Posting Of Pay Site Images - All Read.

[Jenae LaTorque]

I am a bit affronted by your tone. You use the word "grabbed" instead of "downloaded" which implies I took them like some kind of thief. No I did not grab them; I downloaded pics that were freely offered. There are hundreds of web sites out there with links to gallery pages. Once you go to these pages, you are then free in most cases to download the pics there. Kinda like a free samples page from the producer who is hoping you will go their pay site and join. To this end, there is advertising and a link provided.

Example - I go to one of my favorites: http://www.maxshemales.com/main.shtml. There I find numerous links to other free hosting gallery pages along with many pages of samples. I pick out one I wish to look at and go there; in this case it is http://galleries.hotwendywilliams.com/gallery/t=british/s=47lisa/i=1834419 which is one of yours. Since she is acceptable, I download the pics. And I am done there. Nowhere do I see a claim of copyright which forbids the further dissemination of the pics. The closest thing is that each pic has a small logo on it which says Hot Wendy Productions on it.

Now are you trying to tell me that none of your income is derived from the benefits of this process. Are you saying that you don't have new paying members join as a result of these free pics? Of course not. Whether I join or not is irrelevant, many do. And we will not even get into the subject of cookies, trojans, malware, etc that are foisted onto site visitors without their knowledge. Not saying your sites do this, but many sites do. As you well know, this forum has a rule limiting the number of pics and asks members to identify the site they came from. That is sufficient. And fair.

For you to come on here and plead for a lower limit is ridiculous. I say if you don't like, it then limit your distributed free pics to 3 per shoot. That would be a surefire way to ensure your aim here. I seriously doubt you are willing to do this in the competative market you are in. I also doubt whether the amount of sharing here affects your business all that much, in fact I would guess it is microscopic in figures.

Final words:

"I think you are barking up the wrong tree"

and

"Why buy the cow when you are happy with the free milk."

P.S. While I was composing this, I see other posts have been made. I will agree with you that the posting of material by members who have joined your sites and then proceed to post what I assume is copywrited and restricted material is ethically wrong. I would also agree that you have the right to try and stop these actions. I suggest you concentrate you efforts at your own sites. Perhaps you could encode information in the digital information of each pic that would allow you to identify the culprits; or would that be too cost prohibitive?

[seanchai]

Jenae
Whether you like my tone or not is irrelevant.
Let me explain to you as your obviously unaware of intellectual copyright law so you may better understand it and won't have to appear so ignorant in arguing against it.

The sample you gave:
http://galleries.hotwendywilliams.co...lisa/i=1834419

All those photos belong to Wendy Williams. She has produced these galleries for her affiliates to make sales to her sites. Nobody has permission to steal those images, from her server and post them elsewhere. It's theft and any host that puts those images up, can be punishable by law. Most companies affiliate programs have strict Terms and Conditions on the usage of material.

This content is NOT free. You can watch an advertisement on TV which based on your argument is "free" but you cannot take the content of that advertisement and use it to your own purposes.

There does not have to be a copyright statement on a page. Wendy holds the intellectual copyright to that content.

I don't care what YOU think is sufficient and fair. I'm asking for people to respect producers copyright, including our own and show a fair amount of images. YOU are technically breaking the law if you upload content that doesn't belong to you.

I respect your opinions if you don't think this would make a difference to our business but I've been very successful in this business for over 12 years and in my opinion, it does make a difference and that's what I'm asking for the help of the board. More aggressive companies or companies who aren't part of the tgirl culture may simply DMCA the owners of this board and demand that all content must be removed - and the owners, legally, would be forced to oblige.

If you don't like that, then just don't post anything.

[rockabilly]

I think the 3 pic rule is reasonable. If you like a certain girl and want to post pics to help promote her then just do three from one set then three from another to show variety. The more exposure she gets then the more fans and members will join pay sites. Just use the rule of three.

