"Real Girls"

[PalmPilot]

Hello Bionca,

All to often myself and my fellow men open our big fat mouths and shove our feet into them simply because we are being selfish, ignorant jerks. Is it any excuse, no, and there is no excuse for it and never will be. You are a very courageous woman and a very beautiful one at that. I can't say when but one day you will find the right man for you. I can only hope that I will one day find a beautiful, courageous woman like yourself.

Sincerely
Michael

p.s. I mean it sincerely when I say you are a very beautiful woman.

[TheSkronkDonkey]

Language can be insensitive, but I think people should be allowed to draw a distinction without taking heat. It's just a matter of using the terms in the right contexts with respect. I do like the way you try and raise people's consciousnesses, though. Yes, the phrase carries a nasty connotation for you, but people DO need some way to delineate between someone who was born female and can theoretically give them children and someone who can't. Aside from that, all labels are inherently pernicious and wrong.

I don't have any easy advice for a person in your position. Your situation -- to put it mildly -- is utterly beyond my own limited spheres of experience. On the other hand, it sounds like you pick up some really classy people (sarcasm) and I wonder if there's any way for you to be more selective? Your quoting of Angie Zapata's murderer is an example of the kind of callous mentality I'm talking of: "I had to hit it". Who the hell says something as profoundly repugnant as that, let alone after killing someone? (I'm talking about the person responsible, not you for quoting it, by the way). If the people around you are even a tenth as bad as this, then, if I were you, I think I'd choose to remain celibate (which I currently am). I really hope this doesn't cause you personal offence, but you don't mince your words, and neither will I: Why do you talk about sleeping with this man or that man if they're all such bastards? Is sex a compulsion for you? Or do you keep wishing for the best and finding the worst? Given that I am celibate and would rather a deep, lasting relationship, I personally find it a bit galling to hear you wanting the same yet talk of sleeping with all these people who apparently dump you the moment the deed is done.

Other than that, I will repeat the opening sentence of my last paragraph: I don't have any easy advice for a person in your position. Do you have some for me? I find it difficult to connect with people in a meaningful way, which I personally find as agonising as the way you describe your own situation -- even though you clearly do face ten times the oppression and adversity that I (and many others of us) do. Bionca, I wish you all the best and I hope to hear more from you. Lastly, I again wish to say I hope I haven't offended you.

[Bionca]

Originally Posted by TheSkronkDonkey

Language can be insensitive, but I think people should be allowed to draw a distinction without taking heat. It's just a matter of using the terms in the right contexts with respect. I do like the way you try and raise people's consciousnesses, though. Yes, the phrase carries a nasty connotation for you, but people DO need some way to delineate between someone who was born female and can theoretically give them children and someone who can't. Aside from that, all labels are inherently pernicious and wrong.

I don't have any easy advice for a person in your position. Your situation -- to put it mildly -- is utterly beyond my own limited spheres of experience. On the other hand, it sounds like you pick up some really classy people (sarcasm) and I wonder if there's any way for you to be more selective? Your quoting of Angie Zapata's murderer is an example of the kind of callous mentality I'm talking of: "I had to hit it". Who the hell says something as profoundly repugnant as that, let alone after killing someone? (I'm talking about the person responsible, not you for quoting it, by the way). If the people around you are even a tenth as bad as this, then, if I were you, I think I'd choose to remain celibate (which I currently am). I really hope this doesn't cause you personal offence, but you don't mince your words, and neither will I: Why do you talk about sleeping with this man or that man if they're all such bastards? Is sex a compulsion for you? Or do you keep wishing for the best and finding the worst? Given that I am celibate and would rather a deep, lasting relationship, I personally find it a bit galling to hear you wanting the same yet talk of sleeping with all these people who apparently dump you the moment the deed is done.

Other than that, I will repeat the opening sentence of my last paragraph: I don't have any easy advice for a person in your position. Do you have some for me? I find it difficult to connect with people in a meaningful way, which I personally find as agonising as the way you describe your own situation -- even though you clearly do face ten times the oppression and adversity that I (and many others of us) do. Bionca, I wish you all the best and I hope to hear more from you. Lastly, I again wish to say I hope I haven't offended you.

Well, the guys mentioned in my first post were sprinkled through the past 7 years. The thing is... I AM selective when it comes to giving up the goodies. As often as not the "real girl" crap comes out because I didn't want to do anythong other than the agreed upon date. I also want to give people chances, so there was a point when I'd just go out with whomever asked provided they knew my status. Some of those were fine affairs, some became funny stories, some were downright insulting - not different than anyone's dates. It's the level of disrespect, not showing up for dates, and assumptions about gals like me that my natal femail friends simply can't relate to, but all my trans* friends know only too well. I think part of my personal issue is I went from very trusting and willing to give everyone a "shot" to being really jaded and untrusting in a rather short amount of time.

