Ungendering and a Lack of Respect

[ila]

Recently there have been some comments on here which ungender the transwomen of the world. This is not something new on here, but there have never been as many comments at one time as there has been in the last week.

By ungendering I mean making statements that ciswomen are "real women" and by inference that transwomen aren't real. As transwomen are real women then one is taking away transwomen's gender by inferring that they are not real women. Still other statements have referred to ciswomen as women and females whereas in the same post transwomen have been referred as tgirls. This is just another way to ungender transwomen by inferring that transwomen are neither women nor female. The men on here claim to love/admire/want transwomen and yet statements that ungender transwomen show a great lack of respect.

I am sure that some members have made these statements without realizing how hurtful it can be. There are still others that have made such statements knowing full well what the impact is.

I would like to remind the men here to show more respect to all transwomen. Please do not refer to ciswomen as the only real women. Remember that transwomen are real women and they are female.

To put this in perspective I would ask the men to think of how they would feel if they were referred to as she or her or any other feminine term. If you are offended or feel uncomfortable or even pissed off then you are on the path to realizing how a transwoman feels when she is ungendered.

To get a better perspective on this subject I encourage you to click on the link below. It will take you to the thread Real Girls which was started by Bionca.

http://forum.transladyboy.com/showthread.php?t=3444

[shadows]

I will say that I have seen examples of what you are talking about, Ila. I have tried correcting a couple of the members, but I am not sure if I was stepping on any toes being a new member myself.

I cannot be sure but it could stem from the fact that a few members view their adoration/love as a kink or as merely a physical outlet for their desires.

To me, they are women. More importantly they are fellow human beings and not merely an object of desire to me.

[Bionca]

A big thank you bump!

[9yneGuy]

I'll just share my story and I'm guessing a lot of the people who use "real woman" are/were in the same boat as I used to be in.

I've never met a transgendered person in my life. I've always respected their choices and lifestyles but I knew little about them or the "terms" describing them. I became interested in t-girls through porn. But beyond porn, I knew little to nothing. I joined this site, and I didn't know the "lingo" so to speak. I'm fairly certain that I used the term "real girl" at least once. But I didn't know that it was offensive; I just didn't know of another term to use. I saw that it was offensive and I immediately stopped using it. I found out that the term to use is "genetic girl" or "g-girl" and I use that now. I've always knew that t-girls are real girls. There's never been a time in my life where I've denied that fact. Women are women, no matter what sexual organ they have.

I just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in here. Just to say that not everyone who used that term is a bad guy here, especially if they use it without really knowing how bad it is. Hopefully the people who read this and still use the term will shape up and stop using it.

[Bionca]

Originally Posted by 9yneGuy

I'll just share my story and I'm guessing a lot of the people who use "real woman" are/were in the same boat as I used to be in.

I've never met a transgendered person in my life. I've always respected their choices and lifestyles but I knew little about them or the "terms" describing them. I became interested in t-girls through porn. But beyond porn, I knew little to nothing. I joined this site, and I didn't know the "lingo" so to speak. I'm fairly certain that I used the term "real girl" at least once. But I didn't know that it was offensive; I just didn't know of another term to use. I saw that it was offensive and I immediately stopped using it. I found out that the term to use is "genetic girl" or "g-girl" and I use that now. I've always knew that t-girls are real girls. There's never been a time in my life where I've denied that fact. Women are women, no matter what sexual organ they have.

I just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in here. Just to say that not everyone who used that term is a bad guy here, especially if they use it without really knowing how bad it is. Hopefully the people who read this and still use the term will shape up and stop using it.

I like this and I can almost see using "real girl" if you didn't know better. My only problem is that it is still a pretty thoughtless word choice. I mean literally, little thought used in choosing that word. Because if you think about it for a little bit, the opposite of "real" is "fake". Given the nature of the conversations, I'm sure that thinking about precise meaning behind word is not high on the list of priorities - so it happens (lots)

I think problems start when guys get corrected and then launch into post after post defending their right to use "real girl" and to make it clear that trans women are not, in fact, "real women". These are the guys this needs to reach. This is why it is better for you guys to do the right thing and tell your fellow dudes that trans women are Real and women.

