Immigration law

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by smc

Racism is about more than a "superiority of ability." It is belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities, and that racial differences produce some inherent superiority or inferiority of particular races. Hence, drawing a link between race and crime so generally is a form of racism.

No. It is simply stating that there is a higher propensity for crime from certain immigrant groups and more often than not, these groups fail to assimilate into the local culture. Is it any wonder that there are less occurences of violence from legal immigrants than illegals and why legal immigrants are pissed at illegals for ruining things for them? Legal immigrants(Like me) adapt to the local customs and cultures and abide by the laws of the land and cultural norms. Those who don't, tend to bring their problems with them and just perpetuate the cycle. Is it racist? No. It is just a fact of the disparity between legal and illegal immigrants.

You are correct that it is Mexicans that are perpetrating the crimes to which you refer. Let me use an analogy to make my point, though, and forgive me for its imperfection. I think the point will still come across. If the government decided that Wall Street bankers such as Lloyd Bankfein had committed heinous crimes by destroying the economy and that as a group the perpetrators of such crimes need to be rounded up so that they cannot do so anymore, would you support New York City giving police the right to stop anyone who looks Jewish and is wearing a very expensive suit? Of course not. The problem with the law in Arizona is two-fold. The first is that an immigration law is not the way to deal with this criminal behavior by drug cartels. The second is that if your explanation is the logic behind the law, then it is based on the concept of collective guilt of all "Mexicans."

This law is the exact thing that will help Arizonans. It simply reasserts and reinforces the current laws on illegal immigration in the book. The local PD are now acting as a suppliment to the Border Patrol and Customs. The more people you have patrolling an area and the tougher the enforcement, the less the likelyhood of occurence. The bill does NOT give the police the right to stop anyone that "looks" like they might by an illegal alien.

I don't know if you've read the bill, but it clearly states that a person has to have legal contact with a police officer first. If you get pulled over for rolling a stop sign, stopped for loitering or get arrested, they are going to check your ID and verify whether or not you are here legally. What you are repeating is the bullshit spouted by idiots. Also, if you have a *valid* driver's license you are assumed to be here legally. So let me see here, if you get a traffic stop, the cops are now going to call in your driver's license to see if you have warrants, are wanted or are in the country illegally?

There is no "collective guilt" in my reasoning. The cartels come over here and kill US citizens. These people are in fear for their life and trying to paint this as xenophobia is ludicrous. People are tired of the crap and are standing against the crimes perpetrated by these bastards and guess what? It is working!http://www.azcentral.com/community/p...w-schools.html

You think that our immigration policy is bad, you should see Mexicos stance on illegal immigration. http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/lillpop022707.htm And from what I have heard from El Salvadorian and Guatemalan immigrants, their immigration officials are not as nice as ours and more often than not either beat or shoot illegal immigrants coming in through Mexico.

I do not believe that anyone seriously believes this law is a way to stop the drug cartels. I do believe that the proponents of the law do believe that all Mexicans (including Mexican-Americans) are guilty of something: not being white, and becoming a larger part of the population than whites. People are terrified that "their America" is disappearing, and the Arizona law is just one of their reactionary responses.

Ahhhhh, the old "white guilt" defense. No cigar this time buddy. Jan Brewer sent letters to Lord Zero stating her concerns and requesting support for the Border agents. Here it is: http://www.azcentral.com/news/electi...bama07-ON.html

I think this law has to do with concern and safety for the public rather than bigotry.

[smc]

Postman, I'm glad we can have a reasoned discourse about this, where we have profound disagreements -- even on the definition of terms -- without resorting to personal attacks. It's quite a step up from the crap that goes for discussion on some other parts of this site, and which I, as a moderator, often have to deal with in a different sort of way.

So, that being said, I will treat your "white guilt" comment as a reference to others.

I stand by my definition of racism. I stand by my analysis of the law, which I have read. To believe that there will be none of the kinds of police actions that you say the law does not allow is, in my view, tremendously naive about the history of how the forces of authority deal with minorities when we are on the cusp of historic changes in how society is ordered.

I also stand by my use of the word "reactionary" in this context. Too often this word is misused to mean "right-wing." I don't mean it that way. Reaction is a tendency to revert to a former state. In this case, those who will one day (sooner rather than later) become the minority rather than maintain their majority status are reacting. There is no doubt in my mind.

I have yet to find a credible, unbiased analysis of this law that suggests it is the way to fight the cartels.

I have pretty much said everything I have to say on this issue, but I will continue to point out racism when I see it, so I may post again. And by that, I am not assigning racism to you, Postman. Just to be clear ...

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by smc

Postman, I'm glad we can have a reasoned discourse about this, where we have profound disagreements -- even on the definition of terms -- without resorting to personal attacks. It's quite a step up from the crap that goes for discussion on some other parts of this site, and which I, as a moderator, often have to deal with in a different sort of way.

So, that being said, I will treat your "white guilt" comment as a reference to others.

I stand by my definition of racism. I stand by my analysis of the law, which I have read. To believe that there will be none of the kinds of police actions that you say the law does not allow is, in my view, tremendously naive about the history of how the forces of authority deal with minorities when we are on the cusp of historic changes in how society is ordered.

