Global warming???

[randolph]

There is plenty of real data out there for anybody to look at if they are interested in more than spouting uninformed opinions.

[The Conquistador]

But randolph. How can we be sure that we are the cause of the warming? Or could the Earth naturally be going through a warming cycle? I do believe that the Earth is getting warmer, but can it be proven without a doubt, that humans are the cause of said warming?

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

But randolph. How can we be sure that we are the cause of the warming? Or could the Earth naturally be going through a warming cycle? I do believe that the Earth is getting warmer, but can it be proven without a doubt, that humans are the cause of said warming?

This is where things get sticky. GW proponents blame much of the warming trend on the steady increase in CO2 levels produced by the burning of fossil fuels. There is solid physics behind this view. However, the warming trend is not following the rise in CO2. In fact, GW peaked in 1998 in many areas of the earth and has stabilized at about one degree above the long term average.
Mother nature is far more complicated than we are able to understand. The computer modeling going on is, I believe, very dubious. To predict what is going to happen ten years or fifty tears from now based on computer models is, I believe, ridiculous. However, pouring vast amounts of hydrocarbon gases into the atmosphere is asking for trouble. We don't really know what that is going to do to the climate.
What is ironic, is that after WWII there was a cooling trend until the mid seventies. What happened then? There was a concerted effort to clean up smog and smoke. This had no effect on CO2 output, however. So the smoke and smog emissions that suppressed the warming effect of CO2 were reduced allowing the CO2 to warm the air.
So unless we know what we are doing, the safest thing to do is cut back on burning oil and coal. Its not going to last forever anyway.

[The Conquistador]

I am all for alternative/renewable energy resources. I just hate it when hippies try to make me feel guilty for driving a car and try to push unproven technology onto me because they think they have some enlightened view. That's my only gripe about the GW crowd; some of them mind you, not all of them.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

I am all for alternative/renewable energy resources. I just hate it when hippies try to make me feel guilty for driving a car and try to push unproven technology onto me because they think they have some enlightened view. That's my only gripe about the GW crowd; some of them mind you, not all of them.

Well, I have several cars and my favorite is my GMC Yukon. It's comfortable and fast and can get twenty MPG if I am careful. I don't care for hybrids because of the battery. Full electric has limited range, I think the best current alternative is diesel. They are just as efficient as hybrids and don't require expensive batteries. Also, diesels can run on vegetable oil. Producing vegetable oil makes far more sense than making alcohol from food (corn).

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by randolph

Well, I have several cars and my favorite is my GMC Yukon. It's comfortable and fast and can get twenty MPG if I am careful. I don't care for hybrids because of the battery. Full electric has limited range, I think the best current alternative is diesel. They are just as efficient as hybrids and don't require expensive batteries. Also, diesels can run on vegetable oil. Producing vegetable oil makes far more sense than making alcohol from food (corn).

Yeah. Diesels are pretty good. They also don't pollute as much as gasoline because the combustion and power strokes are alot longer and the fuel stays in the cylinder longer which allows it to be burned more completely. Plus it burns hotter because of the higher compression of a diesel engine.

Diesels also burn JP8 but this is riskier as jet fuel burns way, way hotter.

I remember seeing in Popular Mechanics an article about Bio-Diesel. It was pretty interesting.

[Rachel]

Originally Posted by randolph

There is plenty of real data out there for anybody to look at if they are interested in more than spouting uninformed opinions.

I only spout when I get excited

[randolph]

Originally Posted by Rachel

I only spout when I get excited

Your "spouting" would be most welcome!

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by Rachel

I only spout when I get excited

I'd definetly want some "fuel injection". Can you fit your piston into my cylinder, or would it need to be bored oversive?

[Rachel]

My hot rod has a stroker crank lol

[randolph]

Originally Posted by Rachel

My hot rod has a stroker crank lol

I have some Tranny Honey for your stroker when needed.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

Well about the global warming thing, then there was the global cooling, but when i was a kid, living in Canada and in the winter at night i would look at the skies and if ther was a good cloud cover the next day was mild, but if it was free of clouds the next day was COLD, so global warming? i'm not so sure, and as it was stated before who knows what the "normal" temperature change is over centuries or mileniums so it is all pretty much theoretical, but polution is a real problem that has to be addressed the sooner the better, and if the threat of global warming does that, then it is not a bad thing.

