Self Defense

[SluttyShemaleAnna]

correction time:

Originally Posted by JodieTs

• 28 day detention which Tony B(liar) wanted as 92 days., Without trial. (ended this january)
• No automatic right to protest. (not true, protests outside parliament require notice but can't be denied)
• Need police permission to have a gathering (not true)
• APNR everywhere. Tracking EVERYONE not just criminals
• DNA database (was ruled illegal by the European court and will be dismantled)
• ID cards. Some suggestion Tories trying to bring that back (still not happened)
• Suggestion to get everyone on DNA database when they are born. (wow, so speculation == reality now?)
• Extradition treaty with the USA Gary McKinnon ++Nat West Three
  where our rights are fucked over by those in charge.
• Transfer of sovereignty power to Brussels without mandate.
• No Bill of rights, like the USA have (European human rights legislation is better than the US bill of rights)
• no second amendment (and again..)
• No right to silence. In fact silence may now be taken by court as an admission of guilt. (not true, you have the right to silence, interestingly tho, in the US, they can override the right to silence)
• Illegal to film or take a photo of a policeman (not true, it's a lie made up by police, if a policeman ever tells you that you can't take a photo, tell them to fuck off and ask them for their badge number)
• GCHQ looks at everything in the UK. (they want you to think that, but they don't, service providers have consistently told the authorities to swivel on it)
  (If you type: ?Atom bomb? three times in a row you see a white van parked outside, with a rotating Ariel) {Ok. I made that one up}
• Oh on the subject on Guantanimo, a UK citizen was locked up there for years,
• then later released without charge, while the uk did nothing.
• Ok the uk is one of the top 4 exporters of weapons to dodgy states, despite the majority of people being against it.
• 2, 000,000 people marched against the Iraq war but B(liar) ignored them
• Fingerprinting schoolchildren (outlawed by current regime)

Why all those things?
Oh yes, ...coz it's a friggin police state.

Anyhow, I'm not sure how any of those things are worse than what has gone on in the US, which defeats the point you were trying to make that somehow having guns magically stops the development of a police state.

The issue of gun ownership and the ?right to carry? is very politically charged. Like so many complex issues there are valid arguments on all sides and an individual?s feelings may be influenced by many factors such as what country they live in, their culture, and their own past experiences. I happen to believe that if one is properly trained and carries a gun legally and responsibly it can go a long way towards making them safer. I also think that working out, learning a martial art, taking a self-defense class, or simply ?being aware? of your surroundings can also be quite effective and are often the best alternatives no matter where you live. Simply by feeling good about yourself and walking confidently you can avoid being a victim.

My purpose in starting this thread was to promote the idea of ?self-defense? and perhaps share things that have worked with each other. Not necessarily to promote guns or discuss whether it is ones ?right? to carry a gun. I shouldn?t have to explain to the members of this forum how real the threat of violence and hate crimes toward members of our community is?all over the world. There are many ways to deal with the possibility of violence?from avoidance to direct armed confrontation. I live in the United States where it is legal (in most places) to carry a gun. I have training in martial arts and I guess some people would say am ?obsessed? with strength and fitness.

Also, the situations I am considering are those that are most likely to occur in everyday life. Such as being followed out of a bar by a gang of troublemakers, a confrontation in a parking garage or mall, or perhaps someone breaking into my home with the intent of harming me or my family (a member of TLB who doesn?t like my posts maybe? ). I have a M2F friend who is deathly afraid of having her car breakdown on I-65 downtown and being confronted by a gang--and she is even more afraid of guns--she and people like her were who I had in mind when I started this thread. The recent tragedy in Norway is something else entirely and my heart goes out to the victims and their families. Ila once suggested that I should teach a self-defense class for transwomen. I would be happy to share what I know with others on here or, if you live near Indianapolis and want to learn how to shoot or just ?kick someone?s ass? should you ever have to PM me.

[JodieTs]

Originally Posted by SluttyShemaleAnna

correction time:
Anyhow, I'm not sure how any of those things are worse than what has gone on in the US, which defeats the point you were trying to make that somehow having guns magically stops the development of a police state.

JodieTs
Double correction time:

Oh on the subject on Guantanimo, a UK citizen was locked up there for years, then later released without charge, while the uk did nothing.
>>>We agree on this one?