I must say Wendy is very pretty

[violet lightning]

Seanchai,
I read your post, and while I can understand and appreciate your basic statement, I do think you are possibly being a little unrealistic and you definitely sound a little snarkey and rude to other members of this forum who like you, are just trying to voice their opinion and perhaps engage in some dialog with you on this subject.
Are you saying that by law no one should be to allowed to repost any material from any of your sites?

I have been a paying member of some of your sites, and I have never posted any full set (or even much content-there are so many other sites out there). Most of us just post our favorite pics from each set or girl.
But I am confused a little. I see dozens of promo free sets on all kinds of freebie sites(each with up to 10 or more pics) that change daily, and I assume that those are free for anyone to download. Are those free pages done without your permission? If not, do you expect people to just download the same 3 pics only from a free page of 10 or more pics? Thats absurd. Why even have teaser or free pages at all? (because, I suspect, that its good for your business)

Like our posts, the preview pages aren't the full sets, just teasers. If you want the really good pics, you need to join, (as many do). In a forum like this, eventually people can post enough pics from various sources, that maybe eventually there is almost a complete set, but this is pretty rare and happens with only the most popular girls.
I agree people should not post entire sets from the actual pay sites, but almost everyone here just posts freebies, or pics they have had for years.

I don't see any possible way you could limit any given set to 3 pics unless thats all you ever released on the free sites, and encoded any on the pay site so they could not be reposted. (you would also have to oversee what/who/how many pics get posted here and on every other forum)
("Porn Czar"?) or as you said, shut down every site that offends you.

Also, isn't it similar to TV/movie copyright? That is, I can tape anything I want on TV, radio, etc.for my own use, but I cannot re-sell it or rebroadcast it for profit. (that is , its OK for private use)
Isn't that similar to what we are doing? We are just posting pictures that we have for others enjoyment, and the site is free. Its also not exactly a major site. It took me years, and I just happened to stumble on this forum.
(so in the major scheme of things, is this site really taking away business from your sites, or is it all forums like this in their totallity?)
And are you posting this message on their forums as well?

(I do understand your "Why buy the cow, when you can get the milk for free" argument)...but
another phrase which comes to mind is "Your trying to close the barn door after the cow has escaped".

I would hate to see it happen, but it almost sounds like you would have to make it to where no pic can be downloaded unless you bought it. No freebies, only pages where you can see the pic, but could only download it/them if you became a member. (isn't that how some of the early sites worked?...or maybe didn't work..)

Perhaps you could try going after the main offenders who are posting complete sets or videos. Most of us here are respectful of the rules and appreciate what business people like yourself are trying to do. I support your sites, your intellectual rights, and your right to voice your concerns.
I hope you can appreciate what we are doing (and not doing) here as well.

[seanchai]

Hi Violet,
Some excellent questions there and I'll try to answer them in turn, so the information is easier to decimate, rather than from one long post.

Unrealistic, maybe but we (TS producers) have had a number of initiatives for the past year aimed at piracy and over saturation of our content that has worked, and better to be unrealistic and try to do something about it, rather than not at all, while our business erodes. I wouldn't need to be "snarkey" to other members of this forum, if they didn't feel the need to be rude and insulting to me, showing ignorance without the facts, so it's a bit give and take.

Originally Posted by violet lightning

Are you saying that by law no one should be to allowed to repost any material from any of your sites?

Correct. By law, one persons copyright cannot be re-posted or reused. This is why you see many mainstream companies taking exception with companies like Youtube. Of course, the internet is still fairly new and technology is changing but look at the legal requirements to post something on Wikipedia and you'll get a rough idea of the true legal requirements.

Originally Posted by violet lightning

I have been a paying member of some of your sites, and I have never posted any full set (or even much content-there are so many other sites out there). Most of us just post our favorite pics from each set or girl.

Thank you. I wish everybody had that same level of respect and commitment but they just don't, which is why we've got to spend time and money monitoring usage of our content.