I also stand by my use of the word "reactionary" in this context. Too often this word is misused to mean "right-wing." I don't mean it that way. Reaction is a tendency to revert to a former state. In this case, those who will one day (sooner rather than later) become the minority rather than maintain their majority status are reacting. There is no doubt in my mind.

I have yet to find a credible, unbiased analysis of this law that suggests it is the way to fight the cartels.

I have pretty much said everything I have to say on this issue, but I will continue to point out racism when I see it, so I may post again. And by that, I am not assigning racism to you, Postman. Just to be clear ...

Well the most effective way to fight the cartels would to be to take the fight to them. Unfortunately, that will never happen as the Mexican Gov. is in collusion with the cartels as well as other South American governments and most of our government officials are candyasses anyways. Neither of them have any interests in fighting the cartels as they have major influence in the region and it is too good of a gravy train to let go of.

This law is not about fighting the cartels or racial majority/minority fears. It is about the public safety of the citizens of Arizona. The fact of the matter is that people are being killed by illegal immigrants and nothing is being done about it. The actions AZ has taken are designed with its citizens in mind and yet so many Americans are quick to condemn them. The victims are blamed and the criminals are heralded. That is not justice. It may not be the best course of action but it is necessary.

[Mel Asher]

Gentlemen

You are going from the General to the Particular in your assertions, although I cannot claim to be entirely General in my enquiry about possible links between immigration and criminal activity in countries other than the UK.

It is common in the UK for the PC brigade ( usually in National or Local Government ) to dismiss concerns over law and order involving one or more non-Caucasian social groups with an immediate accusation of Racism - a convenient and neat way of not having to address the concerns of a lot of joe-citizens. To see Racism in every criticism involving a mixed-race population is to be an obsessive witch-finder. Not that I am implying that this is illustrated in this thread, but PC and ' racism ' are fertile areas for the control of others by the
' Thought Police '.

Reading this thread I must admit that I am getting a little more understanding of some of the social concerns of North America, and I welcome this.

Meanwhile I shall settle down to reading Mein Kampf later when I log off this forum. ( Only joking, honestly - my gallows humour coming through to the fore ! )
and keep the thread rolling.

[randolph]

We seem to be dealing with several issues here and getting them confused.
1-The vicious drug cartels are the result of the demand for illegal drugs in this country. This is a rerun of the mobs in the 1920s fighting over the illegal alcohol trade. Take the profit out of drugs and the cartels would disappear.
2- We have a long history of racism as the blacks know full well. We also hated the Irish, Jews, Polish, German and all the other later immigrants that came to this country. At the time, they were blamed for all or our troubles and were considered lawless and stupid. We also took over the Indians land and kept Mexicans as second class citizens.
3- I strongly suspect that if you look at the non drug related crime in Arizona or any other state, that Hispanics, legal or illegal, do not contribute a greater amount of crime than any other part of society. They are being made scapegoats because they are easily targeted by aspiring politicians who prefer to avoid the real issues confronting our society.

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by randolph

We seem to be dealing with several issues here and getting them confused.
1-The vicious drug cartels are the result of the demand for illegal drugs in this country. This is a rerun of the mobs in the 1920s fighting over the illegal alcohol trade. Take the profit out of drugs and the cartels would disappear.

If you legalize drugs do you think the cartels are just going to go away? Are they going to go register for a business license? Are they going to let Pfizer set up facilities to start providing cocaine to store fronts? Or is it more likely that they are going illegally take over a now legal industry? The last time I checked, drug cartels don't really go for whole free market capitalism model of multiple suppliers selling a product and competing on price, quality and other factors. They operate more on the "Hey that guy is dealing coke in our territory, let's go kill him and his family" model. The whole "legalize the problem to make the problem go away" is defective thinking that is driving this immigration debate in the first place.

2- We have a long history of racism as the blacks know full well. We also hated the Irish, Jews, Polish, German and all the other later immigrants that came to this country. At the time, they were blamed for all or our troubles and were considered lawless and stupid. We also took over the Indians land and kept Mexicans as second class citizens.

Humans in general have had a long history of racial and ethnic predjudice. Some non-American examples include: Mexicans hate blacks, El Salvadorians and Puerto Ricans, the Brits hate the Irish, the Serbs hate the Albanians, the Africans hate Afrikaaners, the Vietnamese hate Filipinos, the Samoans hate the Tongans, the Hutu Africans hate the Tutsie Africans, the Arabs hate the Jews, the ancient Greeks hated the Persians, the Germans hated the Jews, the Berbers hated the Ethiopians and the list goes on and on of all the races and ethnicities who hated each other. To deny this and only focus on one demographic that suits an arguement is intellectually dishonest.

3- I strongly suspect that if you look at the non drug related crime in Arizona or any other state, that Hispanics, legal or illegal, do not contribute a greater amount of crime than any other part of society. They are being made scapegoats because they are easily targeted by aspiring politicians who prefer to avoid the real issues confronting our society.

Politicians always pander to "minorities" to curry their favor and gain their vote. This is nothing new. The problem is the murder of American civilians on American soil. To say that this is just a cover of their "inherent racism" also ignores the main fact that there are people actually getting killed over there at the hand of these cartel members.