Ok the uk is one of the top 4 exporters of weapons to dodgy states, despite the majority of people being against it.
>>>We agree on this one?

2, 000,000 people marched against the Iraq war but B(liar) ignored them
>>>We agree on this one?

Fingerprinting schoolchildren (outlawed by current regime)
>>>We agree on this one?

APNR everywhere. Tracking EVERYONE not just criminals
>>>We agree on this one?

Extradition treaty with the USA Gary McKinnon ++Nat West Three
where our rights are fucked over by those in charge.
>>>We agree on this one?

Transfer of sovereignty power to Brussels without mandate.
>>>We agree on this one?


28 day detention which Tony B(liar) wanted as 92 days., Without trial. (ended this january)
>>> They want to bring it back
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13882528
Isabella Sankey of campaign group Liberty said:
"Fourteen days is already far longer than any comparable democracy"

No Bill of rights, like the USA have
(European human rights legislation is better than the US bill of rights)
>>>Oh no it's not. It is not as robust as the USA bill of rights for the individual citizens protection from the state.
For a start, it gives the right to bear arms.but it is a freedom the uk does not have, fact.

USA bill of rights says:
Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The UK dilutes this to the following:
Human Rights Act:
Article 11: Freedom of Assembly
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

(2) No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others

This Article shall not prevent the imposition of lawful restrictions on the exercise of these rights by members of the armed forces, of the police or of the administration of the state.

For fucks sake....
If they don't like what you are doing, they can send the army in....
Now do you see the difference?

no second amendment
(and again..)
>>>Likewise
The second amendment of the USA constitution enshrines the right of citizens to bear arms
There is nothing like that in the European act.

No automatic right to protest.
(not true, protests outside parliament require notice but can't be denied)
>>>Protests have to be notified to the police 6 days in advance.
And the police can refuse permission.
Public Order Act 1986
PART II PROCESSIONS AND ASSEMBLIES
11. (1) Written notice shall be given in accordance with this section of any proposal to hold a public procession intended
(a) to demonstrate support for or opposition to the views or actions of any person or body of persons,
(b) to publicise a cause or campaign, or
(c) to mark or commemorate an event,
And a senior police officer can refuse permission.

Need police permission to have a gathering
(not true)
>>>Under section 14 (1) If a senior police officer has concerns about any public assembly,
they may impose conditions upon the persons organising the assembly, its max duration, number of persons involved.
Criminal charges can be brought against those not complying with orders
(max. sentence 3 months prison and / or Level 4 fine).
so they can't stop you gathering,
But like Monopoly, you can collect 3 months and go directly to jail.

DNA database
(was ruled illegal by the European court and will be dismantled)
>>>citation please
>>>Anyway http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...-supreme-court
The police are refusing to remove innocent people from the database

Suggestion to get everyone on DNA database when they are born.
(wow, so speculation == reality now?)
>>>It's called not trusting the powers as they abuse it when the people look away

ID cards. Some suggestion Tories trying to bring that back
(still not happened)
>>>It's called not trusting the powers as they abuse it when the people look away

No right to silence. In fact silence may now be taken by court as an admission of guilt.
(not true, you have the right to silence, interestingly tho, in the US, they can override the right to silence)
>>>In the USA the right to silence is guaranteed under the 5 amendment.
But in the UK, you no longer have the right of silence
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/police/powers/custody/
Right to silence

You also have the right not to mention anything when questioned. However adverse inferences can be drawn from this. No inferences may be drawn if a person has not been given the opportunity to consult a solicitor before being questioned, charged, or informed of a prosecution.

Illegal to film or take a photo of a policeman
(not true, it's a lie made up by police, if a policeman ever tells you that you can't take a photo, tell them to fuck off and ask them for their badge number)
>>>This was banned under the "Fuck you over terrorism excuse" act.
...people got arrested for it.
A senior police officer has advised my partner that you can photo/film police. I stand partially corrected on this.
But you need to tell the local beat bobbies this

You tube this there are tons of films like this one.

GCHQ looks at everything in the UK.
(If you type: ?Atom bomb? three times in a row you see a white van parked outside, with a rotating Ariel) {Ok. I made that one up}
(they want you to think that, but they don't, service providers have consistently told the authorities to swivel on it)
>>> "Google" Deep Packet Inspection
>>> Also "Google" Duncan Campbell ECHELON

No tin foil hats were used in the production of this "Correction" of your "Correction"

As I said Police state.