The past two years I have barely had any sex because I'm just tired of the BS, tired of being afraid, tired of being insulted, tired of that damn awkward silence as he pulls on his pants and he can't look me in the eye, tired of compliments being followed by "but...". Right now, I have a steady very casual FWB thing. It's fine since I don't expect anything else and I haven't been led to expect anything more either. Given what I hear from other T-gals this is about as good as it's likely to get - my past 7 year (open) relationship was some sort of fluke. Is that true - I don't know... I hope not *shrug*

Advice for you... You say you find it hard to connect with people. Why? What happens? Is it shyness on your part. do you find it difficult to "read" people's reactions? Or is it external, like you are in a situation where it is hard to meet people you have stuff in common? Do you find that you seem to connect with people but they seem to soon lose interest?

[TheSkronkDonkey]

Originally Posted by Bionca

Well, the guys mentioned in my first post were sprinkled through the past 7 years. The thing is... I AM selective when it comes to giving up the goodies. As often as not the "real girl" crap comes out because I didn't want to do anythong other than the agreed upon date. I also want to give people chances, so there was a point when I'd just go out with whomever asked provided they knew my status. Some of those were fine affairs, some became funny stories, some were downright insulting - not different than anyone's dates. It's the level of disrespect, not showing up for dates, and assumptions about gals like me that my natal femail friends simply can't relate to, but all my trans* friends know only too well. I think part of my personal issue is I went from very trusting and willing to give everyone a "shot" to being really jaded and untrusting in a rather short amount of time.

The past two years I have barely had any sex because I'm just tired of the BS, tired of being afraid, tired of being insulted, tired of that damn awkward silence as he pulls on his pants and he can't look me in the eye, tired of compliments being followed by "but...". Right now, I have a steady very casual FWB thing. It's fine since I don't expect anything else and I haven't been led to expect anything more either. Given what I hear from other T-gals this is about as good as it's likely to get - my past 7 year (open) relationship was some sort of fluke. Is that true - I don't know... I hope not *shrug*

Thanks for not beating me to death, Bionca. My tone was a little testy, I think, in spite of my pledge to the contrary. I appreciate your reply.

Originally Posted by Bionca

Advice for you... You say you find it hard to connect with people. Why? What happens? Is it shyness on your part. do you find it difficult to "read" people's reactions? Or is it external, like you are in a situation where it is hard to meet people you have stuff in common? Do you find that you seem to connect with people but they seem to soon lose interest?

I think the underlying cause is FEAR -- especially of the last scenario (i.e. that people will lose interest in time). And here's something else . . .

I tend to take things really personally and get hacked off the minute I hear ignorant judgementalism from someone, whether it's on sex and gender, music, books or whatever.

Of course, we should probably all hate ignorant judgementalism, but given that we're all guilty of it at times, I think my reaction is too extreme. In reality, it's probably a convenient excuse my mind has become adept at generating as a reason to keep people at a distance or push them away entirely.

I think I lack a great deal of confidence in myself and am never secure enough in my beliefs and life choices to be entirely comfortable around others. I think I continually struggle with determining how much of myself I should reveal to another person -- and that, in turn, hampers me in all things.

Apologies for the bleak and somewhat whiney response.

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by Bionca

I'm really not fond of non-trans women being called "real" girls, or for that matter trans women being referred to in the feminine with quotes around the pronouns - Like:

I really had a good time with a hot "girl" from the local tranny bar. "She" was pretty and looked like a real girl until "she" got naked.

I agree - I also believe that neglecting the fact that a transsexual is actually a transsexual woman as opposed to being a cisgendered woman is the same as disrespecting both her reality and femininity.

Again I get my opinion from a few of my very bright transsexual friends here who basicly consider themselves TRANS women and not cisgendered women.

The whole issue is to accept and understand M2F transsexuality as more than just an attempt to change gender. She may not be able to change her cromosones, but that does not make her less feminine or less of a woman - by my standards anyway.

H

[ladyboy1234]

any sexy ladyboys care to give the email add?..hehe..thx

[orion]

This is a fascinating thread and one which I'm sure will run & run ..

