Fakes & Fakes Threads Not Allowed

[Bionca]

Originally Posted by EdwardSinclair

Then Bionca's post had me confused. Although I can clearly see how this offends you, I don't think an m2f trans will ever be regarded as fake. You must first understand the sexual desire that fuels such passion towards these fantasies. These are completely 2 different types of mind sets, and the sex industry knows this. To make you understand fully, I remind you of the example on how post-op m2f trans are not as marketable in the sex industry as pre-ops, not to say there isn't a market for post-ops (there is one).

Now my final thought on your posts is that sexual fantasies and desires aside, I don't think this will have any impact on the trans world. What you must understand is that the trans world is unique therefore not fake. People who really love trans will not really be interested in these "fakes", even if they find themselves curious to see, eventually they will come to realise that they've been cheated out of the real thing. Nothing fake can ever substitute the real thing! Plus there's more to a trans than just the body, our sexual orientation all starts from what we feel inside! Maybe the world would be better if we were all Intersexual (although asexual reproduction would be half the fun at least you'd have more choice).

Trans women exist in a world where our gender is routinely seen as fake. The fake pics only emphasize this by constructing trans woman as not really actual women. But real actual women can be "shemales" (and those are better cuz you know, they are still "real girls").

I think I understand the point you are trying to make with the " 2 different types of mind sets..." part, but I'm not completely sure. If you'd like to clarify or reword that I'd appreciate it, because I think you have a good point, but I don't want to mess it up.

I'm with you as far as there being more to trans than just the body. However, holding cis women up as an idealized version of a trans woman is harmful to trans women. Particularly when the site is full to the brim with photos of real actual trans women - what's missing on/ with the trans women? What is the attraction/ curiosity? Is there a message being sent or implied with the shopped pics?

Making a case for the "real thing" vs. fakes isn't really useful since a large portion of the site thinks cis (not trans) IS the "real thing" and by default implication trans is "fake".

[EdwardSinclair]

I can understand your confusion, and it also made me realise something I have overseen. You have the pre-op and the post-op, right? Now I think, and this is my personal opinion, from a sexual stand point the origin of attraction towards these two would be different.

If I met a post-op trans and we hit it off, when we had sex it would be normal, like any other couple of male and female do. On the other hand you have the pre-ops, and although she may think and feel like the post-op the penis doesn't allow her to be seen as 100% female. She may dislike this fact, or she may not really care about it, I think it depends on the person. From the exterior people may find that this difference is really what attracts them. The fact that they can be subdued and penetrated from behind, even many straight males like this. Although because they are really only attracted to females, they could never imagine a male doing this to them, some even have their girlfriends do it to them. Forgive me if I have failed to explain this once again, but this is what I meant in relation to the sexual interest involved.

Now if it were more than just fantasizing, if it were something more emotional it would transcend what you look like on the exterior. I presume in the world of fantasy you can be forgiven for being somewhat shallow, because at that moment you don't really care how that person feels emotionally, you are more concerned with releasing that sexual tension. I would assume that is why in many forums of this type you will find that people have this reaction, they don't mean to offend, it's just the nature of the sexual urge. To maintain the satisfaction and keep your interest, you need something fresh and often bordering on disturbing.

Making a case for the "real thing" vs. fakes isn't really useful since a large portion of the site thinks cis (not trans) IS the "real thing" and by default implication trans is "fake".

Now for your last paragraph, I am in no way trying to invalidate your points, and completely understand how it makes you wonder if trans have something missing, I would too. Remember one thing though, celeb status... that's one new big factor here, you don't see many trans with huge celeb status. I could only think of Miriam Rivera perhaps, only one I watched in a show here in the U.K that run for a while that I remember, and although it did end badly, she looked fantastic. Now she was in the sex industry already so it's not hard to find pictures of her, otherwise I'm pretty sure someone would photoshop something of her! It's what this sexual urge towards celebs pornography does, when one can't find a suitable scandalous celeb pic. In giving these examples I'm trying to point out that if many trans were celebs (not the pornographic variety), and you couldn't see them naked, people would photoshop them to fulfil their sexual needs.

As for saying stating one thing as fake or another, in the end I find this relative, and perhaps it even makes things more complex. Once a trend develops, the events that are put in motion cannot be stopped. You can certainly limit it or try to prevent it from happening but it is there. It's much like, racism, or poverty, feminism, terrorism, etc. to name a few. People who like it will always find ways to indulge on it.

