Self Defense

[Rachel]

In this country Mr. Tread someone somewhere used their piece to PREVENT a crime today. And yesterday it happened and will tommorow. These occurances are not reported. Happened to me twice a few years ago. Did I report it? Of course not. More then likely I would have been interrogated and treated like the criminal. This happened 15 years ago when I was younger stronger and more manly lol. In the first instance my wife and I went to a dept store to buy baby clothes for our new son. The store (Sears) had multiple entrances and we were on the far side of the building more around the back. My now ex wife was putting our son into his car seat while I was standing in front of the car smoking a cigarette. While there were cars on either side of mine when we parked, there was now a large van on one side and a pickup truck on the other. Being alert and scanning the scene I see 2 underpriveledged youths come around the corner of the building and immediately point to our running car and pick up their pace confering amongst themselves as they changed direction towards us. My wife still had her fat ass sticking out the door cutting me off from her and my son. I look around... Nobody here but us sheep or so it seemed to the two would be car jackers. As they got closer they were now out of site behind the van. I used this opportunity to draw my Ruger .357 Had it pointing right over the top of the opened car door . Told wife to hurry up. I then see the two pass the back of the van and immediately turn into the space between our car. They stopped short and excitedly when I thumbed that hammer back and they realized we were no easy victims and beat a hasty retreat. Now had I not been armed that day Mr. Tread what do you suppose might have happened to my family?

[Rachel]

The second time I was alone at a large food store in the late evening picking up a few things on my way home from work. Since it was payday I cashed my paycheck at the store(with minmum $30 purchase). Taking my one bag I notice a middle aged man standing by the front windows of the store about 20 feet from me. As I start walking out I know he's following me. My car is parked about 150 feet away maybe the tenth car down the aisle. As I'm almost to my car I'm unzipping my jacket I can hear his pace increasing. I swing my jacket back and pop the retaining strap on my holstered .22 auto. He's now about ten short feet away. He sees this and immediately turns at a 90 degree angle and makes tracks. Now at that time in my life I was into lifting weights and martial arts. Hmm a 6'2" 220 pound man is no easy mark yet this criminal was willing to risk his own neck for that 600 dollars he knew I had. Desparate men do desparate things Tread, they arent all stupid. Had I not been armed with more then my fists and feet maybe I would have been stabbed or clubbed. Or shot who knows? In both these instances my pistols prevented crimes without firing a shot.

[DSL]

Well here is a sad story but a true one as well, a coule yearsa ago
there were this couple man and women both married happily.
well any way they were upstairs in bed fast asleep one night
between the hours of 12 to 1 am suddenly the husband hears a noise
downstairs and somwe rumbling about which awakend him he get up
goes right for his service revolver a 38 spec. S&W snubnose he tells the
wife to stay calm and don't move.
finally he is standing at the top of the stairs and at the bottom of the stairs
was this black silhouette it was to dark to see who it was but by
blind instinct he pulls his weapon and fires!! down the stairs, killing who was
at the bottom. he went down to take a closer look it turned out to be his
16 year old daughter coming home late that night with her boy friend
her boy friend had just left dropping her off. he shot her right threw the chest killing her instantly
she was DOA at the scene.

which reminds me of the movie american gun if any of you saw it
that just the way it happend. but this was true they didn't charge him
with anything it was a terrible accident and she was in the wrong place at
the wrong time!.

which leave me with this all ways think twice before firing your weapon
you never know who might be at the bottom of those stairs
the farther had to be rushed to the hosiptal for shock
he turned in his revolver and promised never to pick up a gun again.

this was going back a few years but i had forgotten some of it
but i herd it happend again from another couple she was due to be married
with him and this women came home from work and she was shot accidently
by her due to be wed boy friend.

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by DSL

by
blind instinct he pulls his weapon and fires!! down the stairs, killing who was
at the bottom. he went down to take a closer look it turned out to be his
16 year old daughter

These are unfortunate incidents but could have been prevented through simple training. It doesn't cost much to go through a home defense class and you are taught proper engagement of a target and numerous other things. Even in the military, you are taught to issue a warning before you engage someone. It only takes a second to shout out,"Halt!" ,"Who goes there?" or "Identify yourself or I will fire upon you!"

