Immigration law

[smc]

Originally Posted by ila

I disagree that people commit crimes because they are poor. I grew up very poor. I didn't nor did any family members commit crimes. Rather crimes are committed because of free will. A person can choose to be law abiding or choose to be a criminal.

There is an almost irrefutable link between poverty and crime. It has been studied and so concluded by governments and academics across the political spectrum and in every part of the world.

That said, ila's point is well taken. Of course, a person "can choose to be law abiding or choose to be a criminal." But simplistic notions of "crime" and "criminal" serve no good purpose except to allow people to make grand pronouncements -- truisms, if you will -- such as that of ila, for whom I have the greatest respect. Let me explain.

There is a significant difference between, say, the man who steals some baby formula from the market for his infant at home because he has no job, no money, and no immediate prospects to reverse the situation, and the man who engages in a criminal enterprise with others to, say, extort the market from which the first man has stolen (such as the Mafia demanding "protection money" from the shopkeeper). I am not excusing the first man, nor saying that his theft is not a crime, but how are we to solve the big problems of society if we offer simplistic observations that reflect only our own experiences and fail to account for the complexities of the broader world.

Like ila, I grew up relatively poor. My family was fortunate in that there were friends and an extended family beyond my mother and father who helped out, but I know plenty of people who did not have these "safety nets." In the United States, most poor people have no safety net. The research suggests that the number of U.S. families that are one paycheck away from homelessness or desititution is staggering. In that context, and acknowledging free will, is it any wonder that a poor person might resort to a crime for survival. Again, I don't excuse it, but I do encourage all to note the difference between crimes and criminals.

[ila]

Originally Posted by smc

There is an almost irrefutable link between poverty and crime. It has been studied and so concluded by governments and academics across the political spectrum and in every part of the world.

That said, ila's point is well taken. Of course, a person "can choose to be law abiding or choose to be a criminal." But simplistic notions of "crime" and "criminal" serve no good purpose except to allow people to make grand pronouncements -- truisms, if you will -- such as that of ila, for whom I have the greatest respect. Let me explain.

There is a significant difference between, say, the man who steals some baby formula from the market for his infant at home because he has no job, no money, and no immediate prospects to reverse the situation, and the man who engages in a criminal enterprise with others to, say, extort the market from which the first man has stolen (such as the Mafia demanding "protection money" from the shopkeeper). I am not excusing the first man, nor saying that his theft is not a crime, but how are we to solve the big problems of society if we offer simplistic observations that reflect only our own experiences and fail to account for the complexities of the broader world.

Like ila, I grew up relatively poor. My family was fortunate in that there were friends and an extended family beyond my mother and father who helped out, but I know plenty of people who did not have these "safety nets." In the United States, most poor people have no safety net. The research suggests that the number of U.S. families that are one paycheck away from homelessness or desititution is staggering. In that context, and acknowledging free will, is it any wonder that a poor person might resort to a crime for survival. Again, I don't excuse it, but I do encourage all to note the difference between crimes and criminals.

I base my statement not just on my own experience, but from what I have seen. When I was young most of my friends were considered poor or at least low income. None of my friends turned to crime. We did, however, turn out to be independant, self reliant, and hardworking.

I have met many poor people in my travels and the majority did not turn to crime to survive. Naturally there are those that have turned to crime. I would say it's sloth that causes a person to turn to crime rather than being poor.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by ila

I base my statement not just on my own experience, but from what I have seen. When I was young most of my friends were considered poor or at least low income. None of my friends turned to crime. We did, however, turn out to be independant, self reliant, and hardworking.

I have met many poor people in my travels and the majority did not turn to crime to survive. Naturally there are those that have turned to crime. I would say it's sloth that causes a person to turn to crime rather than being poor.

So far this discussion has focused on illegals, poor and crime. As it has moved away from illegals, I suggest that the most massive horrendous crimes in this country are committed by well educated white men on Wall Street and in Washington. Madoff among many others, Goldman, etc.
Greedy money grubbers rule this country and wealth continues to shift from the middle class to the ultra rich.
I was poopood in a previous post (Obama thread) that Obama was really not a socialist but a corporate suporter, just look what has happened. Who has been bailed out at our expense? The criminals are still in power.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by ila

I base my statement not just on my own experience, but from what I have seen. When I was young most of my friends were considered poor or at least low income. None of my friends turned to crime. We did, however, turn out to be independant, self reliant, and hardworking.

I have met many poor people in my travels and the majority did not turn to crime to survive. Naturally there are those that have turned to crime. I would say it's sloth that causes a person to turn to crime rather than being poor.