Originally Posted by violet lightning

But I am confused a little. I see dozens of promo free sets on all kinds of freebie sites(each with up to 10 or more pics) that change daily, and I assume that those are free for anyone to download. Are those free pages done without your permission? If not, do you expect people to just download the same 3 pics only from a free page of 10 or more pics? Thats absurd.

Free to download and use for your own purposes is fine. Free to upload them to any other server, use them for your own purposes is not. We're talking about two very different things. I assume your talking about what's called "FHG's" (Free Hosted Galleries) - see some examples below:

http://galleries.grooby.com/nats/092...6NQ,0,0,0,1611
http://galleries.grooby.com/nats/yum...6NQ,0,0,0,1583

These are content given by site owners to their affiliates to promote their website. The general consensus by most site is it's ok if you use this content to post, providing that it's not been resized and there is a link to the website or company it was taken from. This would be acceptable on the 15 image rule. However, what people have been doing is posting 15 images from the members areas and not the 12-15 images posted for promotion, they've also been posting multiple posts, of 15 images each.

Originally Posted by violet lightning

Like our posts, the preview pages aren't the full sets, just teasers. If you want the really good pics, you need to join, (as many do). In a forum like this, eventually people can post enough pics from various sources, that maybe eventually there is almost a complete set, but this is pretty rare and happens with only the most popular girls.
I agree people should not post entire sets from the actual pay sites, but almost everyone here just posts freebies, or pics they have had for years.

Again, if it's the content the site has given for promotional purposes, then that's fine. If it's content stolen from other places (regardless of if you found it in a free place, that's not an affiliate of the company ... then it's stolen). The poster is responsible for what they post. ALL CONTENT remains the intellectual property of the individual company.

Originally Posted by violet lightning

I don't see any possible way you could limit any given set to 3 pics unless thats all you ever released on the free sites, and encoded any on the pay site so they could not be reposted. (you would also have to oversee what/who/how many pics get posted here and on every other forum)
("Porn Czar"?) or as you said, shut down every site that offends you.

We close down multiple sites on a weekly basis.

Originally Posted by violet lightning

Also, isn't it similar to TV/movie copyright? That is, I can tape anything I want on TV, radio, etc.for my own use, but I cannot re-sell it or rebroadcast it for profit. (that is , its OK for private use)

Correct and a perfect analogy and my point exactly. What people are doing here is rebroadcasting it. Profit has nothing to do with it.

Originally Posted by violet lightning

Isn't that similar to what we are doing? We are just posting pictures that we have for others enjoyment, and the site is free. Its also not exactly a major site. It took me years, and I just happened to stumble on this forum.
(so in the major scheme of things, is this site really taking away business from your sites, or is it all forums like this in their totallity?)

Many small sites showing multiple images add up to a lot of content that people can get for free. This is stolen from our sites and inhibits the production of new material. This is nothing new, these rules have been in place for 10 yrs.

Originally Posted by violet lightning

And are you posting this message on their forums as well?

Yes, or I have the moderator status to simply delete their posts. I wanted to request that the users of this forum, respect our rights without having to take it any further. It is a very few members who post massive amounts and I've contacted some personally in the past, which are usually ignored.

Originally Posted by violet lightning

(I do understand your "Why buy the cow, when you can get the milk for free" argument)...but
another phrase which comes to mind is "Your trying to close the barn door after the cow has escaped".

Pointless really trying to respond to that. We're a business, if someone has shoplifted before, it doesn't mean you don't stop the next one.

Originally Posted by violet lightning

I would hate to see it happen, but it almost sounds like you would have to make it to where no pic can be downloaded unless you bought it. No freebies, only pages where you can see the pic, but could only download it/them if you became a member. (isn't that how some of the early sites worked?...or maybe didn't work..)

I'd welcome that. The only content that would be released would be the previews we wanted to release. Why see the movie if you've seen 15 different trailers showing the whole movie for free?
I expect that will be the way the internet will go (and it's already happening) which is why you should support independent companies like the ones listed here.