[ila]

It's time to bump this thread to the front again. Recently I've seen a lot of use of the terms real women, real girls, "she", his, and several other terms that have been ungendering transwomen. I am not bumping this thread to admonish any particular member or members. Rather I am using this opportunity to provide enlightenment for those that would like to know the correct terms to use and also to show why some terms are hurtful.

I?ll add my bump as well. Unfortunately, I?m not sure whether or not the ungendering that occurs on here is just careless--or if it is intentionally disrespectful. I sincerely hope that it is the former and those who are guilty of it will stop and think about what they're saying.

Dr. A

[IronCity]

I 100% see transgirls as women and if ever given the opportunity to date one I would treat them as such. Saying that they are anything but women is a total insult and should not be tolerated. I hope one day I can find true love with a transWOMAN.

that is why i too dont get the endless questions posted here : am I gay??? they are women!!!!! plain and simple (at least to me) so how can you be gay.... not that it matters to me if people think I am ... i could care less. deep down inside you know if you are gay or not. A girl with a cock (IMO) is an added bonus. I love girls with a vagina or a sexy cock. ITs not all about sex.. (unless thats all your looking for ..escorts). It is about how you make each other feel in and out of bed. I think finding a girl with a cock would be a dream come true. I want a girl... a best friend.. a lover...a trusting honest relationship with a woman... if she has a penis ... all the better.

[ila]

Originally Posted by IronCity

I 100% see transgirls as women and if ever given the opportunity to date one I would treat them as such. Saying that they are anything but women is a total insult and should not be tolerated. I hope one day I can find true love with a transWOMAN.

that is why i too dont get the endless questions posted here : am I gay??? they are women!!!!! plain and simple (at least to me) so how can you be gay.... not that it matters to me if people think I am ... i could care less. deep down inside you know if you are gay or not. A girl with a cock (IMO) is an added bonus. I love girls with a vagina or a sexy cock. ITs not all about sex.. (unless thats all your looking for ..escorts). It is about how you make each other feel in and out of bed. I think finding a girl with a cock would be a dream come true. I want a girl... a best friend.. a lover...a trusting honest relationship with a woman... if she has a penis ... all the better.

Well said.

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by aw9725

I?ll add my bump as well. Unfortunately, I?m not sure whether or not the ungendering that occurs on here is just careless--or if it is intentionally disrespectful. I sincerely hope that it is the former and those who are guilty of it will stop and think about what they're saying.

Dr. A

I think that most of the people who visit are just here for the tranny pics; odds are they rarely bother to read anything outside of the Freebies and Shemale Chat sections. If people take the time to stop and read this thread and a few from the General Discussion section, they will be alot more informed.

I urge visitors to read this thread but it seems that the naked pictures will continue to take precedence over a handful of words...

[ImAlittleCurious]

I'll try and add a few things. I know. I am still fairly new here. And might have said a thing or two, that might seem "Disrespectful." And I'm sorry for that.

Most of it has to do with.. Stepping into a new community. And at the same time being scared of fully admitting I'm into these woman..

[smc]

Originally Posted by ImAlittleCurious

I'll try and add a few things. I know. I am still fairly new here. And might have said a thing or two, that might seem "Disrespectful." And I'm sorry for that.

Most of it has to do with.. Stepping into a new community. And at the same time being scared of fully admitting I'm into these woman..

This is a good community within which to overcome your fear.

[IronCity]

Originally Posted by ImAlittleCurious

I'll try and add a few things. I know. I am still fairly new here. And might have said a thing or two, that might seem "Disrespectful." And I'm sorry for that.

Most of it has to do with.. Stepping into a new community. And at the same time being scared of fully admitting I'm into these woman..

