Vicious comments from women

[desirouspussy]

Originally Posted by Bionca
Some of the MOST vicious things directed to me and my friends (as well as more famous trans*) have been from natal women. Women are probably more critical of gendered presentation than men are (ask any natal woman who was tall, chunky, a tom-boy who was meaner boys or girls).

Coming from a girl whose well-balanced comments I generally value highly, this comment posted by her some time ago hit me like a brick, and it is still bothering me today.

I was surprised because I have come to believe that women are on the whole more tolerant towards gay relations than men. Why then would their attitude towards the third gender be so very different?

I would love to hear from other girls here. Do you have the same experience and what do you think the reason could be? Could there perhaps be jealousy involved?

[new believer]

I usually take Bionca's comments as gospel. She is bright , articulate and pretty much 'street wise'. On this comment however I might see a different perspective. I've dated mostly tall girls/women in my life. about 1/3 were taller than I at six foot tall. (maybe that's my attraction to TG's) The girls/women were always self conscious of their height, and even walked slightly 'stooped' over in an attempt to minimize the fact. I always had to urge them on to be proud of who they are. As far as their outlook to others, they knew more gays then I and enjoyed their company. Perhaps they felt a kinship of being 'different'. The couple of girls who were tom boys, also liked a gay friend of ours when he 'came out'. Haven't seen those girls in a long time so it could be that they're lesbians and that friend of ours could have been their training ground to future endeavors. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm just defending tall women. I have seen only a couple of rude actions/comments against gays,but never by a gg. As for TG's, never knew one in the past or present so Bionca could be speaking on a plain I know nothing of. But I hope she has experienced only isolated incidents.
Still, Bionca has my deepest respect and regards. NB

[ila]

I have watched documentaries on television and read artcles in various media in which gg's have made the most snide, rude remarks about transwomen. The gg's concerned were not at all accepting of transwomen. This doesn't mean that all gg's are rude to transwomen as I have seen gg's speaking in support of transwomen.

The same also holds true for men. Some men accept, support, and love transwomen. There are others that will go out of their way to demean transwomen. I am very happy to be one the men that accepts, supports, and loves transwomen.

[timshield]

Originally Posted by GGadmirer

Coming from a girl whose well-balanced comments I generally value highly, this comment posted by her some time ago hit me like a brick, and it is still bothering me today.

I was surprised because I have come to believe that women are on the whole more tolerant towards gay relations than men. Why then would their attitude towards the third gender be so very different?

I would love to hear from other girls here. Do you have the same experience and what do you think the reason could be? Could there perhaps be jealousy involved?

comments such as? don't think youre alone in this one the (straight) guys who date lbs get a couple of remarks to..

[desirouspussy]

Originally Posted by timshield

comments such as? don't think youre alone in this one the (straight) guys who date lbs get a couple of remarks to..

I don't think you quite understand my meaning, timshield. I am most definitely not criticizing Bionca for making this comment. In fact, I do much appreciate her openness on the subject.

It's the subject she raises that I question. Are women really less tolerant in their attitude towards the third gender and why is it so?

[ila]

Originally Posted by GGadmirer

It's the subject she raises that I question. Are women really less tolerant in their attitude towards the third gender and why is it so?

I don't think one can make the statement that all women are less tolerant in their attitudes. A more accurate statement would be some are less tolerant, some are openly hostile, and some are very accepting. Plus there are many more views between the poles of intolerance and tolerance. Judging from your posts, GG, I would say that you are at the high end of tolerance and acceptance. If you weren't tolerant and accepting then you wouldn't even be a member of this site. You are not the only natal woman that holds those views. There are several other natal women that are members this site that are just as accepting and tolerant.

What we are unlikely to find here are those natal women that are intolerant of transwomen, just because they will not join a site like this because of their views.

I urge you to search the internet for more information on this subject so that you may find what natal women are saying. A good place to start is Bionca's blog. She provides articles and links to other sites that lead to still more sites.

The level of intolerance will astound you. Also the level of acceptance will, I'm sure, find favour with you.

To sum up I would like to reiterate that the spectrum of tolerance to intolerance is large. Search out other articles on this subject to get a fuller understanding of attitudes.

[franalexes]

Guys seem to attack one on one. Women attack as a pack. That is, Margie hates you because she was with Flo and she was at a party with Janice who heard Joyce say that Barbie's cousin had a fight with Rachel who looked like she might be TS, and you were seen last week with Rachel. Now, get all these gals together and you want to express an opinion! Are you crazy? They all hate your guts.

[TheSkronkDonkey]

In my experience, women are as ignorantly judgemental as men -- if not moreso. I have lost count of the number of times women in the break room at work have turned over the pages of a magazine or chatted to each other and berated this celebrity or that one. For many, it seems to be a natural part of their daily lives. Women are absolutely some of the most cantankerous, vicious people you can meet. Though they can also be wonderful, wonderful people.