Escalation Of Force training will help you to handle a situation without guns blazing. If you are going to be armed, take a class on how to properly use your weapon of choice; simple actions like learning how to properly handle a weapon and proper escalation and de-escalation of force and rules of engagement can save lives without ending them.

People need to understand that weapons handling is not like in the movies where you pick up a gun/knife/baton and suddenly you are an expert with nerves of steel. There are very real emotions that come into play such as fear and very real consequences that arise as a result of your actions. With proper training, you can overcome the stresses that might cause you to otherwise do something rash like firing without properly identifying your target.

If you choose not to properly train or go through the motions of proper weapons use, you have no business handling a weapon.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

These are unfortunate incidents but could have been prevented through simple training. It doesn't cost much to go through a home defense class and you are taught proper engagement of a target and numerous other things. Even in the military, you are taught to issue a warning before you engage someone. It only takes a second to shout out,"Halt!" ,"Who goes there?" or "Identify yourself or I will fire upon you!"

Escalation Of Force training will help you to handle a situation without guns blazing. If you are going to be armed, take a class on how to properly use your weapon of choice; simple actions like learning how to properly handle a weapon and proper escalation and de-escalation of force and rules of engagement can save lives without ending them.

People need to understand that weapons handling is not like in the movies where you pick up a gun/knife/baton and suddenly you are an expert with nerves of steel. There are very real emotions that come into play such as fear and very real consequences that arise as a result of your actions. With proper training, you can overcome the stresses that might cause you to otherwise do something rash like firing without properly identifying your target.

If you choose not to properly train or go through the motions of proper weapons use, you have no business handling a weapon.

This is all well and good, but it's not happening. No training is required to own a gun. I found it ludicrous when California required training to buy mace but not a gun.

[Tread]

Originally Posted by aw9725

I also have a 12 ga Remington 870 if anyone should break into my home as well as an AR-15.

Originally Posted by aw9725

For my home, a 12 ga works well. I have a standard Remington 870 that I got at K-Mart. I have added a pistol grip and a shorter barrel. My AR-15 would most likely go through the walls and kill the neighbors but it looks awesome!

I first thought you use the AR-15 for home defence as well. Nice to hear you don't.

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

Rifles like the AR-15 can be tailored to the operators needs and fire cartridges that have a good compromise between stopping power and recoil. That is why they are seeing an increased use in home defense.

I totally forgot the US walls that are made of paper (exaggeration like to blow away an elephant). Why use weapons that go through humans and walls for home defence. That's a risk for uninvolved people.

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

I own an M44 Mosin-Nagant and I primarily use it for target shooting and other recreational purposes, however it is also used as my home defense weapon. I don't have it just as an excuse for anything; I have it because it has a variety of uses; home defense being one of them.

If you use it primarily for sport, I don't see it as excuse. To buy a rifle, that is usually made for longer distances than handguns, for the reason of home defence sounds for me like an excuse, or a big calibre guns.

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

You have a car because it is more efficient in terms of time, distance and practical uses, correct? I own a rifle because it is more efficient compared to OC spray and tasers because of the standoff distance which doesn't require me to get in within arms distance of an assailant to use it.

The difference is: I need something to travel time efficient, and no need for a big home defence weapon, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

I behoove you to at least go to a range and shoot for a day. That way you can develop an accurate opinion of firearms.

I can't just go to a range and shoot different weapons.
Don't know what an accurate opinion of firearms should help. I'm sure I would have fun shooting some guns, I would also have fun to shoot with or drive a tank through heavy terrain, little trees or cars, I would have, and had, fun blowing things up or shooting with a bazooka. In my opinion there should be as less possibilities, that this can happen in public or home.

There are too many people who can not handle things accountably.(nearly) everyone has the right to handle loaded weapons at home, even they shoot through walls? You don't let everyone drive a car, unless they killed some with it. You have to prove your knowledge, responsibility and skills before you're allowed to dive freely.

But, my question's was about home defence and not firearms in general.

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

Unless you know why someone is in your house, it is always better be on the cautious side. Especially if said person has forcefully uninvited themselves into your house.


There is something that a wise man named Col. Jeff Cooper wrote called:

The 4 Rules of Firearms Safety
...1;2;3;4;...

Mr. Tread. Alot of these risks can be mitigated with common sense rules like this. Training is key when handling firearms. Should you become proficient in handling a firearm, you will not have to worry about accidently hitting your family as things like this will make you more aware of what you are doing and how you are doing it.