I agree Bionca, that labels are a pain ... I,for example, dislike the term "Admirer" .. to me that conjures up a vision of a sad little man in a dirty raincoat, lurking furtively on the edges of the Transgendered scene ... It most certainly doesn't describe me .. I prefer to describe myself (if I have to wear a label at all) as a "Suitor" .. as that best describes who and what I am ...

I suppose we could call those born genetically Female either "RG's" .. "GG's" or "NG's" (Natal Girls) ... but again, we're back to putting people into boxes ..

No matter how hard the Politically Correct lobby tries to counter it .. the world has been "pigeon-holing" people since time began .. and it won't change ..

Some terms of reference are, without doubt more offensive than others .. personally, I don't much like the word "Tranny" .. yet I hear it often being used amongst many of the Transgendered women I know .. so what do you do ? .. I've even heard the expression "Trannier than Thou" being bandied around in conversation & used as a put-down for a Transgendered woman who believes herself a cut above others ..

I'm sad to learn of the difficulties experienced by some writers concerning their dealings with Police .. here in UK we have the Gender Recognition Act .. and no Police Officer would risk his/her job by overstepping the mark .. in fact, I personally know two serving UK Police officers .. both of whom are MtF Transsexuals ..

My former partner (with whom I was in a two year relationship) and who, at that time was still Pre-op, was stopped late one night in Central London by Police .. because on her way home from the Hospital where she worked she'd pulled over to answer her mobile phone, right outside a sensitive Government building .. the Police checked her vehicle documents, which were still in her "Birth" name .. verified that she was who she said she was & was in lawful possession of the vehicle .. and throughout the encounter addressed her as "Miss Robin" ...

To say that "All Cops are assholes" is painting with a very broad brush indeed .. and is as untrue as saying .. "All TG people are the same" .. or "All Blacks are drug dealers" ... Think about it logically ..

Bye for now,

Orion ..

[desirouspussy]

Originally Posted by orion

...I, for example, dislike the term "Admirer" .. to me that conjures up a vision of a sad little man in a dirty raincoat, lurking furtively on the edges of the Transgendered scene ...

Amazing comment! Transsexual women often go through hell to achieve the status that I was lucky enough to be awarded through birth. The painful process they have to go through often leads to rejection by friends and family.

Now why on earth should only 'a sad little man in a dirty raincoat' admire such determination?

[smc]

Consider metaphysics, the study or theory of reality explored by Plato and Aristotle. Metaphysics is often used to describe, more narrowly, something called transcendent reality -- namely, the reality that lies beyond the physical world and is not, therefore, grasped by conventional means. In other words, metaphysics seeks to determine the nature of being and, as a philosophical exploration, is aimed at helping us discover the "true nature" of things. That, in turn, leads to an understanding of the ultimate reason for something's existence.

Plato, the great Greek philosopher, considered metaphysics. He believed in a transient reality. In essence, Plato saw two different levels of reality, and held that metaphysics is dualistic. To Plato, there were two different kind of things: physical and mental. There is what appears real and what is real. He saw two worlds: the being and the becoming.

Plato's answer to the basic metaphysical question of what reality is was that, fundamentally, reality is the form of things that are real, and not physical matter.

And what is the form? Plato originated this idea of Forms. He saw them as descriptions of essence. The Greek word also means epitome. So, two or more stones can both be said to be round if they participate in the Form roundness, and Plato held that the Form roundness exists separately from round things.

All this is to say that Bionca, or anyone else, is a girl -- and no less real a girl -- because she participates in the Form girlness. Not convinced? Read her posts, and those of the other thoughtful transgendered participants in the discussions here and in other threads. That is all the proof one needs.

[orion]

Originally Posted by GGadmirer

Now why on earth should only 'a sad little man in a dirty raincoat' admire such determination?

Hi GGadmirer ...

To answer your question .. it's not so much that only "sad little men in dirty rain coats" admire Transwomen .. Admiration & respect are open to everyone, if they so choose ..

The fact is that there are a large group of men who continue to perceive Transwomen as something "risky", "dangerous", "fun", "different" .. in other words a secret little fetish which they'd rather their families, work colleagues or friends didn't know they liked ..

They indulge their "little secret" on the quiet .. and then scuttle off home to the wife .. as if nothing had ever happened ..

These are the people who lack the moral conviction to admit (sometimes even to themselves) that they find Transwomen attractive .. so, they "lurk" on the fringes .. thus giving those of us who are perfectly open about what we like & don't like a bad name ..

A bad name that is, amongst Transwomen .. from my own personal experience, I've been told by T-Girls whom I've dated that once they'd got past the initial "Admirer" thing .. I was totally different from what they'd been expecting ..