Originally Posted by violet lightning

Perhaps you could try going after the main offenders who are posting complete sets or videos. Most of us here are respectful of the rules and appreciate what business people like yourself are trying to do. I support your sites, your intellectual rights, and your right to voice your concerns.
I hope you can appreciate what we are doing (and not doing) here as well.

Most people are respecting it, a few aren't. My message was to everyone, with an explanation why it has to be like this. As I previously stated, I'm first and foremost a fan and if I wasn't in the business, I'd be an active member here, I just don't have the time.
We produce more content than any other one company and work with 100's of models a year, worldwide. I don't want to reduce the productions, that would hurt us all.

Thanks again for a good dialogue and I hope this has answered some of your questions.

[Jenae LaTorque]

The quote is from the character "Frenchy" in The Cotton Club movie.


So I did some research on copyrights, and I believe I now have a better grasp of the situation. Technically you are pretty much right, concerning the issue of copyright infringement, but I still think you are "barking up the wrong tree."


There are still a lot of "grey" areas in the matter of copyright infringement over the internet. You have several problems with your case:


1. Your Subject Matter - Your area is pornography, and to make matters worse, it is transgender porn which is even more repugnant to a large segment of the public. True, this should not matter in terms of the application of the law, but you know, as we all do, that justice is oftentimes not served when it comes to T-people. I don't expect that you will find a lot of sympathy out there for your plight. You will find more here as long as you are civil.


2. Proving Your Case - I can see where you may have a hard time proving damages here when you already have a multitude of porn images elsewhere availible on the internet for down loading free of charge. When it comes down to the numbers, the number of downloads here will be dwarved by the daily number of downloads at the original page. You will also need to prove that a significant number would have joined your site if they were unable to download the pics here.

As part of researching this subject I had to check out the Harley thread since I am not a fan of hers. And, I found that there are not really that many pics there. I am going to assume that there were a lot of them since you are bitchin' about it. That leads me to the conclusion that you have already coerced the site authorities into removing a great many of the disputed pics. If you did this solely on your own as a moderator, I suggest that there may be a "conflict of interest here." This would be further evidenced by the fact that I am aware of several threads where there are sets represented by many more pics than the 15 pic limit, and they have not been pruned or removed entirely.


3. The Question of Who is Liable - You suggested or threatened that you could hold us, the members of the forum, responsible for the copyright infringement. You know, or your lawyers should know, that this would be a very difficult road to follow since we are not the owners of the site. Now there are a whole lot of legal issues concerning that..... so, I won't go into that since you have lawyers for that. Suffice it to say, that most forum members have stayed within the requirements of the forum rules. You may have a case against members who posted pictures that they obtained as a member of your sites, but I think your case against those of us who simply posted pictures that are freely available is very weak at best, almost nil in fact.

:D Now I have a question here. By posting on here, did you solicit our opinions, and are you thus obligated to compensate me for my advice if you use it in any way to form your legal position. If you feel so, I would accept a free membership to the SM Club site

[ladyboyadmirer]

Hello Seanchai, Jenae, Violet lightning and fellow members,
I think I was the second to read the post from Seanchai and I already thought....this is going to cause a lot of discussion.
Firstly, I think you guys are being a little unfair to Seanchai. His initial post was polite and certainly not flexing the usual muscles that other site owners do with threatening legal action to the forum and its members and this ridiculous FBI crap statement ( Im sure the FBI have other things on their minds) ...it was merely a request stating his concerns and I think words like snarkey, rude, feeling affronted etc., uncalled for. Hey people, isn't this what a forum is for? Seanchai has the right to voice his opinions and of course his 'tone' is going to match the replies. Im sure none of us want to ruin the good work done by Grooby and indeed any other producer, so it would be in all our interests to settle this in a amicable manner. I think only sensible dialogue will bring a solution without any animosity. I see that you are all educated people, so a slanging match would be somewhat out of place.
Im surprised that the moderators here have not made a comment regarding this topic...after all, the fact that the post is in the 'sticky' section, proves it's of a legitimate nature...so lets hear your views from above please.

