Ask Jenae for real answers - no games.

[Jenae LaTorque]

I thought that you as atheist (not agnostic or theist), would be more critical to such theories. - Tread

The fact is that I do folow the recomendation given by John Trapp
in his Commentary on the Old and New Testaments, 1647:

"This is to be taken with a grain of salt."

But on the other hand I try to be receptive to the idea that there may be a kernel of truth in old legands, myths, religions, folk remedies, etc.... I do not say "where there is smoke, there is fire." Rather I say "where there is smoke, there may be fire."

Please note that I was neither advocating that Ormus had any value or even any legitimacy; nor was I saying that it was pure baloney. I was just throwing possibilities into the wind to see what they might yield. I too have a great deal of skepticism regarding the whole Orme story and the vendors of white powder of gold (ORMUS). And yes, it seems to me that if there was anything much to it; we would be hearing more from the scientific world on the subject.

There have always been charletans who come up with all kinds of "miracle cures and treatments" involving little understood aspects of science. Witness all the treatments involving use of electricity that were so prevalent in the early part of the last century. Many of these were even endorsed by the medical establishment of the time. Of course most of these were later proved to be hogwash, but today there are approved uses of electricity in the medical field, notably for pain supression. And how many people are alive today due to electrical shocks to restart an arrested heart.

The point is that until more evidence is in I'll just say MAYBE.

"Maybe so, maybe not"

[sesame]

Originally Posted by me

The sun is the source of all our energy

Quite so! The earth is a piece of the Sun! We belong to the Solar family, remember? Furthermore, can you eat, breathe, drink water, get sunlight, burn patrol and firewood without the sun? NO, you cant!

Food: ultimate source= Plants ---> Photosynthesis--->Sun

Oxygen: same as above

Water: Rain and snow--->Icecap--->Rivers--->oceans--->evaporation--->sun

Patrol wood bioenergy: Plants--->Photosynthesis--->sun

[Jenae LaTorque]

Originally Posted by sesame

Quite so! The earth is a piece of the Sun! We belong to the Solar family, remember? Furthermore, can you eat, breathe, drink water, get sunlight, burn patrol and firewood without the sun? NO, you cant!

1 Food: ultimate source= Plants ---> Photosynthesis--->Sun

2 Oxygen: same as above

3 Water: Rain and snow--->Icecap--->Rivers--->oceans--->evaporation--->sun

4 Patrol wood bioenergy: Plants--->Photosynthesis--->sun

__________________________________________________ _________________

I can see you didn't head the class in the area of science. "The Earth is a piece of the sun." The sun and the earth had a common origin, as I said above, in the consolidation process. NO! The earth did not come from the star we call the Sun. By the time the proto star had compressed enough to begin the fusion process and then be considered a star, the earth had already assumed most of it's planetary mass and orbit.

You also talk about water in relation to energy. I suppose you think water came from the sun also? No!, most of the water on Earth is believed to have come from comets.

You mention petroleum, at least I guess that is what you meant by "patrol". Yes, most of the science world believes that petroleum comes originally from plants and animals. However, there are dissenting view on this from some.

http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/Energy.html

You seem to think that by stressing accepted scientific facts that you are proving something. Your whole argument fails because the earth did not come from the sun; instead, they had a common origin. Just the same as you did not come from your sisters and brothers; rather you share a common origin.

[sesame]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

__________________________________________________ _________________

I can see you didn't head the class in the area of science. "The Earth is a piece of the sun." The sun and the earth had a common origin, as I said above, in the consolidation process. NO! The earth did not come from the star we call the Sun. By the time the proto star had compressed enough to begin the fusion process and then be considered a star, the earth had already assumed most of it's planetary mass and orbit.

You also talk about water in relation to energy. I suppose you think water came from the sun also? No!, most of the water on Earth is believed to have come from comets.

You mention petroleum, at least I guess that is what you meant by "patrol". Yes, most of the science world believes that petroleum comes originally from plants and animals. However, there are dissenting view on this from some.

Well sister Jenae, if a person thinks that petroleum or coal came from any other source than plants and animals, he is a moron!

I didnt say that water came from the sun, I merely referred to the H2O cycle of evaporation and rainfall. The energy behind that cycle is sunlight and heat. You must should have paid more attention in the geography and biology classes, instead of making origami, hiding in the last bench!

If there was no sunlight, all life on earth would perish due to starvation and cold.(may be some anaerobic bacteria and virus may go on living...) All the food we eat, has its source in the plants. No sun, no plants, no food, understand, little sister?

Where do you think all this oxygen in the air we breath came from? The plants photosynthesized and filled the atmosphere with oxygen. Before that, the air contained all the other gases, but no oxygen. Again, dear, no sun, no oxygen to breath. There was oxygen on earth, trapped in compounds, but not in the free molecular state that we inhale.

