Self Defense

[Mel Asher]

Originally Posted by Rachel

He bravely ran away He bravely ran away. When danger reared it's ugly head he turned his tail and bravely fled Brave, brave Sir Robin

Brits now seem noted for their cynicism, so indeed the popularity of that intrepid band of burlesque Brits Monty Python. But how does a cynic respond to very-real threat ? Not very commendably or bravely, I would imagine. But bravery comes in various guises, which was perhaps the theme behind my earlier post. It takes a peculiar sort of bravery to walk away from a threat ( if indeed any opening is available ), when the instinct is to kick, punch, stab or shoot one's way out of trouble.

That said, this thread seems to be mainly about Gun enthusiasts promoting the benefits and / or enjoyment of using guns. The reality is that complete reliance upon only one such a set of skills, instaed of having a menu of skills upon which to draw, might offer security only from an extreme emergency situation, not from the problems which might develop from precipitous action.
I feel that concentrating exclusively on firearms solutions is rather too far removed from the thread originator's first post.

Meantime I will withdraw and hide trembling in my dojo, leaving my rusting rifle at home !

Enjoy the club.

[randolph]

Is it better to be a live coward or dead hero?

[Mel Asher]

Originally Posted by randolph

Is it better to be a live coward or dead hero?

Are those the only permissible combinations ? Dead Coward seems quite likely too - how likely, depends on how resourceful. Live Hero would by definition be pretty resourceful. It would mean he beat the odds and got accolades for it too. It all depends on how you choose to stack the deck !

[The Conquistador]

This is my backup weapon should my rifle poop out on me; 3 feet of hard wood in the form of a riot baton. AKA: Hippie shampoo (works best when applied to head)

[WudLuv2try]

Originally Posted by Mel Asher

Are those the only permissible combinations ? Dead Coward seems quite likely too - how likely, depends on how resourceful. Live Hero would by definition be pretty resourceful. It would mean he beat the odds and got accolades for it too. It all depends on how you choose to stack the deck !

Amen.

I think you know what you're talking about.

[Be_my_nude]

This seems to be a very macho thread, but I suppose it's to be expected with all you testosterone-loaded guys doing a centre-stage. I think it's all about a state of mind. Like sexual assault, the weakest and seeming-weakest are most likely to be the first to be attacked. This doesn't mean that I should walk around with a bowie knife strapped to my hip. It means that if my body-language is confident and self-assured, a would-be assailant is more likely to move on and pick on someone else. This does not mean I do not carry a surprise with me in case of being cornered. I certainly will if I go into parts of a city which I do not know very well. But I usually check carefully so as not to drift into danger unprepared. So far I've only run into trouble once, and I think he was more scared than I was !

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by Be_my_nude

I think it's all about a state of mind.

This is correct. Situational awareness can help you avoid alot of problems before you even get into them. As the Russian proverb goes,"The bear who spots the trap cannot be caught".

The mind is the most dangerous weapon; everything else is just a tool, an extension of your body.

AngryPostman is right about "situational awareness." If we are caught off-guard we may have lost the fight before it even begins. The following five principles come from the Defend University website. While taken specifically from their "rape prevention" course--I think it is sound advice for anyone.

1. Stay aware of people in your surroundings. Not surprisingly, criminals exhibit predatory behavior in preparing to attack. They will try to pick a casual location to look for their prey. They will look at their intended victim far more and for longer periods of time than social norms. They will move when the prey moves. They will stop and look around for witnesses. They will often make several passes by the prey in a sort of 'dry run', seeing if the victim will react or to get a sense of how the attack might work. Pay attention! Who is looking at you? Has the same person or car passed by you twice? Does someone appear to be moving with you?

2. Stay with people, go to people. Do not ever let yourself be taken somewhere. Cops call it the "secondary crime scene" and most of the time it will be where your worst nightmare resides. If you are approached in a public place do not get in a vehicle with him. Do not walk around the building to the alley -- STAY where others can see you. His worst fear is the fear of getting caught, so you should drop to the ground if you need to in order to prevent him from carrying you away. On the other hand, if you are in your house or another location that is private, you need to GO to people. His worst fear is the fear of getting caught -- run out the door to a neighbor’s. Crawl out a window onto the roof. Drive your car up to a diner or convenience store. Go where there are lights and others.