[JodieTs]

Originally Posted by SluttyShemaleAnna

Anyhow, I'm not sure how any of those things are worse than what has gone on in the US, which defeats the point you were trying to make that somehow having guns magically stops the development of a police state.

I never said that having guns magically stops the development of a police state.
Don't misquote me; guns scare me, so I wouldn't say that.

However, a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
{2nd amendment} Those guys seem to know more about these things that I do.

Also, take a look at Switzerland....
Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/1566715.stm
Guns are deeply rooted within Swiss culture - but the gun crime rate is so low that statistics are not even kept.

The country has a population of six million, but there are estimated to be at least two million publicly-owned firearms, including about 600,000 automatic rifles and 500,000 pistols.

I bet they don't get a lot of break-in's either....

[JodieTs]

Seems a guy cruised thru a stop sign, or whatever, and got pulled over by a local policeman. Guy handed the cop his driver's license, insurance verification, plus his concealed carry permit.

"Okay, Mr. Smith," the cop said, "I see your CHL permit. Are you carrying today?"

"Yes, I am."

"Well then, better tell me what you got."

Smith said, "Well, I got a ...357 revolver in my inside coat pocket. There's a 9 mm semi-auto in the glove box. And, I've got a .22 magnum derringer in my right boot."

"Okay," the cop said. "Anything else?"

"Yeah, back in the trunk, there's an AR-15 and a shotgun. That's about it."

"Mr. Smith, are you on your way to or from a gun range?"

"Nope."

"Well then, what are you afraid of?"

"Not a damn thing."

[KittyKaiti]

Originally Posted by JodieTs

Seems a guy cruised thru a stop sign, or whatever, and got pulled over by a local policeman. Guy handed the cop his driver's license, insurance verification, plus his concealed carry permit.

"Okay, Mr. Smith," the cop said, "I see your CHL permit. Are you carrying today?"

"Yes, I am."

"Well then, better tell me what you got."

Smith said, "Well, I got a ...357 revolver in my inside coat pocket. There's a 9 mm semi-auto in the glove box. And, I've got a .22 magnum derringer in my right boot."

"Okay," the cop said. "Anything else?"

"Yeah, back in the trunk, there's an AR-15 and a shotgun. That's about it."

"Mr. Smith, are you on your way to or from a gun range?"

"Nope."

"Well then, what are you afraid of?"

"Not a damn thing."

Total badassry.

[KittyKaiti]

Originally Posted by JodieTs

I never said that having guns magically stops the development of a police state.
Don't misquote me; guns scare me, so I wouldn't say that.

However, a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
{2nd amendment} Those guys seem to know more about these things that I do.

Having guns doesn't specifically prevent the development of a police state but key incidents can spark the revolution which results in the overthrow of the regime and establishment of a new government, as specified in our own Declaration of Independence. For example: the government outlaws guns and negates the Second Amendment or, unlawfully imposed Martial Law or Homeland Security decides to start hauling certain peoples off to those FEMA camps.

[Suckslut]

I don't have a problem with people keeping fire arms in their homes, but I don't think it is realistic either to have 20,000 people walking the streets of London or New York City openly carrying fully automatic machine guns.

[KittyKaiti]

Originally Posted by Suckslut

I don't have a problem with people keeping fire arms in their homes, but I don't think it is realistic either to have 20,000 people walking the streets of London or New York City openly carrying fully automatic machine guns.

WAT.... only in Somalia.

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by Suckslut

I don't have a problem with people keeping fire arms in their homes, but I don't think it is realistic either to have 20,000 people walking the streets of London or New York City openly carrying fully automatic machine guns.

It's alot more practical to open carry a pistol than a 20 something pound M240B. I don't think there are many hip holsters for crew served weapons like that...

Plus, quick reloads are a bitch with a 100 round belt, not to mention the additional weight it adds.

[KittyKaiti]

Originally Posted by The Conquistador

It's alot more practical to open carry a pistol than a 20 something pound M240B. I don't think there are many hip holsters for crew served weapons like that...

Plus, quick reloads are a bitch with a 100 round belt, not to mention the additional weight it adds.

