Barack Obama

[JohnTB]

Originally Posted by JohnTB

Oversight on my part - sorry!

Oversight and 'insulting' are NOT synonomous!

[TracyCoxx]

Oversight not withstanding, all your other points are correct.

[TracyCoxx]

There are a couple of foreign policy developments happening this week. The Iranian post-election uprising, and North Korea both threatening to launch missiles at Hawaii and Alaska and also transporting a ship load of nuclear materials in the pacific.

Obama supporters: How would you think that Obama will, or should handle these events?

What should he do now? What should he do if the uprisings in Iran are stopped with deadly force? What should he do if North Korea launches a missile near Hawaii or Alaska? What should he do about the ship load of nuclear materials?

[tslust]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

There are a couple of foreign policy developments happening this week. The Iranian post-election uprising, and North Korea both threatening to launch missiles at Hawaii and Alaska and also transporting a ship load of nuclear materials in the pacific.

obama supporters: How would you think that obama will, or should handle these events?

What should he do now? What should he do if the uprisings in Iran are stopped with deadly force? What should he do if North Korea launches a missile near Hawaii or Alaska? What should he do about the ship load of nuclear materials?

obama will do what just he's done so far; he'll go appologize for America's arrogance and interventionist policies then extend an "olive branch" to those nations threatening to wipe us and our allies off the map. As far as obama's supporters, they'll do what they always do. Instead of trying to defend and rationalize their guy's (obama's) policies and statements, they'll just blame Bush.

[randolph]

Thia is from Joe Kline at Time
I've been receiving a steady stream of favorable emails from Iranian-Americans regarding my appearance on Larry King last night. They're delighted that I made it clear that Iran is different from the other countries in the region--better educated, more sophisticated, with far greater rights for women (although not nearly enough). And they also appreciated the fact that when King asked me what John McCain should do right now, I said, "Be quiet."

The Washington Post has a piece today about the efforts of some Republicans to make hay out of the situation in Iran. McCain, who spent the entire 2008 election making misleading statements about the nature of the Iranian government (I wonder if he still thinks Ahmadinejad is more powerful than the Supreme Leader), has been at the forefront of this. It is very unseemly. I have yet to hear what possible good it would do for the President of the United States to encourage the protesters, except to give the Iranian regime a better excuse for killing more of them. McCain's bleatings are either for domestic political consumption or self-satisfaction, a form of hip-shooting onanism that demonstrates why he would have been a foreign policy disaster had he been elected.

To put it as simply as possible, McCain--and his cohorts--are trying to score political points against the President in the midst of an international crisis. It is the sort of behavior that Republicans routinely call "unpatriotic" when Democrats are doing it. I would never question John McCain's patriotism, no matter how misguided his sense of the country's best interests sometimes seems. His behavior has nothing to do with love of country; it has everything to do with love of self.

Repubs are just passing the same old shit.

[CreativeMind]

Originally Posted by randolph

Thia is from Joe Kline at Time...

I've been receiving a steady stream of favorable emails from Iranian-Americans regarding my appearance on Larry King last night. They're delighted that I made it clear that Iran is different from the other countries in the region--better educated, more sophisticated, with far greater rights for women (although not nearly enough). And they also appreciated the fact that when King asked me what John McCain should do right now, I said, "Be quiet."

Well, let's remember two things. First of all, we're talking about freakin' Joe Klein here, who is about as Left of Left as you can possibly get. For crying out loud, this moron actually thinks Ahmadinejad and Bush are equivalent to each other, for delusional reasons I won't even go into because it would take too long to type out.

Second, I always love when news commentators give out their personal opinions (which is fine since that's what they get paid for), BUT THEN they try to back their assertions up with a vague toss-away comment like "You can't believe the number of emails I've been getting from people who agree with me." Well, actually, I DON'T believe it, so how about giving out some actual numbers? What, do you normally get 10 positive emails from readers and this time you got 13, so you see that as a 30% spike -- when in reality you just got 3 extra emails?

To be fair, I'm sure he has received some email, but I'm willing to bet good hard cash that he hasn't gotten as much as he makes out since he just wants a quick excuse to say "See? I got mail, so I was right!" Or I'm willing to bet that an even GREATER number of Iranian-Americans are paying NO attention to a boob like Klein, and they are posting away elsewhere online or out marching in protest in complete opposition to his viewpoints.

Hell, we just had a big protest rally this weekend in Los Angeles -- and there were others around the country, too -- in support of the Iranians seeking true democratic change. So, here's what I'd love to see. I'd love to see Joe Klein standing up in the middle of one of THOSE crowds and stating his view (and these are his words): "The protesters (in Iran) admire our freedom, but they are appalled -- and insulted -- by our neocolonialist condescension over the past 50 years... They do not believe they live in an Evil Empire. They still support their revolution. They shout "Allahu Akbar" in the streets, which was the rallying cry of 1979. They are proud of their nuclear program, even if many have doubts about the efficacy of weaponizing the enriched uraniam that is being produced."

Riiiiiiiiiiiight. They love things the way they are, and they still support the revolution of 30 years ago. Yes, Joe, and I guess that would explain why half the fucking country is out in the streets setting fire to things and standing up to the military demanding change. Hell, even an AP press story noted the other day: "On the streets, witnesses said protesters shouted "Death to Khamenei!" - another sign of once unthinkable challenges to the authority of the successor of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the father of the Islamic Revolution. "

But nice to know Joe Klein thinks they're all just having a tiny tiff and we should completely keep our mouths closed and not take any sides.