PS. Just for the record Jenae and Violet lightning, Im on your side but 'lest we forget'...without the pioneers like Seanchai, this forum wouldn't exist and we would all be still just dreaming of tgirls like before the internet era.
Regards to all Lba

[seanchai]

Hi Jenae
I'm not going to get into a long and lengthy debate about copyright laws. I don't want to go that route, I know my rights and the rights of all producers which is why their is a DMCA law and why servers, site owners and ISP's are so strict about. What you "think" is the law is frankly and with due respect, irrelevant as is your "grey areas".

I'll answer a couple of your more pertinent points but please read the post in response to Violet above this

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque
1. [B

Your Subject Matter[/B] - Your area is pornography, and to make matters worse, it is transgender porn which is even more repugnant to a large segment of the public.

Barely needs response. This is absolutely rubbish and irrelevant. Copyright is copyright. We work within the boundaries of the law and have regsitered at copyright offices, our names are Trademarked. Your point makes no legal sense at all.

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

Proving Your Case - I can see where you may have a hard time proving damages here when you already have a multitude of porn images elsewhere availible on the internet for down loading free of charge. When it comes down to the numbers, the number of downloads here will be dwarved by the daily number of downloads at the original page. You will also need to prove that a significant number would have joined your site if they were unable to download the pics here.

Again, complete wrong and irrelevant. Copyright infringement is just that and each image that has been infringed is copyrighted. We wouldn't have to prove anything, having the screen capture is simply enough. For sites like this, (user uploaded) the DMCA Safe Harbour law protects them (for the time being) as long as the owner removes the content within a set time, upon notification from the copyright holder. Failure to do so, or if it was found that the owner uploaded the content themselves, would be an infringement.

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

As part of researching this subject I had to check out the Harley thread since I am not a fan of hers. And, I found that there are not really that many pics there. I am going to assume that there were a lot of them since you are bitchin' about it. That leads me to the conclusion that you have already coerced the site authorities into removing a great many of the disputed pics. If you did this solely on your own as a moderator, I suggest that there may be a "conflict of interest here." This would be further evidenced by the fact that I am aware of several threads where there are sets represented by many more pics than the 15 pic limit, and they have not been pruned or removed entirely

Correct, full sets of Harley were removed, 40+ images from Khloe Hart (per set), links to stolen content sites with full videos.
There is no conflict of interest, we both want to provide this site with good legal content, to generate discussion and fan base. The site owners and myself, would like people to join the sites, which in turn, keeps us able to produce content and the owners to pay the server fees in keeping this running.

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

You suggested or threatened that you could hold us, the members of the forum, responsible for the copyright infringement. You know, or your lawyers should know, that this would be a very difficult road to follow since we are not the owners of the site. Now there are a whole lot of legal issues concerning that..... so, I won't go into that since you have lawyers for that.

Come on, it's not going to get to that point. A free site owner would kick the offending people or close the site before getting lawyers involved and it's not something I would ever want to do. However, for clarification purposes, the site's rules are also irrelevant. I could point you to sites whose rules are that you can only show full Hollywood movies, in HD for free ... and that's illegal! Technically, we could go after any 1 person posting our content, request their IP and information from the server ... blah ... blah ... blah but I'd much rather produce porn.

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

:D Now I have a question here. By posting on here, did you solicit our opinions, and are you thus obligated to compensate me for my advice if you use it in any way to form your legal position. If you feel so, I would accept a free membership to the SM Club site

Frankly, I had no interest in your opinion on this matter legally. The copyright laws are set. I'm not the owner of Shemale Club as much as I'd like to be. Apart from the top 10 links on that list, all the other companies are part of a group of producers with whom we work with on initiatives like this. I did put the wrong link up, their actual link is : http://shemaleclub.com/ and well worth investing a months membership on.