I think it's the culture. Some cultures will teach that someone else is to blame for their predicament and that it's ok to do whatever is necessary to even the score and balance things out. Ila, it sounds like the culture you're from relies more on their selves to create their own destiny, which I find much more admirable.... unless of course you're a jew and hezbolah is lobbing rockets at you and then you might have a very good reason to believe that another group of people is to blame for your misery.

[smc]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

I think it's the culture. Some cultures will teach that someone else is to blame for their predicament and that it's ok to do whatever is necessary to even the score and balance things out. Ila, it sounds like the culture you're from relies more on their selves to create their own destiny, which I find much more admirable.... unless of course you're a jew and hezbolah is lobbing rockets at you and then you might have a very good reason to believe that another group of people is to blame for your misery.

I think this post requires some explanation, Tracy.

Please define "culture" as you mean it here.

Please clarify your point about Jews and Hezbollah. And I would advise strongly that you make a distinction between "Jews" and "Israelis" or, more accurately, "Zionists." Not all Jews are Zionists.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by ila

I base my statement not just on my own experience, but from what I have seen. When I was young most of my friends were considered poor or at least low income. None of my friends turned to crime. We did, however, turn out to be independant, self reliant, and hardworking.

I have met many poor people in my travels and the majority did not turn to crime to survive. Naturally there are those that have turned to crime. I would say it's sloth that causes a person to turn to crime rather than being poor.

I have often noticed that very conservative people tend to equate "sloth" and lazyness as causing a person to turn to crime. Actually, I think there are basically two types of criminals, the ones that get caught and the ones that don't. The IQ of prison inmates is around 80, they are pretty stupid so they get caught. The bright ones are on Wall Street. Criminals are people that have no respect for laws and are willing to take much higher risks than the rest of us.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

I have often noticed that very conservative people tend to equate "sloth" and lazyness as causing a person to turn to crime. Actually, I think there are basically two types of criminals, the ones that get caught and the ones that don't.

Back to the subject of the thread. The Arizona law has police officers checking the citizenship of law breakers who exhibit signs of also being illegal aliens (such as driving without a valid drivers license among other things). These would already be law breakers, and if it turns out they are also illegal aliens they are by definition breaking even more laws. Regardless of what motivated them to breaking laws, what's wrong with booting them out of the country?

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Back to the subject of the thread. The Arizona law has police officers checking the citizenship of law breakers who exhibit signs of also being illegal aliens (such as driving without a valid drivers license among other things). These would already be law breakers, and if it turns out they are also illegal aliens they are by definition breaking even more laws. Regardless of what motivated them to breaking laws, what's wrong with booting them out of the country?

We have every right to boot them out. We need to figure out how to discourage them from coming here in the first place. A start would be to revise NAFTA so that peasant farmers in Mexico and Central America can make a decent living on their small farms. ADM and other big US subsidized farming corporations now flood NAFTA countries with cheap grains and powdered milk putting local farmers and dairies out of business.

[GRH]

Originally Posted by randolph

We have every right to boot them out. We need to figure out how to discourage them from coming here in the first place. A start would be to revise NAFTA so that peasant farmers in Mexico and Central America can make a decent living on their small farms. ADM and other big US subsidized farming corporations now flood NAFTA countries with cheap grains and powdered milk putting local farmers and dairies out of business.

That's exactly the point I made earlier in the thread. People often just assume that the grass is greener in America, but it is only because NAFTA and agricultural subsidies have destroyed the way of life of indigenous farmers. Modifying NAFTA and getting rid of subsidies would be a start in the right direction.

But what do we do with the millions of illegals already here? I propose we make it impossible for them to find gainful work by imposing such harsh penalties upon businesses that might hire them, that no business dares hire illegals. Further, those that perpetrate the trade of illegal/fake papers should be given prison sentences just shy of the death penalty.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by GRH

That's exactly the point I made earlier in the thread. People often just assume that the grass is greener in America, but it is only because NAFTA and agricultural subsidies have destroyed the way of life of indigenous farmers. Modifying NAFTA and getting rid of subsidies would be a start in the right direction.

But what do we do with the millions of illegals already here? I propose we make it impossible for them to find gainful work by imposing such harsh penalties upon businesses that might hire them, that no business dares hire illegals. Further, those that perpetrate the trade of illegal/fake papers should be given prison sentences just shy of the death penalty.

I wonder why our politicians don't seem to recognize the fundamental issues involved in this immigration problem.
Well I suppose if we legalized drugs they could go back to their farms and grow the stuff that many in this country crave.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by GRH

But what do we do with the millions of illegals already here? I propose we make it impossible for them to find gainful work by imposing such harsh penalties upon businesses that might hire them, that no business dares hire illegals.

That's what the courts have said is legal. Obama wants the supreme court to rule that it's illegal though. What are his intentions? If we were to judge him (and several other politicians) based on his actions we would have to conclude that he wants this country to be crawling with illegals.