I dont think people like you are the issue here....if you are new to the site or new to the liking of or exploring of trans-women you may on occasion make some mistakes but you are here to learn and be educated and to learn from your mistakes. I too on occasion have to think about what I am writing to not accidentally offend anyone.(as I am new to this world and excited to be here) I think this post is more directed to people knowing that what they are posting is disrespectful and doing it anyway


MY 2 cents.

[smc]

Originally Posted by IronCity

I think this post is more directed to people knowing that what they are posting is disrespectful and doing it anyway.

We have certainly had our share of those kinds of posts. Even worse, perhaps, are the ones that may not be consciously disrespectful, but when the disrespect is pointed out the member becomes belligerent. Those are the days that make me wonder what I was thinking when I agreed to be a moderator!

[d332_dot_com]

I myself have used "genetic girl" to differentiate from tgirls. Usually this is used in a context of meditating on some trans community issues.

I do notice many transgirls appending T- CD- TV- to their avatar and handles online. I think this is purely to forewarn other guys of who they are....after having heard so many stories of men who get bent out of shape once they find out what's behind the curtains.

If it was up to me, I would do away with "trans-" and "transgender" altogether. Plain vanilla "girl" is simplicity personified.

As for how insulted guys would feel if someone called them a "she" or a "her" well, in the gay culture, it's quite common to call each other b*tches, girls, and whatnot. And in the mainstream culture, I am increasing seeing girls called each other "guys" and even "dudes." Even a man's man (raised eyebrows) are getting so high maintenance and sensitive these days, I'm shocked nobody has started to call them girls.

I know it's one of those asymmetrical things where girls have more freedom than guys. But I believe language shapes reality and perception. The more people use the standard pronouns interchangeably, (hopefully) there will come a day when people begin to realize that gender is dynamic. Not something written in stone and permanent.

[franalexes]

Originally Posted by d332_dot_com

As for how insulted guys would feel if someone called them a "she" or a "her" well, in the gay culture, it's quite common to call each other b*tches, girls, and whatnot. And in the mainstream culture, I am increasing seeing girls called each other "guys" and even "dudes." Even a man's man (raised eyebrows) are getting so high maintenance and sensitive these days, I'm shocked nobody has started to call them girls.

:

I wonder if we should start a thread to discuss wether Ila, SMC, shadows or even SSL are "real guys".
Don't worry about my idea. I've had my butt kicked before.

[Mel Asher]

I am a little disquieted by some of the views expressed in this thread. I count myself as one perhaps of many who have grown to love and respect Transgenders and Transgenderism, and who must, on more than one occasion, in my clumsy attempts to express enthusiasm, or an honest opinion, caused offence by using terms which a number of members might take offence at; offence where innocently none is intended. Often the quickness to take offence is linked to the unhappy personal life experiences of the person offended.

This is a forum for frank and open discussion. Let's be just a little bit careful about loping an Orwellian mentality towards those less informed than oneself.
Education, especially on other peoples' sensitivies, takes time, so beware of becoming ' holier than thou '.

and share

[ila]

Before anyone takes offence at this thread I would like to say that it was not directed at any individual. I started this thread after corresponding with a couple of the ladies on this site and listening to their concerns. At the time there were a lot of disparaging remarks about transwomen.

This thread has nothing to do with being PC nor having a holier than thou attitude. Rather the purpose is to encourage members to be respectful to the ladies that we care about.

[JodieTs]

There is also the circumstance & context of how and where something is said.
I think it's fine on a trans site, to differentiate between:
A female who has a trans background
and
a female who does not.

As to what that term should be, well:, that where the difficulties start.
Let me explain:
Real girl or RG. Well most Ts's will take offence to varying degrees.
Real as opposed to fake or trick
(As in "she had a cock, I had no idea, I was tricked, so that made it ok to kill her" >>>>& the courts nod in agreement & give a minimal sentence )
The girl bit of that phase, suggests not mature enough to think for ourselves or that we should
mindlessly nod and agree with you, all knowing & all wise {like frak!}
Oh, BTW, we are not girls, as we are all old enough to vote.