3. Keep a barrier between you and the bad guy. Use a barrier to block him or use distance to gain time. Keep your doors locked. Stay in your car. Force him to get through a barrier before he can get to you. Use a barrier of pepper spray. The more difficult you make it, the more time it takes him and that means he might be discovered.

4. Attract attention. The first thing he will say to you is "don't scream or I'll kill you". He's telling you exactly what will ruin his plan. Go ahead, ruin his plan -- create a disturbance, scream, throw things, blow the horn. If you think you should yell "fire" go right ahead. You can't count on others coming to your aid, but you want to appeal to his fear of getting caught and make him think that someone could hear you and be coming.

5. Use your strongest weapons against his weakest targets. His weakest targets are those that are most valuable, yet ironically, cannot be entirely strengthened. His eyes, throat, groin and knees are your primary targets. Your secondary targets are his face and his abdomen. Strong weapons that you can employ are your kicks using the bottom of your feet, your elbows, hammerfists and palm heel strikes.

[alphanumeric]

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

This is correct. Situational awareness can help you avoid alot of problems before you even get into them. As the Russian proverb goes,"The bear who spots the trap cannot be caught".

The mind is the most dangerous weapon; everything else is just a tool, an extension of your body.

Agreed if there was ever a horrible example of not practicing situational awareness it was those unfortunate officers in Washington state.

[DSL]

No i don't live in a shit-hole actually its a pretty quiet area and building too
i have moved here since july 15th and been quiet since other then a couple
of house breaks down the street from me and a stabbing but thats about it.
but my building does have security cams dead bolts outside entry door and
my apartment door 3 locks.

[Tread]

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

If that were true, more troops would use a pistol for clearing rooms instead of a shotgun. In CQB, the shotgun is king. Pistols are generally used in areas where it is not practical to to have a larger weapon (i.e. concealed carry purposes, inside a vehicle etc) or is used as a way to fight your way to a more powerful weapon.

I don't think the shotgun is king in CQB. It depends on the situation. I think submachine guns are more flexible and more often used by special units in CQB. But that has not much to do with home defence.

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

True, but you forget that 1 shell of 000 buckshot contains 10 pellets roughly 9mm in diameter. That means 1 shell of 12 gauge 000 buck has the same capacity as 1 magazine of 9mm Parabellum. You will have more hits on target vs. rounds fired with a shotgun than a pistol.

... ...
Handguns take considerable amount training to hit something accurately compared to a shotgun or rifle. Pistols have less stopping power unless you are comparing the ammo to birdshot which does not penetrate deep and has a large spread. The spread of the shot can be changed by the amount of choke the shotgun has; the tighter the choke, the tighter your spread will be. At longer distances even with the spread, more pellets of buck will hit a target vs. pistol rounds. If I remember correctly (which I don't) the spread after 20 ft. begins to open up 1 inch every 6ft-10ft depending on the load and choke.

If you are firing slugs from a shotgun, they will reach out and touch someone accurately at 100+ meters(Accuracy tapers off at around 125-150 meters.) which is alot greater than the pistols 25-50 meter range.

Again, it all depends on operator preference. Someone may not like the size of a shotgun and choose a pistol, another person may not hit accurately with a pistol but can hit better with a shotgun or a carbine. It all depends on what you are comfortable with. If you are comfortable with a pistol, get a pistol. If you are comfortable with a shotgun, get a shotgun and so on and so forth.

If you miss one time, 10 pellets miss, or 10 pellets can't focus on more than one target. There is still a capacity advantage. 1 buckshot has not the same energy than a magazine 9mm.
It can't be much more difficult to hit a human sized target with a pistol than a shotgun at max. Room distances.
In a defence situation you don't know how much attack, for a quick reaction at a close combat I see more advantages for a pistol than a shotgun, plus it can be carried for self defence if it is allowed (I still think a gun is not a good solution).

My question still is why some have a gun, and buy a shotgun or rifle extra for home defence (not collecting or sport).

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by Tread

My question still is why some have a gun, and buy a shotgun or rifle extra for home defence (not collecting or sport).

More power. Which would you rather have to defend yourself? A 1/4" wooden dowel or a Louisville Slugger?

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by Tread

It can't be much more difficult to hit a human sized target with a pistol than a shotgun at max. Room distances.

It all depends on the operator.