[CreativeMind]

Originally Posted by randolph

To put it as simply as possible, McCain--and his cohorts--are trying to score political points against the President in the midst of an international crisis. It is the sort of behavior that Republicans routinely call "unpatriotic" when Democrats are doing it. I would never question John McCain's patriotism, no matter how misguided his sense of the country's best interests sometimes seems. His behavior has nothing to do with love of country; it has everything to do with love of self. Repubs are just passing the same old shit.

Well, wait a minute...let me get this straight. FIRST you say you won't question McCain's patriotism, which by pure definition means you feel he's doing or saying things because he genuinely loves his country, which in turn means that the ideas he's expressing are what he REALLY believes deep in his heart ARE in the best interests of the country...

...BUT THEN you want to turn right around and say "His behavior has nothing to do with love of country; it has everything to do with love of self." No offense, Randolph, but you can't have it both ways. You can't try to sound like the nice guy and say "I respect McCain for his service to his country and I won't question his patriotism", but then instantly stab him in the back and say "He's only doing this for himself." The two statements just don't jive.

And for the record, what McCain and many of the Republicans are simply doing is staking the SAME ground that Reagan took against military regimes himself. As others have noted, the best parallel for Iran right now would be Poland during the Reagan years, where the people likewise staged a political revolt because of constantly shitty and corrupt elections. And frankly, I do think Obama is taking the wrong path here, all because he's trying to weasel his way and have it both ways. He's trying to say muddled things, send mixed messages, so that no matter who comes out on top he can then say "See! I was on your side all along."

To that end, I respect what Reagan did a helluva lot more, when he basically went on national TV and in a televised speech essentially told the Polish government in no uncertain terms: "Get your shit together and have fair elections and respect the will of the people and let democracy be respected or else the United States will cut you off in a heartbeat. And even after we cut you off, then we'll do whatever we can to repeatedly fuck you over again and again just to ram the point home."

Now THAT was a President showing some balls and taking a stand FOR an emerging democratic movement when it needed emotional support the most. For being a former college professor, Obama could certainly learn a few things from the history books.

[tslust]

Originally Posted by CreativeMind

And frankly, I do think Obama is taking the wrong path here, all because he's trying to weasel his way and have it both ways. He's trying to say muddled things, send mixed messages, so that no matter who comes out on top he can then say "See! I was on your side all along."

I couldn't agree more.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

To put it as simply as possible, McCain--and his cohorts--are trying to score political points against the President in the midst of an international crisis. It is the sort of behavior that Republicans routinely call "unpatriotic" when Democrats are doing it. I would never question John McCain's patriotism, no matter how misguided his sense of the country's best interests sometimes seems. His behavior has nothing to do with love of country; it has everything to do with love of self.

Repubs are just passing the same old shit.

Obama hasn't really done anything yet, and I doubt anything you or I say will compromise BO's foreign policy. For the last 8 years I've been hearing democrats criticize Bush's policies, but I've never heard them say what should be done when a crisis comes up before action is taken. Dems are great at criticizing and monday morning quarterbacking, but rarely state what should be done before there's something to criticize or rally behind.

So tell me, what do you think Obama should do with regards to Iran and N. Korea?

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Obama hasn't really done anything yet, and I doubt anything you or I say will compromise BO's foreign policy. For the last 8 years I've been hearing democrats criticize Bush's policies, but I've never heard them say what should be done when a crisis comes up before action is taken. Dems are great at criticizing and monday morning quarterbacking, but rarely state what should be done before there's something to criticize or rally behind.

So tell me, what do you think Obama should do with regards to Iran and N. Korea?

You never get the point, do you, Tracy? Well, sucker on in your republican and worldly limited bliss of complete lack of understanding of what's really going on here. The fact is that America is not alone in this world. But I doubt you'll ever understand the geo-political truths to that statement. And what's worse, I doubt you give a shit...

This is about a change in paradigms, NOT about what would your republican candidate have done differently...

Luckily and to your irritation, I'm sure, I've had my chance to explain the concepts first hands with quite a few Americans, and fact is that once they are truly educated about the mechanisms of socialism contra capitalism, they begin to understand that Barack Obama is far from socialism. But he does share a world's care for the reasonability in having a society, where all citizens are equal and none "more equal than others" in their opportunities.

I'm speaking to unlistening ears, I'm certain.

America has been on the verge of becoming a police-state - as Jesse Ventura said it: Fascism by definition is when corporate money, religious right and government team up to rule as they please. Add to that the former administration's doctrines that allowed them to enter other contries without an explained reason. Iraq is a formiddable example.

Barack Obama brings humanism back into the American way again (an old virtue of your own country's history, Tracy) and I feel sad about the backlashing republican rightwingers. But I guess you'll be around for a while.

H

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Obama hasn't really done anything yet, and I doubt anything you or I say will compromise BO's foreign policy. For the last 8 years I've been hearing democrats criticize Bush's policies, but I've never heard them say what should be done when a crisis comes up before action is taken. Dems are great at criticizing and monday morning quarterbacking, but rarely state what should be done before there's something to criticize or rally behind.

So tell me, what do you think Obama should do with regards to Iran and N. Korea?

Welll, bomb the shit out of them, what else?