JohnDowe.

[Tread]

Originally Posted by violet lightning

Think about the massive volcanoe eruptions in the 19th century, like Krakatowa. It actually caused a "nuclear winter" for several months world wide. (known as "The Little Ice Age")

A nuclear winter is caused by many detonating nuclear weapons and not a volcano. This would be a volcanic winter. Also the climatic effects are comparable.
The little ice age was from 16th century to the mid 19th century as cause of less sun activity and more volcano activity.

Originally Posted by violet lightning

Maybe we are warming the planet slightly, but I also know anything man does is dwarfed by nature...
...Thankfully, man hasn't even come close to doing that. According to some scientists, some volcanoes spew more gases and debris in a few days than man has in 10,000 years. ...
...Maybe the world is warming, maybe its not. Maybe its the sun.
To me, the interesting thing is that most scientists and climatologists seem to agree that the earth is actually in a fairly temperate and calm period between major ice ages. So even if we are warming the planet slightly, aren't we actually helping forestall the eventual and inevitable next ice age?

(I'm not saying man has no effect, obviously we do, but in the case of Global warming, I'm not sure we are the sole or even main culpret-)
Thoughts?

There are indicators that mankind has warmed the last Ice Age (not the Little Ice Age) that should have happened so that the temperature didn't fall.
Isn't it alarming that an Ice Age is coming and temperature is significant rising.
There is no question that Steam, Carbon Dioxide, Methane, Nitrous Oxide and Halocarbon cause a Greenhouse effect. Ice cores show us that these compounds had a constant value in the atmosphere for min. 800.000 to 20 Million years, maybe much longer. 8.000 years ago (start of farming) this changed slightly. But with the industrial revolution the atmosphere change significant. In 2 hundred years the Carbon Dioxide value has risen about 40%, and the other greenhouse gases have risen comparable.

I don't think it's a good idea to burn over hundred of million year's stored fossil carbon in 300 year's. This must have an effect on the climate.
And it's not only the gases we produce, there is a massive methane production by mass animal husbandry, man burned and chopped forests for farming land and other need. We pollute more and take nature capacitate to compensate it.


Bio Diesel sound good but has worse effect on climate than fossil Diesel. There is not enough cheap useable space for the plants that are needed to make Bio Diesel. So poor countries burn down forests to get mono plant farming land to get money without taken care of nature. And the process of making Bio Diesel out of plants is not very effective by now.




A Question, why do we burn an amazing unlasting resource we are addicted to? Just one example what can be made of oil is plastic. What would life be without plastic?
Do you own a single pair of shoes without plastic in the sole? How many of your clothes are made with plastics? What is the isolator around almost every electric wire or electronic chip? In what is your food packed? Most that is used to seal (or gasketed) like windows or fridges. Nearly everything that is glued i.e. Plywood or Fiberglass. And everything else you could easily see made of plastic if you look at it with full awareness.

[violet lightning]

Originally Posted by randolph

There is plenty of real data out there for anybody to look at if they are interested in more than spouting uninformed opinions.

130 years, (the amount of time man has been keeping meteorlogical/climate data- and the timespan on the 3 graphs you show) is virtually a speck in the geological and climactic history of the Earth.
They have taken ice core samples I believe, that go further back, but I don't have that data.

LIke others have said, I do believe man certainly can and does have an effect on our environment. (extinction of species, nuclear waste, deforestation, etc), but I'm not sure about "planetary effects".
Far better it seems, is to focus back on pollution, deforestation, (which can cause climate change) and resource management. Things we do know are happening, have a definite cause and which are detrimental to man and the environment.

:D Also, I know nuclear winter is from a nuclear exchange. I used the term as a comparison with volcanos, as I have heard several scientist do. The similarities are the amount of debris and smoke they both toss up into the upper atmosphere, resulting in a loss of sunlight and cooling temperatures.

Good discussion and many good points on all sides.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by violet lightning

130 years, (the amount of time man has been keeping meteorlogical data- and the timespan on the 3 graphs you show) is virtually a speck in the geological and climactic history of the Earth. I would think you would know that, being so informed.
They have taken ice core samples I believe, that go further back, but you don't have that data.