Genetic girl (or GG) Differentiates us & yes it is technically correct.
{IS persons acknowledged}
It does differentiate us from other women so context in how it is used & by whom [new to trans forums and unknowing about ts etiquette or longer here & should know better]

Natal woman is more acceptable
Trans, even more so
[But not for post-op women, in which case they should always be referred to as women, everywhere, UNLESS THEY THEMSELVES refer to their past {emphasis} history]

It is when a term is used to in some degree belittle us or dehumanise us,
that there is an issue.

Which I'm sure both myself & other ts women here will rightly jump upon.
There is the education aspect as well.
Which can give a greater understanding on how we think & what may be perceived as offensive.
One of my exe's [an 11 year post-op Ts woman] uses the following term in places like here:
Day-one woman>>>>>A woman from the day they were born
&
Not Day-one woman>>>>>A woman at some point after their birth.
Which seems to apply to Post-op, Pre-op & non-op Ts women.

In mainstream life however,
The term: Woman, will suffice.

[oldawg]

As is often the case, & the reason why I usually stay out of these conversations, by the time I'm done reading the entire thread I'm so damn confused as to whos who, whats what & why people are offended that I keep to myself & dont get into it.

However, for me its important to say that in my world, if you consider yourself a girl, then youre a girl. A boy, then a boy. If that bothers you, woman & man will do, no harm, no foul. Any explanation beyond that is or should be between the two people discussing it anyway.

As far as I see it, its all about respect, & ultimately that comes down to the individual (& the couple).

oldawg

That's exactly what I have found. I would think that most of the members here would like my posts--but that doesn't seem to be the case. Or people take things out of context or only read part of a post. And then respond negatively to that. I have tried to be a supportive member of this forum but I have decided that enough is enough--I'm through!

[mightygor]

This is all crazy talk...when we extract the societal presumptions of sexual roles(i.e reproducing vessel vs protective warrior) it all devolves to just plain ol' rubbing. Yes, I am looking at TS images and accept the arousal that transpires. But I would not classify that arousal as anything more than wanting to love and be loved; to run and be rubbed. Aren't we pretty much the same under and outside of our own skin? Establishing the terms with which we dub one another is just part of the foreplay. I'll stop...for now.

[davecess]

The way I see it every individual should be taken on their own merit. I don't see why a T-girl should be afforded any more or less respect than a G-girl.

The thing that seems to be common with most T-girls is that they revel in their feminity and love to be appreciated for it. Some G-girls seem to just take their femininity for granted and either don't want to, or have forgotten how to, express it.

[Bionca]

... or there is more than one way to express femininity...

[tonywaits]

I know quite a few transgendered people in real life and it really pisses me off at the people that will call them he or she just by what is between their legs, not what they want to be or be referred as. I have a friend named Bri, born Brad, and I find it appalling at the people that still call her Brad. To me it is just disrespectful. I am trying to get her to let me do a photo shoot, so I can post them on here. No nudity I'm sure. LOL

[outofmymind]

Thank you very much for creating this thread.

[grace gmore]

we are all beings and I was just born with a defect my body didnt match my mind sorry but I aam and always will be a woman despite any appearances....Grace A woman always just wish my body matched but I will smile anyhow tee hee

[Magnetical]

Hi, Ila. Great post. I don't really post here often but I enjoy reading people's perspectives on the whole "trans" gender issue because my girlfriend happens to be a transexual girl and she directed me to this site a long time ago and I read a thought-provoking post so I signed up.

In your defence, I imagine it must be frustrating when men use this site to express their hidden fantasies about being with trans-gendered women as opposed to biological women. However, in their defence, I can understand the infatuation; it's only natural to be curious. But guys, being guys, can obviously get a bit crass - we're an uneducated lot that need slow and steady teaching.