And about the origin of the earth, scientists are of many opinions. You are stressing on only one of them.

Your whole argument fails because the earth did not come from the sun;

Even if the earth and sun are brothers, for arguments sake, my other points stick, they dont fail. Your Logic is horrible!

Take special classes in Geography, biology and logic; it might help you and change your life!

[sesame]

Do we, each of us possess an indestructible soul, that is born again and again in different bodies after each death?

[Jenae LaTorque]

Originally Posted by sesame

Do we, each of us possess an indestructible soul, that is born again and again in different bodies after each death?

I would like to believe so. It would seem to be a more equitable way for one's soul to progress towards a higher state of being. It is obvious that some people have a much easier path to be a good person than others whose path is strewn with obstacles. What chance does a child who is born of a drug addict mother and an alchoholic incestuopus pedophile father to grow into a person of high morals and behavior. One hell of a lesser chance than a child who is born of and raised by 2 good parents who teach love and compassion by their examples of behavior. It makes a nice picture that each soul would be able to experiance many opportunies through many lives to progress and eventually would reach a state of Nirvana and beyond.

But do I believe so? The answer is NO!

If you want to know why, ask me.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by sesame

Do we, each of us possess an indestructible soul, that is born again and again in different bodies after each death?

No. Time for humanity to let this fairytale go.

[Tread]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

But on the other hand I try to be receptive to the idea that there may be a kernel of truth in old legands, myths, religions, folk remedies, etc.... I do not say "where there is smoke, there is fire." Rather I say "where there is smoke, there may be fire."

Wouldn't this make you more an agnostic, than an atheist?

[randolph]

Science is primarily dealing with quantitative aspects of reality. The ability to measure and collect data are the essence of science. The qualitative aspects of reality are not easily measured. This is the realm of philosophy, myth and religion. How do we measure a dream or a thought? They are real as far as our mind is concerned. The Indian mystics recognized this and spent a lot of time meditating on the mind's relationship to reality. Amazingly, they comprehended many aspects of reality, such as the age of the earth and the big bang thousands of years ago. Without science, how did they do this? The mind is composed of the same elements as the stars, add some energy, billions of years of evolution and viola comprehension becomes part of the universe.

[Jenae LaTorque]

[quote=randolph;101469], they comprehended many aspects of reality, such as the age of the earth and the big bang thousands of years ago. Without science, how did they do this?
____________________________________________

Somebody told them. I refer you to the Library of Halexandria which google will lead you to. Read their version of the history of the world. While I don't think they have all of the answer, I do think that they sound a hell of a lot more credible than the biblical history which any student of history knows is a mishmash of legend, myth, and wishful thinking.

[sesame]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorK

But do I believe so? (reincarnation) The answer is NO!
If you want to know why, ask me.

WHY?

Originally Posted by Jenae

eventually would reach a state of Nirvana and beyond.

What is beyond Nirvana?

[sesame]

Originally Posted by randolph

The Indian mystics recognized this and spent a lot of time meditating on the mind's relationship to reality. Amazingly, they comprehended many aspects of reality, such as the age of the earth and the big bang thousands of years ago. Without science, how did they do this? The mind is composed of the same elements as the stars, add some energy, billions of years of evolution and viola comprehension becomes part of the universe.

Good post!

TraiLokye Yani Bhutani,
Tani Sarvani Dehatah.
~Yoga Shastras. (sanskrit)

Meaning: Whatever is contained in the Universe, is already there inside the human body. Whatever happens in the Macrocosm, can be known by knowing the Kundalini trapped inside the Microcosm. The Nine chakras resemble the external Universe.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by sesame

Good post!

TraiLokye Yani Bhutani,
Tani Sarvani Dehatah.
~Yoga Shastras. (sanskrit)

Meaning: Whatever is contained in the Universe, is already there inside the human body. Whatever happens in the Macrocosm, can be known by knowing the Kundalini trapped inside the Microcosm. The Nine chakras resemble the external Universe.

I don't believe in reincarnation, however, as I have mentioned before, the mind goes beyond quantitative science, it is qualitative. Discovering ones kundalini latent energy will confirm this. Transcending the ego and becoming aware of ones inner female energy is "enlightment". She is often called Uma Parvati the inner goddess, the soul. I worship her, she is the ultimate pleasure.

[sesame]

Originally Posted by randolph

I don't believe in reincarnation, however, as I have mentioned before, the mind goes beyond quantitative science, it is qualitative.

What is the mind then, if it can transcend the physical plane?

Discovering ones kundalini latent energy will confirm this. Transcending the ego and becoming aware of ones inner female energy is "enlightment".
She is often called Uma Parvati the inner goddess, the soul. I worship her, she is the ultimate pleasure.