Simply, women seem very critical of other people, especially other women. All my managers at work are female and they are *all* bitches. I hope you won't mistake me for a misognyist, as it's more or less universally agreed by the work force that the management is deeply unprofessional and plain rude at times. But again, there are always people that restore your faith in humanity and buck the trend. In this case, the regional manager that used to visit, who outranked all the regular managers at work, was one of the nicest ladies I've ever met. She eventually left her job (actually, she transferred) partially because of what the other managers were like.

But yeah, females. A lot seem to have strict definitions of what men and women should be like. Like men do. The difference is that women are often a lot more vocal about it. I think the odds are dramatically stacked against anybody who breaks too many conventions, which means effeminate men, masculine women, women that wear certain clothing that other women don't like, men who don't like cars or football, or, and especially, transgendered people.

[Bionca]

Women are't more vicious toward Trans*women. My comment was that women enforce gendered behavior amongst them selves more viciously than men do. Women are more cruel to "tomboys" than guys are for example.

As far as women being more accepting of Trans* ... yes and no. Generally, I am more comfortable telling natal women than I am men. However, no man has ever thrown a fit when I try to use the lady's bathroom. When she finds out the status of my genetalia often the next comment is "Oh so you aren't a 'real woman' yet". Then we have 30 years of Radical Feminism discussing women like me as "mutilated men", constructions bent on infiltration of women's spaces, dupes of social conditioning that say men do x and women do y.

The anger and objections from women make it so that we can't get assistance in domestic violence shelters, can get arrested if caught in the "wrong" locker room (and assulted when we use the other one), we go the men's prision if we are convicted of crimes. We are held to a higher standard of personal presentation (that get's us either way). We get told that when we are angry and/or defending our right to talk about our lives we are suddenly in posession of "male energy" and we are being "too loud" like a man. If we are demure and wear makeup, we are playing into the steriotype of woman.

[timshield]

ehm well i think that blokes are more offensive to lbs for obvious reasons because some see it as false advertising its all fun and games until one gets fooled into thinking shes a realgirl they can just snap you get the macho anti-queens etc reactions

alot of girls see lbs as a mysterious interesting object from what i hear a 3th sex something that cant be seen as boy or girl

but i think this can easily switch to jealousy as soon as youre in a club or something and all the guys will just stare at a cute lb.. instead of the girls themselves loads of girls want to be the center of attention.. dont take it from them lol

[transjen]

Speaking from my own reactions from Ggirls i have to say for the most part those who knew i wasn't a Ggirl where understanding and some were very helpful with good advice my best friend Karen who is a Ggirl kinda adopted me as her little sister and tought me the finer points of being a girl, But also some of the meanest hatered has also came from Ggirls from a co-worker who didn't want me using the womens bathroom and found it insalting when i came to work as a woman, My own flesh and blood sister said some of the most hurtful things to me when i started living fultime as Jennifer and then there's my own mother when when well nevermind sorry but that is to painful to write about, But i've found their reactions to be like mens in other words mixed some are accepting and others are not, If people won't accept me fine there is nothing i can do or say to change there minds, I didn't become Jennifer to piss them off or to turn others on i did it to be me and to please the it matters most too ME Jennifer

[Rachel]

Originally Posted by franalexes

Guys seem to attack one on one. Women attack as a pack. That is, Margie hates you because she was with Flo and she was at a party with Janice who heard Joyce say that Barbie's cousin had a fight with Rachel who looked like she might be TS, and you were seen last week with Rachel. Now, get all these gals together and you want to express an opinion! Are you crazy? They all hate your guts.

I KICKED BARBIE'S COUSINS ASS!!!!!! LOL

[merelypink]

yeah thats a good question

[hankhavelock]

When I told my first x-wife about my transsexual girlfriend she simply asked if I now had become gay... I answered her "probably" and after that she was merely interested in the more technical details of our sex-life which I readily explained to her.

Cisgender women are and will always remain cisgender women (except for the ones who turn f2m trannies...) and they don't necessarily understand a bit of this. That said, I have also from women friends met an enormous respect for my passion - actually Tina, my x-girlfriend from years ago is a true "supporter" and totally nice and open minded.

[lunch000]

My girl friend is pretty cool, she allows me to buy and wear women's underwear. Not the cool thong or sexy kind, but the soft satin and silky full back kind. She goes with me to Victoria's Secret and helps me pick then out.

I know she would freak if I told her I like Tgirls, she would think im gay, I dont consider my self gay i do not like men only feminine ts girls. There is something about them???

[new believer]

I'll have to take the opinions of TG's. Like I stated, in my experience tall girls were more accepting,even among themselves in groups, of gay guys. I or my past crowd I referred to have never met or even seen up close and personal a TG.
Now another factor, are the angry women who make these rude remarks and or actions either lesbians or less attractive GG's who feel 'threatened' by someone more attractive thereby more competition?

[desirouspussy]

Thanks you for your comments and especially for the contributions from the girls here. You've made me feel a whole lot better on the subject.

