Middle East

[smc]

Originally Posted by ila

The arrogance of the US president is absolutely galling to me. How dare he tell Mubarak to step down. How would Obama like it if a politician from another country phoned him and told him to step down?

(And yes, I know Mubarak has already stepped down.)

Originally Posted by ila

No, I am not being sarcastic. Egypt's internal affairs are for Egyptians to solve and not for politicians from other countries telling the leader of Egypt what he should or should not do, especially since advice was not solicited.

Obama should sort out his own country and problems before spouting off about what other countries and leaders should do. It's sheer bloody arrogance to for one to stick his nose into the affairs of another country.

I agree with you, ila, that the United States should keep its nose out of the affairs of other countries. However, Egypt has been a "client state" of the United States for three decades. The Egyptian government and military are bought and paid for by the United States. In a sense, isn't Obama simply requesting the resignation of an employee of the United States, for cause? I mean that with seriousness.

Now, when the United States blockades a country and demands its leader go, as with Cuba, or intervenes via the CIA to overthrow an elected president, as in Chile, or ... any number of other actions ... I think that's even worse.

I'm not defending Obama, but simply pointing to the reality of the boss-employee relationship.

[ila]

Originally Posted by smc

I agree with you, ila, that the United States should keep its nose out of the affairs of other countries. However, Egypt has been a "client state" of the United States for three decades. The Egyptian government and military are bought and paid for by the United States. In a sense, isn't Obama simply requesting the resignation of an employee of the United States, for cause? I mean that with seriousness.
Now, when the United States blockades a country and demands its leader go, as with Cuba, or intervenes via the CIA to overthrow an elected president, as in Chile, or ... any number of other actions ... I think that's even worse.

I'm not defending Obama, but simply pointing to the reality of the boss-employee relationship.

The US did not buy the government and military of Egypt. The US paid bribe money to Egypt to maintain friendly relations with Israel. Egypt was at one time a regional leader and as such the US policy was to find an Arab country that would be friendly towards the US. It was also a chance to lure away a country that was on friendly terms and in fact under the influence of the Soviet Union. To describe the US-Egypt relationship as an employer-employee relationship is wrong.

[smc]

Originally Posted by ila

The US did not buy the government and military of Egypt. The US paid bribe money to Egypt to maintain friendly relations with Israel. Egypt was at one time a regional leader and as such the US policy was to find an Arab country that would be friendly towards the US. It was also a chance to lure away a country that was on friendly terms and in fact under the influence of the Soviet Union. To describe the US-Egypt relationship as an employer-employee relationship is wrong.

You are correct, ila, but so am I. It is not as simple as I expressed it, nor as simple as did you. The truth lies in a combination of the two. At first, "luring" was the strategy. But once the bait was set, I think it became something very different. By the way, every leader of the Egyptian military was trained at a U.S. service academy. The United States provides all the military hardware for Egypt.

The more important point in my post was about what constitutes interference in the internal affairs of another country. For the United States, the methods are myriad.

[randolph]

Prior to WWII we were strongly isolationist as a country. the attack in Pearl Harbor changed that. As the war concluded it became obvious that the Soviet Union was becoming a threat to Western countries. Some of our generals proposed war to destroy that threat.
As an alternative, John Foster Dulles, Eisenhower's Sec. of State established the "containment" plan to surround the Soviet Union with military bases in countries friendly to us. This was the beginning of the cold war. We now have military bases in over fifty countries. We quickly realized this policy was an excellent way to make those countries dependent on military equipment and training. It also facilitated control over their economies that favored American companies. So we have economic tentacles around the world. The Soviet empire was contained but more importantly, the US empire controlled the world economically.
I am sure SMC can point out historically, that we treat out client states rather harshly if they don't toe the line and favor our corporate interests. The banana trade is a classic example. Destruction of any government that doesn't conform to our economic policies has been routine policy.
The revolution in Egypt is bound to have major effect on our policies. It demonstrates the hypocrisy of our words. And the fragility of our client states. It's about time we really support Democracy not just empty rhetoric.

[randolph]

Any of you guys remember this?