I have heard that the earth is self-regulating, and that when the sun warms up (sun cycles, etc), the earth can cool itself. One of these results (a weather expert said) in releasing carbon dioxide from the oceans, which is a fairly simple and understood cause/effect relationship.
Makes sense to me.

The three graphs posted were simply examples of data available to anyone who wants to see for themselves what is going on climatically.

Sorry, you second paragraph makes no sense to me.

[Tread]

Originally Posted by violet lightning

An interesting aspect to consider is the reign of the dinosaurs during the Triassic, Jurasic and Cretaceous periods, which lasted for millions of years. (mankind has been in existence for a fraction of that) They existed in great numbers and presumably put out alot of gasses. (remember the cow flatulence theory for GW?)
The earth was warmer then, and things like volcanos, comet impacts and massive, unchecked forest and grass fires filled the atmosphere with all kinds of gasses, smoke and debris. They survived for millions of years before they went extinct. (I still think nature dwarfs man.)

Yes the earth was warmer then, but mankind creates the atmosphere of then and let less woods grow. At a single spot nature dwarf's man, but global it's not the case.

Originally Posted by violet lightning

LIke others have said, I do believe man certainly can and does have an effect on our environment. (extinction of species, nuclear waste, deforestation, etc), but I'm not sure about "planetary effects".

The biggest extinction of species after the mass mortality at the end of Cretaceous. I think this, the massive dispersion of foreign species at places they don't belong, farming, animal husbandry are a global effects. The planet earth will be there until the sun absorb it. Not sure what you mean by "planetary effects", but climate is part of the of our environment.

Originally Posted by violet lightning

The planet, (Gaia?) is massive and complex, and I think its been around and doing fine for billions of years before man, and if we really pose a threat, it'll shake us off like little parasites. (so I do think we need to be good "tenants"!)

That is right, nature don't need us, but we need nature. Such massive and complex system can't do it in a few years, but even in this short time reactions are visible. The question is how much is mankind the cause. And as Randolph said:

Originally Posted by randolph

So unless we know what we are doing, the safest thing to do is cut back on burning oil and coal. Its not going to last forever anyway.

[Jenae LaTorque]

Perhaps it is like in some of the Sci-Fi literature. Maybe our planet, and I use the term "our" loosely, is sentinent to an extent. Maybe someday, if she feels threatened by us humans, she will just shrug us off, so to speak. Tsunamis, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions galore!

Yup, maybe "the music of the spheres" is various celestial bodies complaining about what those damn fleas are up to now.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

Perhaps it is like in some of the Sci-Fi literature. Maybe our planet, and I use the term "our" loosely, is sentinent to an extent. Maybe someday, if she feels threatened by us humans, she will just shrug us off, so to speak. Tsunamis, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions galore!

Yup, maybe "the music of the spheres" is various celestial bodies complaining about what those damn fleas are up to now.

Hey babe, it's already happening. fires, floods, earthquakes, tsunami's, record breaking cold weather, a massive early storm in California.
What we have been doing is poking mother nature with sticks and she is getting fed up.

[Mel Asher]

I can't say I'm impressed by any of the Pro-Gobal-warming brigade.

Much has already been said in this thread debunking the so-called ' evidence '

• Volcanic Activity
  One eruption produces massive amounts of CO2 and SO2 gases together with miscellaneous complex gaseous and residual hydrocarbons
• Pathetically short periods of recorded climatological data

Whe the major planetary cycles can be as long as 1500 years ( ask the Mayas )

1. CO2 ? Try SO2 for a real Planet-killer !

Anybody fancy living on an ageing version of Venus ?

Yes. Pollution by excess production of Chemicals ( atmospheric or otherwise ) IS a Planet-killer in the Long Term, maybe even in a geologically-short time-span. So is Over-population, Over-grazing. Soil-nutrient Depletion,
Man-made Soil Erosion, Over-harvesting - the list of mankind's follies goes on and on.

But for my two main Horses of the Apocalypse I would choose Over-population and Greed ( with its ever-attendant Wars )

No. our only hope is to be invaded by superior benevolent beings from another Galaxy ( Ours won't do as we'll have infested is with population by then )

Meanwhile, let's all have non-productive Sex and wait for the invasion. . . .

[Jenae LaTorque]

Randolph! So maybe you had best heed those warnings ( omens, portents, signs, etc) and get the hell out of Kookyfornia before it slides into the Pacific.