitivities here and perhaps they can be discussed without hurting anyone's feelings.
First, the Transladyboy site is a porn site with financial support from a sex cam site. It is designed to encourage participation in cam porn (which is very expensive).
Second, the site forum provides the opportunity for anyone to share comments, sexy stories and erotic images of transsexuals / shemales.
Third, the forum allows anyone to share their experiences with transsexual partners.
Transsexualism is a strange phenomenon. Why do males that have loved females for years become converted to lusting after shemales. Also, some males are interested in a loving relationship and possibly marriage with a transsexual. There are obvious limitations to this relationship. A transsexual partner is unable to bear children.
OK, is there a difference between transsexuals and shemales? I would suggest that shemales are a subset of transsexuals. Transvestites on the other hand are separate from transsexuals in that they are males that enjoy dressing up as females but remain essentially males. Transsexuals believe they were born with the wrong body, their mind tells them that they are female. Shemales, although they often "look" very female and retain the male capability to have an erection and possibly ejaculation of semen. In a sense they are a hybrid. Also, shemales often participate in the sex trade as models, escorts or prostitutes.
It seems, for the most part, male participants in this forum are interested in looking at shemale images and fantasizing about having sex with the shemale portrayed. Since these fantasies are highly sexual, the verbal expressions are often crude and objectify the shemale as a sex performer and nothing more.
Now this forum is unusual in that we have transsexuals actually participating, with comments. Their comments about the "reality" of being transsexual are very enlightening. However, they challenge the sexual fantasies encouraged by shemale porn on the site. The accounts by Bionca, Fran, Pixie, Jen and others testify to the difficulties of being transsexual. I believe most of the participants here have the utmost respect for the transsexual women trying to make their way in this rather hostile environment.
I know these comments are simplistic, so perhaps they can be discussed further.

[JonFrum]

Originally Posted by ila

The two examples below will show that the word transvestite has been around long before you claim it was.

Your first example shows that someone, somewhere in the English-speaking world, combined the two Latin roots - in a different form than currently used. That doesn't mean that the word was picked up and actually used in practice. The OED is full of orphan citations like it - it's understood that they're doing linguistic archeology - not listing the beginning of regular practice.

Hirchfield - whom I cited above - predates your second citation. His book was published in 1910.

Hirschfeld, M. (1910/1991). Transvestites: The erotic drive to cross dress.([M. A. Lombardi-Nash, Trans.) Buffalo, NY: Prometheus Books.

Can you cite some references from 19th Century literature? Actually, I doubt you'll find it used outside the medical literature much before 1950.