As has been said in previous posts .. labels (of all kinds) can be pernicious, whether applied to Transwomen .. or to those of us who prefer their company & treat them as women and with the respect to which they're entitled, as people ..

Hence my dislike for the term "Admirer" .. I wish there were some practical way of separating the two ...

I happen to be one of the fortunate ones in that I'm in a loving, caring, stable relationship with my girlfriend, Jenny .. a vivacious, down-to-earth, very attractive Transwoman .. whom I happen to love very much and whose company I'm proud to be in ...

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by orion

Hence my dislike for the term "Admirer" .. I wish there were some practical way of separating the two ...

Mizzy B and I tried here at this forum to find other terms... unsuccesfully...

1. "Admirer" is a little bit too much like a kinky, ugly grease ball in the proverbial rain coat...

2. "Tranny-Chaser" sounds like a drink... "Can I have two Buds and a Tranny-Chaser on the side... make it a double, will ya. Be generous on the spunk...?"

3. "Tranny-lover" is also cheasy... a guy secretly jerking off to his fascination...

4. "Tranny-chaser"... he goes to Bangkok twice a year and keeps it hidden... but he makes little dots in his bed every time he beds a little tranny down...

My sweet Fey once called me a "shemale-collector" and a "shemale-protector", but I doubt that applies either...

So what is the term for us hideous, abnormal perverts?

I dunno - "a guy like me who likes a girl like her..." ? That's still the best, though, a highly user-unfriendly and impractical term...

H

[lebguy]

Originally Posted by Bionca

I'm really not fond of non-trans women being called "real" girls, or for that matter trans women being referred to in the feminine with quotes around the pronouns - Like:

I really had a good time with a hot "girl" from the local tranny bar. "She" was pretty and looked like a real girl until "she" got naked.

Aside from the obvious trivializing of my identity and the stuff I had to go through and endure; it's dangerous. Seriously dangerous - Angie Zapata's murderer told the cops "I had to hit it" - Angie wasn't a woman..she wasn't even a person. To a lesser degree, I have been with at least 5 guys who at some post let me know that they were done with me because they liked "real girls". One of them minutes after he talked me (begged is probably a better term) into giving it up for him. I was in bed when he got that stupid awkward look on his face and said "wow you were really hot - but I like the real thing".

I could point out the purely physical stuff and say that they are "feminine" or "womanly" - but really, I was as much a woman before I ever laid eyes on hormones or a skirt or some eyeliner so that whole "femininity" thing doesn't really prove anything - I'd be a chick if I stopped shaving my legs and wore a suit - it's who I am not what I'm wearing.

I think the part that stinks for me (and probably most Trans* folks) is me transitioning was me being 100% authentic - ultimately honest with myself and the world. When that honesty is called dishonest it hurts.

First, I wanna say Happy New Year everyone and I hope 2009 will be full of safety, happiness, love and security for everyone. I know I haven't been on for some time, I really have bad times and preferring to be away of people.

I think I mentioned it many times before, but for me there is no difference between "girls" and "tgirls" in my opinion, that's why I use the term girls for both and there's no difference between them. As Bionca mentioned, it's not how you look, but it's how you feel. girls born in the wrong body if I can say that, have all the right to do whatever it takes so they can feel they are in the right body. I think it's no one business what every single person want to do with their personal lives.

As for relationships, I think it's the same way with everyone, jerks are jerks whether they are guys or girls, good people are also there, but it's kinda hard to find them and I think that we don't really look for good people till after we hit the wall several times.

[Soontobe]

Originally Posted by Bionca

I was in bed when he got that stupid awkward look on his face and said "wow you were really hot - but I like the real thing".

I think the part that stinks for me (and probably most Trans* folks) is me transitioning was me being 100% authentic - ultimately honest with myself and the world. When that honesty is called dishonest it hurts.

Its a shame there are so many people who are like that - for me its about who the person is. For instance I'm not attracted to guys - but I wouldn't say that I would never have a relationship with a guy, it depends on the individual. I haven't explained that very well, I guess it comes down to people being more open minded, not denying their feelings towards any given gender and not just putting people into categories based on physical appereance. End of rant.

[smc]

Originally Posted by Soontobe

Its a shame there are so many people who are like that - for me its about who the person is. For instance I'm not attracted to guys - but I wouldn't say that I would never have a relationship with a guy, it depends on the individual. I haven't explained that very well, I guess it comes down to people being more open minded, not denying their feelings towards any given gender and not just putting people into categories based on physical appereance. End of rant.