I don't agree with the last statement though, you have actually stated something very similar to what many females say about women in the sex industry and about men who like porn. Women who look more like a hentai cartoon, with boobs the size of Mars, and lips that could float on water! Many wives who find their husbands jack off to these women feel incompetent and wonder the same thing!! The only thing you need to remember is that fantasy differs from reality in that you are always trying to find that perfect body (it always shallow), but it stems from reality. Each trans nowadays looks more and more feminine, so much so that sometimes you can't tell them apart from females that were physically born female. Then add an audience of males that like big penises, since they can relate to how nice it feels to stroke a long hard penis, just as women can relate to how good it feels to seeing another woman feel pleasure. Hence the more feminine the trans and the bigger the penis the better the fantasy, then add celeb status and we can fool the mind (there's of course those who like extremely small penis, unsure as to why but some like it). In light of all of this if an extremely hot trans (real trans) with any resemblance to their fantasy comes along, they will bend themselves backwards and forwards for them (no joke). Cis girls are real and are here to stay (they suit different type of male and apparently some females like it too), but trans have been here way longer, nothing will happen to them... in fact trans are gaining more popularity each day, there are many males who consider themselves to be straight finding themselves attracted to trans women, and I imagine if they were gay they'd find trans women repulsive unless they were very masculine.

[EdwardSinclair]

Originally Posted by Bionca

Trans women exist in a world where our gender is routinely seen as fake. The fake pics only emphasize this by constructing trans woman as not really actual women. But real actual women can be "shemales" (and those are better cuz you know, they are still "real girls").

The problem are the two types of trans (the pre-op and post-op). If the trans is post-op most people won't even know the difference (if any), so as far as all are concerned she is a woman. The pre-op will still freak out most people in the world, because to them "he" has a penis, and in all societies penis is equated with male, hence cannot be a she. Despite her being a woman inside, you will be judged by what you look like outside always, anywhere, anytime, it's sad but it's a lesson often learnt the hard way. Real actual women could be "shemales" too if they were on their way to be f2m trans and had surgery so they had a penis (but they'd look horrible for me, maybe straight women would like them idk, I'm quite shallow perhaps), a m2f trans is a woman trying to transition her body to how a woman is supposed to be.

Sorry I didn't realise my last post was that long!

[Tread]

Originally Posted by EdwardSinclair

Then I read Tread's post and it made me realise that if I were to follow this point of view I could no longer fantasize about any one person that hasn't given me consent to fantasize about them. I would only be allowed to fantasize about people who had given me consent to fantasize about them, regardless of my urges. I suppose it would make sense from a morality point of view, but would be impractical in practice, because one would need a will of steel!!

I think you misinterpreted me. That's not my point of view.
Not all will be jubilant if someone fantasizes about them, especially if it gets visualized. But everyone fantasize from, only in mind, writing stories, making pictures, to making a movie. From romantic to pornographic. From realistic to surreal.
No one should feel hurt by a fantasy.

I have moral problems when reality gets consciously twisted, someone spreads an untrue rumour and public take this for the truth, or fake pictures are made to proof something that is not true.
And I have moral problems when real pictures, that show private incidents, get in public to badmouth someone.

[Bionca]

Edward-

Thanks for the post. I understand that celebs are a big fantasy, I understand that trans women are a big fantasy. I also get that fantasy is a completely shallow selfish thing - not saying this as a negative, it just is.

Maybe I'm over sensitive on this and shopping a cock on Angelina Jolie is just a manifestation of celeb worship and shemale desire. It feels like a parody to me and it feels like the ultimate in disrespecting of actual trans women. In an "If only 'real girls' had a cock I wouldn't feel guilty about liking these trannies" kinda way.

[EdwardSinclair]

Originally Posted by Bionca

..."If only 'real girls' had a cock I wouldn't feel guilty about liking these trannies" kinda way.

I understand what you are saying and it is true for some. Although you can't blame people for acting this way, it's how we are brought up to respond in this society, and also this state of mind doesn't remain the same in most cases.

When people are new to the world of TS, most will experience bouts of guilt, and in so doing will have to come up with excuses to keep coming back. Those of us who have been doing it for a long time, will hardly ever (if ever) need an excuse, or experience guilt!

Even though it "IS" disrespectful (fantasies are often disrespectful to someone once they are out of the closet). I totally agree with you in this respect, and lend you my support!(Reflects what I said in my very first post.) In saying that, I'm also sorry to know you feel this way, because I'm afraid you may be confronted with more of these in the future! I'm not in anyway trying to discourage you, just giving you a heads up!

Although to be honest I also have these fantasies, and if I am not allowed to have them, I would be in denial and hiding my true feelings, which is dishonest...

[Bionca]

http://laughriotgirl.wordpress.com/2.../19/that-look/

This is how that guilt looks from a trans woman's perspective.

As far as the fakes contributing to allowing the angsty guilt-filled fantasies of guys and making real life actual trans women's bodies inferior specimens of .. umm... trans women's bodies. I don't know, I'm not fond of blackface either.

[EdwardSinclair]

Bionca:
Very well written!! Kudos!!
Your blog is very interesting, keep up the good work!