I do however, welcome an open dialogue. Legal issues are not really opening to question, take them up with your politicians.

Thanks

[ladyboyadmirer]

That reply must have taken you ages to compile Seanchai, some interesting facts there...thanks for your time

[seanchai]

Originally Posted by ladyboyadmirer

That reply must have taken you ages to compile Seanchai, some interesting facts there...thanks for your time

It's not the first time I've answered the same questions.
Thanks

[Excaliborg]

seanchai you sound very much like the RIAA who blame the end users of a product for the loss of business. consider this, i can do a google search right now for just about anything and i can guarentee you i will find what i am looking for without having to pay. whose fault is that? mine or yours? as a provider of a specific kind of content it is upon YOU to secure you data or IP(Interllectual Properrty) or whatever you want to call it. dont go after us poor plebs. go after the saucy knaves who are stealing your IP. it is not my fault that more that more than three pics of any given galllery is available on the internet. it is YOUR responsibility to ensure what is available to us poor plebs.

sure you can enforce a three pic rule on your own site via tours. as Jenae LaTorque said(i think), we help to promote your paysites.

now as to copyright. you have to PROVE what the INTENTION is. not what i'm actually doing. read them laws again. just because im searching for pics of shemales or tgirls (reminds me of a thread in the Shemale Chat section, they are women not just objects of sexual desire) does not mean im going to your site with the purpose of stealimg. i want to jack off to something that i find appealing. so im going to go where the freely availabel content is, not to a forum that only allows three pics of any given set.

so it comes down to this. if you want to protect your content, only make three examples available per set availanle to the public. do not have teaser sets of nine, twelve or fifteen examples available. once again the onus is upon YOU to protect your content. not me, not Jenae LaTorque or any other member of this forum.

to quote you "...Legal issues are not really opening to question, take them up with your politicians." why involve politicians? this is not a polical matter. secure your IP, make your data is protected. dont make us the scapegoat.

violet lightning and Jenae LaTorque(she has such nawty eyes)

[violet lightning]

Thanks for answering all my questions seanchai. It all sounds reasonable, and it seems like your really after a few major offenders who don't respect the money and effort that goes into actually producing original material and maintaining websites.

I hope you don't mind a few more thoughts/questions/observations as this seems like a good opportunity to learn more.
Are you a moderator or owner of this site? Is this forum connected in some way to commercial sites, or was it established for members to enjoy and share pics, etc?
Is there a legal precedent for forums like this to exist?

Also, an example of an earlier point: I visited a site earlier today,(juicyshemales.com) that is a freebie-link page, and there were two different sets of Carla Novais from shemaleclub that had 20 pics each. (thats 40 free pics from just two sets on a page with hundreds of free sets--and they change daily!) Multiply that by the hundreds of other freebie pages and your talking thousands of free pics daily. Does releasing so many free photos hurt yours (and others) business much? How do you differentiate between the free pics and the ones that are on the pay-site?
It also seems like the free pics are so good, you would have just as many people being satisfied with those as being tempted to join. (I would assume this is not the case or you wouldn't be doing it)

Does any problem arise when free sites like this begin getting "too good"?
(The content is excellent, traffic goes up, the word gets out and perhaps people start wondering if we are cutting into their business....?)

Are you generally ok with this site and others like it as long as they don't post whole sets or proprietary material?

I won't belabor the point. These are just a few thoughts and questions. As I said, I get where you are coming from, and I believe your concerns are legitimate. I just hope you can solve the problems without becoming too draconian.
I enjoy your sites as well as others, but I enjoy this site very much too.

(Note-in the time it took to compose this, you answered or addressed some of my questions already in other posts, so forgive some of the points)
It sounds like you are ok with this site and members, as long as we follow some basic rules...and that seems reasonable enough to me.
Now you just have to convince everyone else!