[darkstargemini]

> i have a real good friend that is trangender and i was down the street one day with a bunch of so called friends guys ok they saw this person they did not no she was my friend and said hey why don,t u go fuck whatever that thing yes that thing i did hear it right i said to them that person is a friend of mine and they all shut up never ever heard anything else about it strange isn,t it but true.

[shooting_shark]

Hi Bionca,

Originally Posted by Bionca

Then we have 30 years of Radical Feminism discussing women like me as "mutilated men", constructions bent on infiltration of women's spaces, dupes of social conditioning that say men do x and women do y.

Found this part of your post very interesting... care to elaborate?

[Bionca]

Originally Posted by shooting_shark

Hi Bionca,



Found this part of your post very interesting... care to elaborate?

Google ant-trans Feminists or Mary Daley, Janice Raymond, Germaine Greer, Shelia Jefferies.

You can also look up Sandy Stone to read about how death threats and a boycott were used to get a Transwoman fired from the first "woman's music" company.

[Mandy]

All of my support in my transition has come from women. My closest friends are women, and without the love and support of non trans women I never would have become the woman I am today.

I guess straight women might be harsher when it comes to TS, but I don't have much experience with straight women.

It's true that some women can be really nasty, especially in bathrooms, but I've had female friends stick up for me (being willing to physically confront the person who was haranguing me), so I don't have the same feelings.

[Amy]

You really can't win with some, who see us as threatening for a variety of reasons, no one more than the others.

[shooting_shark]

Originally Posted by Bionca

Google ant-trans Feminists or Mary Daley, Janice Raymond, Germaine Greer, Shelia Jefferies.

You can also look up Sandy Stone to read about how death threats and a boycott were used to get a Transwoman fired from the first "woman's music" company.

Thanks. I have an interest in sociology, history and political philosophy, and always been intrigued by the forces that shape revolutionary and radical thought. I guess this is one case where such ideas are merely another form of "reverse bigotry" and group mentality - very unfortunate....

[Mandy]

Originally Posted by Bionca

Google ant-trans Feminists or Mary Daley, Janice Raymond, Germaine Greer, Shelia Jefferies.

You can also look up Sandy Stone to read about how death threats and a boycott were used to get a Transwoman fired from the first "woman's music" company.

Yeah, but that brand of feminism is dying, and for the most part queer and feminist women are supportive of TS, much more so than the straight world.

[smc]

Originally Posted by Mandy

Yeah, but that brand of feminism is dying, and for the most part queer and feminist women are supportive of TS, much more so than the straight world.

In my work with a local antiwar group here in the Boston area, I meet a lot of young "queer" and "feminist" women in their 20s. They are almost without exception tremendously supportive of the trans people in the group, and even argue vociferously to ensure that at any public event someone from the trans people get to be a speaker. They then make sure that their trans "status" is openly stated in the introduction, as a means of telling all those gathered that this is "okay"!

Gauging the reaction of the older self-described feminist women, many of whom I have known for a long time, I would say that there is a gamut from complete support to discomfort. I have yet to confront any of them about this, but I will do so. The older Vets for Peace guys seem a bit uncomfortable, too, but they don't seem challenged in the way that the older women do.

So far, I am happy to report that no one has gone so far as to try and stifle the participation of our many trans activists. The younger people seem to set the tone and win the day -- for which I am very happy!

None of this is to diminish what Bionca is reporting, but rather to provide a picture of one small part of the world where things are going a bit better.

[Bionca]

Generally, the support I receive is mainly from non-trans women and feminists in particular. I am active online and offline with feminist organizations. That said, some of the most mean and hurtful comments I have seen and have been directed to me are from Rad Fem lesbians. Lets not forget that the writers I mentioned above along with Karla Mantilla have been used to bar Trans* women from various domestic violence shelters, denying use of medicare for HRT and SRS (followed soon by insurance companies).

In day to day life it is my girls (both trans and not) that made all the difference in the world.

[GRH]

[QUOTE=Bionca;68179]Generally, the support I receive is mainly from non-trans women and feminists in particular. I am active online and offline with feminist organizations. That said, some of the most mean and hurtful comments I have seen and have been directed to me are from Rad Fem lesbians.[QUOTE]

Probably my best friends are a lesbian couple who I LOVE to death! But I know what Bionca is talking about...While feminism in theory is in support of a break-down of gender assignments and patriarchy, there IS a certain cross-current of feminist thought which believes we are NOT women, and will NEVER know what it's like to be women, thus we are not part of "the cause."

Similarly, I think some of the concept of female prejudice arises from the the fact that many transgendered individuals marry straight women without being out. Only after several years of marriage do the straight women discover that they married a "fairy boy" or however they conceive of trans-people. I don't fault them for this...The vanilla-heterosexual conception of marriage is so predominant in our society, it MUST be a shock to find out you married someone who doesn't fit the mold. But I think that shock and disillusionment is where you find many women less than admirable of T-Girls.

[twistedone]

They don't like the competition.