Right! It could also be a person you don't want to hurt.
It seems like you and some other have the responsibility in use with guns, but that's not a precondition to use it and I'm sure many don't follow that rules or train enough.

You can never 100% sure at a moving target or about ricochet bullets from bones or objects, especially a family member is close to the psychotic person. Training and HP/SP ammunition can lower the risk, but it is still there.

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

SWAT teams are usually called in for a barricaded hostage situation, not home invasions.

The psychotic threatening/hostage situation wasn't that far away from SWAT, for a shooting example, or.

[Tread]

Originally Posted by Rachel

In this country Mr. Tread someone somewhere used their piece to PREVENT a crime today. And yesterday it happened and will tommorow. These occurances are not reported.

And even more to do a crime.

Originally Posted by Rachel

Happened to me twice a few years ago.
...
Now had I not been armed that day Mr. Tread what do you suppose might have happened to my family?

Originally Posted by Rachel

The second time ...
In both these instances my pistols prevented crimes without firing a shot.

I didn't want to discuss weapons for self defence or in general, but you ask me directly to it.

I can't say what would have happened. There are not many facts to build a clear picture about the situations. Not one of the three persons that walked in your direction has threatened you or your family. A violent potential or weapons wasn't visible either, expect by you.
You judge them to be criminal by their looks, age and walking in your direction. You should always be aware in suspicious settings, but it's not sure they were criminals. In the second case, if he watched you the whole time, and waited for you, he is supposable after your money.

If you want to say swinging around a gun on street keeps people away, if criminal or not, you are right.

[Tread]

Originally Posted by jimnaseum

Unlike most people here, I actually used to get robbed quite often when I was whoring in the big city.
...
I'd like to get a shotgun to complete my home protection package.

You don't have to answer, but I like to know:
Are you ever violent or by threatening robed while being at home?
Why do you want an additional shotgun to complete home protection?

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by Tread

And even more to do a crime.

A common fallacy that people have regarding firearms.

[Rachel]

[QUOTE=Tread;11172 Not one of the three persons that walked in your direction has threatened you or your family. A violent potential or weapons wasn’t visible either, expect by you.
You judge them to be criminal by their looks, age and walking in your direction. You should always be aware in suspicious settings, but it’s not sure they were criminals. In the second case, if he watched you the whole time, and waited for you, he is supposable after your money.



Hmm I thought I described the situation quite well enough for a rational person to put themselves in my shoes at that time and place. And I suppose all 3 gentlemen were just approaching me for friendship and good conversation? You are very naive Tread.

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by Tread

I totally forgot the US walls that are made of paper (exaggeration like to blow away an elephant). Why use weapons that go through humans and walls for home defence. That's a risk for uninvolved people.

The .223/5.56 will not punch through a human, even with ball ammuntion. It was designed to tumble on contact with a target. There is even frangible ammunition marketed for home defense use as it shatters once it penetrates an object. it will go through 1 layer of sheetrock but not the other.

Originally Posted by Tread

To buy a rifle, that is usually made for longer distances than handguns, for the reason of home defence sounds for me like an excuse, or a big calibre guns.

You may view it as an excuse but alot of people view it as using the most efficient tool for the job. One mans paranoia is another mans prudent planning.

Originally Posted by Tread

The difference is: I need something to travel time efficient, and no need for a big home defence weapon, in my opinion.

But regardless of the tool and what it is used for, you still use it because it is more efficient, correct?

Originally Posted by Tread

You can never 100% sure at a moving target or about ricochet bullets from bones or objects, especially a family member is close to the psychotic person. Training and HP/SP ammunition can lower the risk, but it is still there.

It takes considerable skill to fire a pistol and accurately hit a target even 25meters away. As much as you might not think so, a rifle is more accurate than a pistol. If one of my family members was in the vicinity of the criminal, I would trust a rifle over a pistol. There are risks involved in everything you do, regardless of whether or not you are shooting, driving to the store, playing a game of soccer or football etc. Proper training is key.

[Tread]

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

A common fallacy that people have regarding firearms.