On one hand you admit the inner God /Goddess as the soul; and then you deny the existence of the eternal soul!

Does this Inner Goddess die? Was she ever born out of anything?
If not, you and I are talking about the same thing.
You call it Uma and I call it Soul, someone else calls it God.

The Yoga Sutras say that we are born again and again because of this desire for ephemeral things. When we realise our inner nature, which is complete and eternal, we do not thirst anymore... for we become one with the ultimate source of bliss and peace. That is called Kaivalya or Nirvana.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by sesame

What is the mind then, if it can transcend the physical plane?


On one hand you admit the inner God /Goddess as the soul; and then you deny the existence of the eternal soul!

Does this Inner Goddess die? Was she ever born out of anything?
If not, you and I are talking about the same thing.
You call it Uma and I call it Soul, someone else calls it God.

The Yoga Sutras say that we are born again and again because of this desire for ephemeral things. When we realise our inner nature, which is complete and eternal, we do not thirst anymore... for we become one with the ultimate source of bliss and peace. That is called Kaivalya or Nirvana.

I am not Indian or Hindu so this is difficult for me to conceptualize into words. My inner female spirit/soul is unique to me as I "view" her. When I die this female energy returns to the vast field of female energy in the universe. An analogy might be the Higgs field, which I imagine as female dark energy, which science is unable to "see". Each one of us, while living, has some of that energy within us. That energy is the same in all of us. I relate to mine as Uma. Another adept may relate to it in another way, but always female.
I think the Yoga Sutras are another way of saying that when we transcend our ego, we no longer direct our desires and needs outward. I meditate for two hours every morning. During that time I love the goddess. We play with each other, she takes many forms including transsexual, she is very erotic. I feel that since she is a spirit lacking a "body" she enjoys the sensual pleasures created within my body, my body is hers. The ego strongly resists this relationship. He wants to control all of my thoughts and actions. However, Uma is a lot more fun to be with. After my meditation, my ego returns and the usual daily life returns.
As the Dali Lama once said when asked "what is the meaning of life" he answered, "pleasure".

[Jenae LaTorque]

Originally Posted by Tread

Wouldn't this make you more an agnostic, than an atheist?

__________________________________________________ ________________

Def. from The American College Dictionary (applicable parts)

agnostic - one who holds that the ultimate cause (God) and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable or that human knowledge is limited to experiance.

atheist - one who denies or disbelieves the existance of God or gods.

Damn, do I have to pick one.

I am an atheist in the sense that I disbelieve the existance of God(s) as supernatural beings. Having been raised in a primarily Judeo-Christian culture and that history being the one I have studied the most; I have not the slightest belief in the existance of God, Jehovah, YAHWEH, EL-SHADDAI, etc.... As far as I am concerned, the ideas of God promoted by Jews, Muslims, and Christians is fanciful nonsense. Each of these religions would seem to have the God of the patriarch Abraham as their one true god. And yet look at the differances between them. And why would there be any differances if these faiths sprang from the same source. No, it is because these faiths are from the minds of men, and all men's minds are differant and reflect the various influences life has made upon them. Then you have, each faith splintered into so many differant branches; some with so little in common that they may as well be differant faiths. If there was such a god, then he must be a schizophrenic if one was to do a clinical assessment of the evidence of the behavior patterns attributed to him.

I am not an agnostic because I do believe that if the race of mankind survives long enough, we will expand our scope of knowledge to understand the essential nature of things. Look how many things we already understand the cause and effect for that were once things attributed to the gods. We no longer believe the sun is a chariot of fire being pulled across the sky. We know thunder and lightening have nothing to do with Thor, Jupiter or even Susanoo or Chaac. Droughts and plagues are not sent by gods to punish us. People are not possessed by demons, rather they suffer from mental illness. (I would even say they people are not possessed of the Holy Spirit, rather they are suffering a mental aberation.) It is very simple to see why biblical type miracles do not happen anymore (outside of the National Enquirer anyway). Think for a bit about how many things we take for granted as a common occurance would be heralded as a miracle a thousand years ago.

"And the lord NASA did speak to his child NEILA, who had journeyed to the moon in a silvery chariot, and commanded him to return to him, and to convey homeward the rocks he did find there"

FDR said that we have nothing to fear except fear itself. And what is so true for mankind except that we fear most what we don't understand. Ignorance is the prime cause of fear. I don't fear God because I understand. I do fear what paths ignorance and fear may lead us down. I despair of mankind when I see how easily fear-mongering leaders can motivate people to go against the basic tenets of their religious beliefs by using religion to foster hatred against others who are "differant".

Aw hell, I need a break here.