In my personal experience, I've witnessed the broad spectrum of this subject, but I don't presume to understand. I live in the central business district of Sydney (home of Mardi Gras). This is not to insinuate that you belong in a category, I'm merely saying that where I come from probably better equips me for this topic better than most men. I am fortunate enough to be surrounded by a circle of friends who come from all walks of life and sexuality that generally reserves judgement. Maybe this social standing helps me a bit better, maybe it doesn't. I can't say for sure.

However, in my ignorance and perhaps bohemian upbringing, I've never really looked at transgendered women as "TRANSgendered" per se. This is perhaps either cute or stupid. That my girlfriend happens to have a penis is really only subjective in the fact that it's part of her anatomy. Maybe she might have had a vagina, whatever; that's not what attracted me to her because she wasn't naked when I met her.

Sometimes she gets really quiet on this issue and so I don't say anything because I don't want to upset her by seeming pushy, but I know she thinks about it. She broaches the subject sometimes but then falls silent. How can I better understand her? Part of me wants to tell her she's beautiful and to shut up etc but I know that sounds a bit shallow and lacking empathy. Any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you for an informative post. You've given me a better appreciation and I hope I can see things a bit better now. All the best.

[franalexes]

Women are meant to be loved; not understood.

[valentinetabitha]

I'm glad this thread exists, largely because it helps me figure out how to properly word my posts. While I've been posting here for a while, I'm not all that involved in the transgendered community. I'm here to learn, and to experience as much of the community as I can since I don't have the option of "coming out" publically any time soon (if ever).

[sesame]

Originally Posted by franalexes

Women are meant to be loved; not understood.

Women!!!
The fairer sex!
The better half!
Those graceful creatures!

Who can understand them? (when women are incapapable of understanding themselves!)
Women almost always are proud. They have the misconception that the world revolves around themselves. They are frequently offended and holler a big drama out of thin air! All their speeches & actions are focussed on drawing attention, preferrably of the "darker?" sex (men).

If you want to have sex with her, she will call you "lustful, lewd, salacious"!
If you dont ask her for sex, she will complain of being ignored, "not loved anymore"!

Its futile to understand them, for there is nothing to understand.
I think its the hormones!

[smc]

Originally Posted by sesame

Women!!!
The fairer sex!
The better half!
Those graceful creatures!

Who can understand them? (when women are incapapable of understanding themselves!)
Women almost always are proud. They have the misconception that the world revolves around themselves. They are frequently offended and holler a big drama out of thin air! All their speeches & actions are focussed on drawing attention, preferrably of the "darker?" sex (men).

If you want to have sex with her, she will call you "lustful, lewd, salacious"!
If you dont ask her for sex, she will complain of being ignored, "not loved anymore"!

Its futile to understand them, for there is nothing to understand.
I think its the hormones!

Aren't stereotypes and generalizations comforting?

[sesame]

Believe me, they are!

[smc]

Originally Posted by sesame

Believe me, they are!

I guess the appropriate response, then, is speak for yourself. I am sure you speak for most others, too. Personally, I find they make me feel diminished and so I work really hard to avoid making them when it comes to people and types/classes/categories/etc. of people.

[sesame]

True, but yet again, not completely.
Types, classes, categories are an integral part of science.
Sociology, psychology, behavior patterns are also true.

Dont take my description of feminine behavior too seriously though.

[vampi]

A lot of transwomen are great people in heart and soul. However a lot of men who like them can't ignore the fact that the pre-ops have cock and maybe they look with fetiche. I feel it bothers many Tgirls.

I could understand those gg who are worried about this for obvious reason.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by vampi

A lot of transwomen are great people in heart and soul. However a lot of men who like them can't ignore the fact that the pre-ops have cock and maybe they look with fetiche. I feel it bothers many Tgirls.

I could understand those gg who are worried about this for obvious reason.

"Look with fetiche"???

[smc]

Originally Posted by vampi

A lot of transwomen are great people in heart and soul. However a lot of men who like them can't ignore the fact that the pre-ops have cock and maybe they look with fetiche. I feel it bothers many Tgirls.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

"Look with fetiche"???