Most Baby Boomers probably remember a song that captured the widespread, out-of-control feelings that for many defined the Sixties. The anthem was about the nuclear threat hanging over the world (then as now):

Merry Minuet

They're rioting in Africa (whistling)
They're starving in Spain (whistling)
There's hurricanes in Flo-ri-da (whistling)
And Texas needs rain
The whole world is festering with unhappy souls
The French hate the Germans, the Germans hate the Poles
Italians hate Yugoslavs, South Africans hate the Dutch
AND I DON'T LIKE ANYBODY VERY MUCH!!
But we can be tranquil and thankful and proud
For man's been endowed with a mushroom-shaped cloud
And we know for certain that some lovely day Someone will set the spark off
AND WE WILL ALL BE BLOWN AWAY!!
They're rioting in Africa (whistling)
There's strife in Iran
What nature doesn't so to us
Will be done by our fellow "man"
Originally written by Broadway lyricist Sheldon Harnick, who also wrote Fiddler on the Roof and Fiorello!, She Loves Me with composer Jerry Bock. This satire was introduced by Orson Bean in the 1953 revue John Murray Anderson 's Almanac.

... by the Kingston Trio in a live performance recorded for their first in-concert album From the Hungry i LP 1959

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

Prior to WWII we were strongly isolationist as a country. the attack in Pearl Harbor changed that. As the war concluded it became obvious that the Soviet Union was becoming a threat to Western countries. Some of our generals proposed war to destroy that threat.
As an alternative, John Foster Dulles, Eisenhower's Sec. of State established the "containment" plan to surround the Soviet Union with military bases in countries friendly to us. This was the beginning of the cold war. We now have military bases in over fifty countries.

I take it you are not for this policy? Then would you have supported the other alternative - war with the Soviet Union? Or to just ignore the problem?

Originally Posted by randolph

The revolution in Egypt is bound to have major effect on our policies. It demonstrates the hypocrisy of our words. And the fragility of our client states. It's about time we really support Democracy not just empty rhetoric.

For now the revolution in Egypt has brought in military rule. Their other alternative is the Muslim Brotherhood. I doubt either option is a democracy. Remember the Lesson of Barack: Change isn't always good.

If the protests in Libya succeed they will almost certainly change their government for the better.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

I take it you are not for this policy? Then would you have supported the other alternative - war with the Soviet Union? Or to just ignore the problem?

For now the revolution in Egypt has brought in military rule. Their other alternative is the Muslim Brotherhood. I doubt either option is a democracy. Remember the Lesson of Barack: Change isn't always good.

If the protests in Libya succeed they will almost certainly change their government for the better.

We shoulda nuked them when we had the chance (not really). The containment worked and set the stage for the cold war. Was there an alternative? With Stalin in power, I doubt it. Russia was held together with brute force and massive insane purges of millions of Russians. Also, paranoia regarding the U.S.

We are entering a period of extreme uncertainty. Africa and the Middle East are coming unglued. People want freedom and equal rights. Can they get it or will one despot be replaced with another? It depends a lot on whether leaders emerge from the mob. The uprisings seem to consist primarily young people that are savvy on communicating and want a secular democratic government, i.e. a western style government. They are not a bunch of religious fanatics(thank God). Military rule may provide temporary control and stability. However, it is very tempting for generals to hang on to power. It is essential that there is joint civilian military leadership during the transition to full civilian leadership.
The critical question is the Western democracies are up to the task of helping these countries make the transition? History is not promising in this regard.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

We shoulda nuked them when we had the chance (not really). The containment worked and set the stage for the cold war. Was there an alternative? With Stalin in power, I doubt it. Russia was held together with brute force and massive insane purges of millions of Russians. Also, paranoia regarding the U.S.

Well you go on and on about the "military industrial complex" and here you're saying there wasn't really any other way.

[franalexes]

Originally Posted by randolph

We shoulda nuked them when we had the chance (not really). The containment worked and set the stage for the cold war. Was there an alternative? With Stalin in power, I doubt it. Russia was held together with brute force and massive insane purges of millions of Russians. Also, paranoia regarding the U.S.

.

Hindsight is always 20-20. I'm so pleased that six months ago Hillary said the mis-east countries were so stable.
Whatever comes from the mid-east, it will not be to our favor.