From Wikipedia Gun Violence

Between 1987 and 1990, David McDowall found that guns were used in defense during a crime incident 64,615 times annually.
...
During this same time period, 1987 and 1990, there were 46,319 gun homicides, and the National Crime Victimization Survey estimates that 2,628,532 nonfatal crimes involving guns occurred.
...
Kleck's survey with Marc Gertz in fact used the largest sample size of any survey that ever asked respondents about defensive gun use - 4,977 cases, far more than is typical in national surveys.[69] A study of gun use in the 1990s, by David Hemenway at the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, found that criminal use of guns is far more common than self-defense use of guns.
...

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by randolph

This is all well and good, but it's not happening. No training is required to own a gun. I found it ludicrous when California required training to buy mace but not a gun.

The PRK is chock full of many stupid rules. To try and grasp the stupidity would drive you mad. Actually you do need proof of training to buy a handgun in Commiefornia. If you see someone who you know has not had firearms training and is being stupid with a weapon i.e. pointing it at someone or pointing it at themselves to demonstrate that "a loaded gun won't fire on SAFE" you are well within your rights to slap the ever loving shit out of them and chastise them for being a dumbshit.

[Tread]

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

The .223/5.56 will not punch through a human, even with ball ammuntion. It was designed to tumble on contact with a target. There is even frangible ammunition marketed for home defense use as it shatters once it penetrates an object. it will go through 1 layer of sheetrock but not the other.

OK, read it up, was confused by statements in this thread.

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

You may view it as an excuse but alot of people view it as using the most efficient tool for the job. One mans paranoia is another mans prudent planning.

The most efficient to kill unwanted guests? Not everything is: If I don't kill him, he will kill me. A weapon with high lethal effects is not necessary, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

But regardless of the tool and what it is used for, you still use it because it is more efficient, correct?

More time efficient than walking, yes.
You can argue a big gun is more efficient than a small one (determent and man stopping).
A machine gun would be even more, or a XM214 Microgun, a tank, but is there a need? (the elephant again)

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

It takes considerable skill to fire a pistol and accurately hit a target even 25meters away. As much as you might not think so, a rifle is more accurate than a pistol. If one of my family members was in the vicinity of the criminal, I would trust a rifle over a pistol. There are risks involved in everything you do, regardless of whether or not you are shooting, driving to the store, playing a game of soccer or football etc. Proper training is key.

Do you have rooms that are 25m long? If it comes really high 10m.
Would you go get your gun, aim and shoot, while your family is threaten by a psychotic person?

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

It would sound more believable if it was from something other than wikipedia.

You can follow the references from Wikipedia, if that helps. What are your needs for a believable reference?

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by Tread

The most efficient to kill unwanted guests? Not everything is: If I don’t kill him, he will kill me. A weapon with high lethal effects is not necessary, in my opinion.

What you just said is contrary to the purpose of why people have home defense weapons. To stop an attacker as quickly as possible. And to stop someone as quickly as possible, a weapon needs to have high lethal effects otherwise an attacker will be wounded and still be able to be a threat.

Originally Posted by Tread

More time efficient than walking, yes.
You can argue a big gun is more efficient than a small one (determent and man stopping).
A machine gun would be even more, or a XM214 Microgun, a tank, but is there a need? (the elephant again)

There is obviously a practicality issue with that. A machine gun is to clumsy to use indoors where as an M4 is alot more maneuverable and has alot more accuracy and distance than a pistol. So practicality outweighs need in those examples.

Originally Posted by Tread

Do you have rooms that are 25m long? If it comes really high 10m.
Would you go get your gun, aim and shoot, while your family is threaten by a psychotic person?

My Mosin is always at the ready, zeroed in and loaded. When I am not around it is locked up. But when I am, it is ready at a seconds notice.

Originally Posted by Tread

You can follow the references from Wikipedia, if that helps. What are your needs for a believable reference?

What it fails to mention is:

1) Crimes thwarted by the victim being armed. It does not display the ratio of crimes averted by the victim being armed vs crimes actually commited with weapons. Alot of attacks that were stopped without shots fired don't get added into the statistics as they don't fall into the "violent crimes" category. All those statistics do is record how many violent crimes actually went through unhindered.

2) Justifiable Homicide. Again, Homicide, whether justifiable or not still falls into the "homicide" category. Until there is a distinction between the two when the statistics are collected and processed, the numbers are still largely skewed.

[indyzzzz]

I guess that MMA class I was thinking about taking is a no-go huh ?

[The Conquistador]

I just bought an M7 bayonet for an M16/M4/AR-15 style rifle. Pics to come!