My preferable loadout for outings would be an AR-15 in the trunk with ready-to-roll loaded 30 round magazines (unloaded gun) and maybe an extra handgun with loaded magazines ready (unloaded gun), preferably .45 ACP like a 1911. On my person would be a loaded CCW .45 ACP 1911 and one extra full magazine, a police style Taser gun open carry on thigh and a small knife hidden in a back pocket. Maybe when I'm settled out living in Florida or Nevada. In the home? LOL I'd be like a collector cuz I just love guns.

[The Conquistador]

My arsenal includes a Glock 17, AMT .380 Backup, 2 Mosin-Nagant rifles(One is an M44, the other an M38) and my trusty Mossberg. I have an AK-74 in the works but that is expected to be finished late September.

All I want next is a Saiga 12 shotgun or a Saiga .308. I like the semi-auto and familiarity with the AK platform of the Saiga 12 but I want a DMR type rifle that the Saiga .308 can provide without the expensive price tag or ammo cost usually associated with other platforms.

Recap:

AK-74: General Purpose Rifle
Saiga .308: Designated Marksman Rifle
Mosin-Nagant: Hunting/Longer range rifle
Mossberg 500 or Saiga 12: Close Quarters/Home Defense
Glock 17: Home Defense/ General purpose
AMT .380 Backup: I'm fucked because the above has failed me.

I'd like a 1911 but a good quality one (here in Cali anyways) will run you $700+. That plus the price of .45ACP is unfeasable at this point. If I do get another pistol, it will probably be a Tokarev TT-33 plus a spam can of 7.62x25. :D

[Slavetoebony]

Originally Posted by JodieTs

I never said that having guns magically stops the development of a police state.
Don't misquote me; guns scare me, so I wouldn't say that.

However, a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
{2nd amendment} Those guys seem to know more about these things that I do.

Also, take a look at Switzerland....
Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/1566715.stm
Guns are deeply rooted within Swiss culture - but the gun crime rate is so low that statistics are not even kept.

The country has a population of six million, but there are estimated to be at least two million publicly-owned firearms, including about 600,000 automatic rifles and 500,000 pistols.

I bet they don't get a lot of break-in's either....

Switzerland hasn't been invaded for 800 years. This is unique for war-torn Europe. Even during WW2 they managed to keep the Nazis and allies from violating their territory. Why? Because unlike other countries in Europe, the Swiss did not give up their right to be armed.
In modern-day Switzerland, criminals don't dare to attack people because they know their opponents are armed. Compare this to neighbouring Germany. A country of very similar culture with exactly the same mix of natives and immigrants. The only difference is that Germany enforces gun control, and the crime rate, including armed robbery, murder and rape is spiraling out of control. Guns make a safer society, that's a fact.

[Enoch Root]

Both of you appear to assume that the low crime rate is causally related to high gun ownership. Which may not be the case. That effect A (low crime) exists in a country with circumstance B (high gun ownership) does not necessarily mean that A causes B.

[ila]

Originally Posted by Slavetoebony

Switzerland hasn't been invaded for 800 years. This is unique for war-torn Europe. Even during WW2 they managed to keep the Nazis and allies from violating their territory. Why? Because unlike other countries in Europe, the Swiss did not give up their right to be armed.

Actually Switzerland's territory wasn't violated because Switzerland was a neutral country and no other country wanted to violate that neutrality. It might also be noted that the allies did in a way violate Switzerland's territory. The allies sent a stream of bombers over Switzerland enroute to bomb the monstery at Monte Cassino.

Originally Posted by Slavetoebony

In modern-day Switzerland, criminals don't dare to attack people because they know their opponents are armed. Compare this to neighbouring Germany. A country of very similar culture with exactly the same mix of natives and immigrants. The only difference is that Germany enforces gun control, and the crime rate, including armed robbery, murder and rape is spiraling out of control. Guns make a safer society, that's a fact.

One of the main reasons that there are weapons in Swiss homes is because the army is made up mostly of conscripts. These conscripts remain in the army even after their compulsory service in uniform ends and because they are still in the army they are required to keep their personal weapon at home.

[smc]

What kept Switzerland out of the war was the willingness of the Swiss banking capitalists to work with anyone who needed a safe haven for whatever, be it currency, art stolen from displaced persons ... you name it. The fact that the Swiss would work any side of the fence made all the difference in the world. Every side needed its "bankers."

It had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with arms.