Hmm, I can somewhat relate to this guy... I think I have been this guy before, well not in the context you have it there, but in a very similar way. Only the person lying next to me wasn't a trans, and I really haven't spoken to that person since. Hmm... I believe you just made me realise the ladies point of view. I'm shocked for words...

[kitty cox]

Originally Posted by Bionca

http://laughriotgirl.wordpress.com/2.../19/that-look/

This is how that guilt looks from a trans woman's perspective.

As far as the fakes contributing to allowing the angsty guilt-filled fantasies of guys and making real life actual trans women's bodies inferior specimens of .. ... trans women's bodies. I don't know, I'm not fond of blackface either.

Bionca I took a look at the blog if that same man was in bed after sex with a women for the satisfaction of his lust then that women would have a similar experience. Different but there is a correlation between the two. Especially if it had anything to do with something off beat like a strait man having a gay lover night of a man cheating on his wife with a prostitute. That's one reason that past generations felt so strongly about courtship, a long courtship. I found myself very broken some years back, and I was willing to listen to advise and take action on it. One of the things that I had trouble with was relationships and the therapist suggested that I date girls and leave sex off the table and to do this for at least two years. Like I said I was very broken and was much more willing to try the things that were suggested from that experience I found that when I thought I was falling in love, I was really falling in lust, and that I objectified woman as nothing more the sex objects and conquests. I had no idea if I even liked women. What I mean by that is what a woman really is and is not. I never got past the lust. After the climax, I had little use for them until the next time I wanted to satisfy my lust. So I would tolerate them because they were a convenient means to satisfy my lust. All the while I thought this was love. I had a roommate that I could identify as having the same confusion with lust and love. He once told me that if woman did not have pussies, we would be shooting them in the street ; that there would be bounties on their heads because the only thing they were to him was a means to satisfy his lust after the women would observe him like a dog in a room full of bitches in heat they would do like all women and get mad and he would not get any that night , now the were unlovable for him and he would fixate on his next victim.. However, every two too six weeks he was madly in love (lust)with another one.
After I did spend the two years dating half dozen women over the two years. I found that there were other things that I really loved about some women. The women that I liked the most were women that demonstrated a loving, nurturing, forgiving and accepting spirit. but I also found that there were women that had none of these qualities and were more territorial and conquest oriented, obsessive and selfish. I also have found that transsexuals have different personalities some are very defensive and even more difficult to understand than any women,Think about it and all that they have had to deal with throughout their confusing early years and then their transitional years the rejection and the hurt the loss and the uncharted days weeks and years. I do not pretend to know all they had to deal with. I can only relate as far as the inward turmoil that I have dealt with in Quit desperation. For someone to be out there for all the cruel worlds abuse is beyond my comprehension, and I believe that for all of us, it depends on the emotional baggage that haunts us from past relationships , not just sexual relationships and of course a whole host of other things comes into play as well. For a man that has been play acting that he is strictly heterosexual it will be a whole lot of things to overcome before he could give himself to the relationship in any meaningful way. Basically, he would have to out himself to all of his friends, coworkers and family and be comfortable with that before he could take the first step in the direction of a relationship with a transsexual the man that would try to have sex with a transsexual before he was ready to do all of this is just siking himself up, giving into his lust, casting caution to the wind so that he can try something that he has secretly wanted to do for a long time his lust will convince him that if it is all he hoped it will be that he would make the transition, but as soon as he satisfies his lust all his motivations is gone and the only thing that is left is fear of what he just did, and what it in tails. You know that a transsexual lifestyle is a commitment that one sets their mind to do, and I am sure it took time and a whole lot of courage. It can be no less for the promised convert, otherwise he is just kidding himself and for him its one night, and he will go into a self protection mode and do all that he can to keep what he just did in the dark, tucked back into its secret hidden place and yes if he feels threatened he will become first angrier than hostile. And if necessary violent to protect his perceived integrity. I am sure that I am not telling you anything that you don't already know. This kind of thing is but one of the things that keep people like me in the closet. There are transvestites that dress and find others that will join them but most don't and many that do live in fear of exposure or violence perpetrated against them. Let's face it any of this kind of lifestyle is much more filled with pitfalls, Sorrow and danger than the heterosexual lifestyle to expect this type of person to act any different, under these circumstances would be contrary to human nature and has little to do with what type of shemale porn he looks at.

[EdwardSinclair]

Originally Posted by Tread

I think you misinterpreted me. That's not my point of view.

Sorry Tread, that is a big misunderstanding! My fault for not making it clearer. What I meant is if I were to follow Jeane's point of view, not yours. What I actually did mean by citing your name, was to compliment your reply, because it was a very clear and a valid point, that made me realise that fantasy really is different than reality, and in my opinion a person can't be stopped from fantasizing as it does no harm to any third party. So, I agree with you there!