It could not have been put better, Soontobe:

"people being more open minded, not denying their feelings towards any given gender and not just putting people into categories based on physical appereance"

Wow, imagine the world with just this one type of denial overcome by even a tenth or a twentieth or a thousandth of all of us on the face of the earth!

[Bionca]

smc- interesting post. I generally agree. The only place I think this could expand is with "essence". That is, including the idea of identity or internal knowing.

When discussing people, it is often what is going on mentally/emotionally that proves more important than what is seen externally. A person could be, by all appearances, happy and content while internally conflicted and depressed. Or, a person can have a body of a boy, yet still process the world as a girl.

I like when discussions here take a turn for the cerebral.

[smc]

Originally Posted by Bionca

smc- interesting post. I generally agree. The only place I think this could expand is with "essence". That is, including the idea of identity or internal knowing.

When discussing people, it is often what is going on mentally/emotionally that proves more important than what is seen externally. A person could be, by all appearances, happy and content while internally conflicted and depressed. Or, a person can have a body of a boy, yet still process the world as a girl.

I like when discussions here take a turn for the cerebral.

Bionca, the operative words in what I wrote are "participating in the Form." The great thing about it all is that the Form has a universality that cannot be undone just because some idiot tells you you're not a girl, or all girl, or whatever the idiot thinks. You are so clearly participating in the form girlness, and that is what makes you a real girl. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

[randolph]

SMC made an excellent post , discussing Plato’s view of metaphysics and the concept of “forms” or how transsexuals fit into the “essence” of girlness. Eckhard Tolle in his book “Awakening to your Life’s Purpose” expands on this concept of “forms” and how they relate to our ego centered identity.

I also would like to put in my two cents worth. Indian mysticism and especially the philosophy Tantric yoga has significance for transsexuals. In Tantric yoga there is a God “Siva” and a Goddess “Parvati”. Tantric adepts “worshipers” believe that Siva is inert until Parvati merges with him in sexual union. Parvati possesses the energy that enables Siva to create the universe. Some Tantric sects worship the transsexual aspect of this union and create statues representing this union as half male and half female, in other words transsexual.
Tantric philosophy reveals that the female energy of the Goddess is suppressed in males. In the male human, the ego actively suppresses the female spirit within, in order to maintain male ego dominance. This female energy can be activated and transcend the male ego by meditation and worshiping the Goddess (called kundalini in India). This energy rises from the base of the spine and can produces very powerful self awareness “enlightenment” if you will, with a feeling of bonding with the universe.
I suspect that male hostility directed toward transsexuals has something to do with the basic insecurity the male ego has toward females and especially toward males transcending into females. They know subconsciously that males are psychically inferior to females and their ego dominance is threatened. This is an extremely brief presentation of Tantric yoga and may not make much sense but I know from personal experience that it works. I am a straight male and Tantric yoga has made my relationship with women much easier. Sometime, I would like to know how well I could get along with a tgirl.

[breen]

im new to all this but my opinion which is probably wrong is.. why does a girl have to have a pussy.. a TS girl should be respected it takes a lot to put up with the shit they take... id be honered and proud to hace a TS girl on my arm

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by breen

im new to all this but my opinion which is probably wrong is.. why does a girl have to have a pussy.. a TS girl should be respected it takes a lot to put up with the shit they take... id be honered and proud to hace a TS girl on my arm

Well, WELCOME to the club, my man! If this is your line of thinking you and I will be great friends!

You're completely right!

H

[breen]

thanks for that H.. much appreciated... its a confused world out there and im part of it...

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by breen

thanks for that H.. much appreciated... its a confused world out there and im part of it...

Don't be confused at all, my man, just know what you believe in! And supporting transsexuality any which way one can is a pretty good belief and a rather good way.

The confusement comes, when we forget our core values - such as basic respect for humans with different views than us (this excludes Republicans, of course... kiiiddiiing...).

If you can find space in your heart to encompass the poetic and real beauty of transsexuality, then you are, indeed, further than most of your fellow men, friend!

May I ask, do you have a transsexual girlfriend?

H

[escierto]

After having read this entire thread, here is the thing I do not understand. What is so fucking difficult about treating everyone with kindness and respect regardless of what they have in their pants or whether you wrongfully believed they had something else in their pants? EVERYONE is fucking entitled to the same kindness and respect regardless of physiology, regardless of gender, regardless of race, regardless of sexual orientation. Human beings, fuck, get with the program!