I could be wrong, but I believe vampi means that some transwomen are bothered by the fact that many men fetishize the fact that they have cocks, whereas the transwoman may prefer to be seen as someone who does not have a cock.

Vampi, please correct me if that is not what you mean.

[vampi]

Originally Posted by smc

I could be wrong, but I believe vampi means that some transwomen are bothered by the fact that many men fetishize the fact that they have cocks, whereas the transwoman may prefer to be seen as someone who does not have a cock.

Vampi, please correct me if that is not what you mean.

Almost.
I meant that many of them want to be seen more as a person to have a real relationship with, not as sex objects. It is what I find when reading posts here.

[smc]

Originally Posted by vampi

Almost.
I meant that many of them want to be seen more as a person to have a real relationship with, not as sex objects. It is what I find when reading posts here.

I think your use of the word fetish, given what it means, is too unspecific. However, I understand exactly your point. It is an extension of what I wrote in interpretation.

[vampi]

I won't ensure that fetiche is the best way to define a person's particular sex fancy. Just it's the most used term for people when they to that.

[wxhluyp]

In another sense it can be said that we have a duty to "ungender". This is because there is no distinct gender (there is no essential form of categorization). Gendering is imposing exclusivity.

[ila]

Originally Posted by wxhluyp

In another sense it can be said that we have a duty to "ungender". This is because there is no distinct gender (there is no essential form of categorization). Gendering is imposing exclusivity.

Your statement is specious.

[wxhluyp]

Originally Posted by ila

Your statement is specious.

It is? How so?

Originally Posted by wxhluyp

In another sense it can be said that we have a duty to "ungender". This is because there is no distinct gender (there is no essential form of categorization). Gendering is imposing exclusivity.

Here is a fairly straightforward definition of “Ungendering” from Trans 101:

Ungendering: “An attempt to invalidate a trans person’s gender by using cissexual privilege to identify incongruities and discrepancies in their gendered appearance that would normally be overlooked or dismissed if they were presumed to be cissexual.”

Also you might want to read ila’s original post in this thread. As defined here, the act of “ungendering” is considered quite offensive to trans men and women.

[wxhluyp]

Theoretically I do not privilege any particular way of identification. A single representative term is restrictive.

[smc]

Originally Posted by wxhluyp

Theoretically I do not privilege any particular way of identification. A single representative term is restrictive.

You are welcome to your opinion, as laden with sophism as it may be (in my opinion). The bottom line is that on this site we respect SELF-DETERMINATION. That means that each of us gets to determine our own gender identification, and you don't get to "ungender" anyone in that respect.

[wxhluyp]

Originally Posted by smc

You are welcome to your opinion, as laden with sophism as it may be (in my opinion). The bottom line is that on this site we respect SELF-DETERMINATION. That means that each of us gets to determine our own gender identification, and you don't get to "ungender" anyone in that respect.

I advocate inclusivity and growth. I am against subjected or self-imposed limitation.

I didn't expect such hostility...

[smc]

Originally Posted by wxhluyp

I advocate inclusivity and growth. I am against subjected or self-imposed limitation.

I didn't expect such hostility...

Again, that's fine. But even if you find it an example of "self-limitation" that someone on this site chooses to identify himself or herself a certain way, you don't get to undo that. Period.

And this isn't "hostility." It's clarity.

[wxhluyp]

Originally Posted by smc

Again, that's fine. But even if you find it an example of "self-limitation" that someone on this site chooses to identify himself or herself a certain way, you don't get to undo that. Period.

And this isn't "hostility." It's clarity.

Ofcourse. There are times when theorizing is more appropriate than others. Theres a false common-sense idealization of identity which must be overturned in society. Gender is positively multiple.

The accusation of sophism and lack of clarity in my mere "opinion" was pretty hostile. I don't know whether it was intentional, but it did seem so.